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Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 15 Feb 2013, 10:30
by Yannick
There are not many ChampCar teams left (KV and Coyne) in what was supposed to be a merged series back in 2008. Yes, IRL teams have dissolved, too, but not so many.
Pacific Coast Motorsports
Newman/Haas (now a contractor to Dragon Racing - have they still got hopes for a return under their own power?)
Conquest
HVM Racing (now a contractor to Andretti, which is exactly what Conquest used to be last year; it looks like Viso's ties with Wiggins' team turned the Conquest/Andretti partnership to history)
On the other side, there is Hemelgarn (which only used to be a mere shadow of its former self anyway) and Vision Racing (which later turned into Ed Carpenter Racing by ways of an arrangement with Derrick Walker's organisation).
We won't see the ChampCar teams battling it out with the IRL teams anymore. It's back to the "big 3" vs the rest of the field now.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 15 Feb 2013, 15:41
by Wallio
Well really, isn't that the point of a merged series? Pre 1996 there were no "Irl teams" or "CART Teams" it was Penske (still here), Ganassi (ditto), Team Kool Green (which is Andretti after two name changes), and Newman-Haas (sadly defunct) versus everyone else. And now with the different engines, track balance being close to 50/50 and the Triple Crown returning, if we can get Surfers and Newman-Haas back, it will be like 1996 never happened.....
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 15 Feb 2013, 20:06
by Ferrarist
Wallio wrote:[...]it will be like 1996 never happened.....
Sorry, but some things are probably irreversible. Like ISC's ownership of many key oval racing tracks like Homestead, Phoenix, Michigan or Chicagoland (I "conveniently" left out Fontana, since IndyCar has somehow managed to get a race there). Or NASCAR sucking up the young, aspiring American drivers, or sponsorship money. There is a looooooooooong road to get back to the pre-1996 state.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 15 Feb 2013, 20:21
by Wallio
Ferrarist wrote:Wallio wrote:[...]it will be like 1996 never happened.....
Sorry, but some things are probably irreversible. Like ISC's ownership of many key oval racing tracks like Homestead, Phoenix, Michigan or Chicagoland (I "conveniently" left out Fontana, since IndyCar has somehow managed to get a race there). Or NASCAR sucking up the young, aspiring American drivers, or sponsorship money. There is a looooooooooong road to get back to the pre-1996 state.
Well yes, obviously but remember it was less than 15 years that Penske would NEVER return to Indy, and less than 10 years that Tony George said the IRL would NEVER run road courses. And a mere 2 1/2 years ago when Doc Mattioli answered by question at a chariety luncheon by saying Indycars would NEVER run at Pocono again. So progress is being made.
ISC owning tracks is going to be tough to get around, but I can see Indycar returning to Watkins Glen (now that Pocono has the July 4th weekend date that the Glen hated) and possibly even Michigan, although thats more of a longshot. Sponsors will come back, little by little if/when the economy improves. In another 10 years, Indy could be back to health. Or it could turn into a one race anything goes series based on the 500. This first Randy-less season is the key.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 04 Mar 2013, 21:13
by nome66
CLOSE THE OTHER THREAD PLZ OR MERGE THEM
anyways, saw WindTunnel last night. Heard Robin Miller speak about Post-Randy IndyCzar's plans for '13/'14. not sure how i feel.
http://www.usnews.com/news/sports/artic ... ndycar-ims
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 04 Mar 2013, 21:23
by SeedStriker
In short, the article said that the plans are to return to the IRL formula but with the NASCAR Chase format by the end, all international races would be non-championship and the tickets for the 500 would cost 50% more than normal...
... and that would destroy once and for all the open-wheeler premier series in the US. This is what happens when beaurocreats try to run a sport.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 04 Mar 2013, 21:40
by Ferrarist
Just let NASCAR buy the whole place, so we can finally get it over with.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 14:11
by Yannick
Ferrarist wrote:Just let NASCAR buy the whole place, so we can finally get it over with.
Sorry Sir, but that attitude is so crapwagon. My guess is there will be a lot of good racing this season.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 16:05
by Wallio
SeedStriker wrote:In short, the article said that the plans are to return to the IRL formula but with the NASCAR Chase format by the end, all international races would be non-championship and the tickets for the 500 would cost 50% more than normal...
... and that would destroy once and for all the open-wheeler premier series in the US. This is what happens when beaurocreats try to run a sport.
Where do you get that? The IRL was an all-oval All-American series (both tracks and drivers). The report clearly says run road courses and forgien races.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 16:43
by SeedStriker
Wallio wrote:SeedStriker wrote:In short, the article said that the plans are to return to the IRL formula but with the NASCAR Chase format by the end, all international races would be non-championship and the tickets for the 500 would cost 50% more than normal...
... and that would destroy once and for all the open-wheeler premier series in the US. This is what happens when beaurocreats try to run a sport.
Where do you get that? The IRL was an all-oval All-American series (both tracks and drivers). The report clearly says run road courses and forgien races.
As non-championship events. US racing culture is ovals (NASCAR proves that), and the Indy 500 is the prime event for Indy Car. Taking the road of more road curses was the solution on the CART days, when the races were better than F1. Doing that right now is suicidal, especially if the calendar crosses with F1 weekends. Right now, IRL should do a calendar with 50/50 in road curses and ovals, but with only 6 ovals against 13 circuits there's no balance at all. Worst of all, only Indy and Texas are the only pedal-to-the-metal ovals. That's sad.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 17:25
by FMecha
Ferrarist wrote:Just let NASCAR buy the whole place, so we can finally get it over with.
Why you think so?
Around late 2012
USA Today ran an article suggesting that idea. But I don't like that idea, because NASCAR would be the "dictator" of US motorsport.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 18:00
by Wallio
SeedStriker wrote:Wallio wrote:SeedStriker wrote:In short, the article said that the plans are to return to the IRL formula but with the NASCAR Chase format by the end, all international races would be non-championship and the tickets for the 500 would cost 50% more than normal...
... and that would destroy once and for all the open-wheeler premier series in the US. This is what happens when beaurocreats try to run a sport.
Where do you get that? The IRL was an all-oval All-American series (both tracks and drivers). The report clearly says run road courses and forgien races.
As non-championship events. US racing culture is ovals (NASCAR proves that), and the Indy 500 is the prime event for Indy Car. Taking the road of more road curses was the solution on the CART days, when the races were better than F1. Doing that right now is suicidal, especially if the calendar crosses with F1 weekends. Right now, IRL should do a calendar with 50/50 in road curses and ovals, but with only 6 ovals against 13 circuits there's no balance at all. Worst of all, only Indy and Texas are the only pedal-to-the-metal ovals. That's sad.
USAC and CART were NEVER all oval, ever. Although admittedly USAC only ever ran 2 road courses per per year (then later 3). CART was always 50/50 then 60/40 towards the twisties. And yes oval racing is king in America, but only if your NASCAR (and they've been struggling). USAR, WOO, INDYCAR, none of them draw to ovals, which is a shame as the racing is quite good, especially in INDYCAR and W00. The reason the IRL added its first three road courses in '04/'05 after Tony George swore up and down that the IRL would NEVER run them, was sponsors forced him to, because ovals simple don't draw and many companys were sick on the races on TV having all empty seats. The ill fated Champ Car World series was horribly mismanged, but it had higher attendence per race (except for Indy of course, nothing outdraws Indy, NOTHING) Hell, The Las Vegas race where Dan Wheldon was killed had less than 50% capaicty and they gave away more than 10,000 FREE tickets! Only Texas brings a crowd, and that's thank's to Eddie Gossage. Pocono this year may draw. Maybe. The reason is that the cars are too horribly detuned on Ovals. 600bhp isn't nearly enough. Will Power said it best, half the downforce on ovals and give them 850bhp and watch the crowds show up.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 18:29
by Onxy Wrecked
Wallio wrote:
USAC and CART were NEVER all oval, ever. Although admittedly USAC only ever ran 2 road courses per per year (then later 3). CART was always 50/50 then 60/40 towards the twisties. And yes oval racing is king in America, but only if your NASCAR (and they've been struggling). USAR, WOO, INDYCAR, none of them draw to ovals, which is a shame as the racing is quite good, especially in INDYCAR and W00. The reason the IRL added its first three road courses in '04/'05 after Tony George swore up and down that the IRL would NEVER run them, was sponsors forced him to, because ovals simple don't draw and many companys were sick on the races on TV having all empty seats. The ill fated Champ Car World series was horribly mismanged, but it had higher attendence per race (except for Indy of course, nothing outdraws Indy, NOTHING) Hell, The Las Vegas race where Dan Wheldon was killed had less than 50% capaicty and they gave away more than 10,000 FREE tickets! Only Texas brings a crowd, and that's thank's to Eddie Gossage. Pocono this year may draw. Maybe. The reason is that the cars are too horribly detuned on Ovals. 600bhp isn't nearly enough. Will Power said it best, half the downforce on ovals and give them 850bhp and watch the crowds show up.
The cars are underpowered for insurance reasons as the companies will not pay for injuries to fans if the cars have 850bhp as the speeds would exceed 235 mp/h at Indianapolis (insurance won't cover the speedway over 230 mp/h these days) and Texas would be the greying out issue of the Firehawk 600 where drivers complained of vision distortions such as tunnel vision and lose of color vision at those speeds.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 18:37
by Wallio
Onxy Wrecked wrote:Wallio wrote:
USAC and CART were NEVER all oval, ever. Although admittedly USAC only ever ran 2 road courses per per year (then later 3). CART was always 50/50 then 60/40 towards the twisties. And yes oval racing is king in America, but only if your NASCAR (and they've been struggling). USAR, WOO, INDYCAR, none of them draw to ovals, which is a shame as the racing is quite good, especially in INDYCAR and W00. The reason the IRL added its first three road courses in '04/'05 after Tony George swore up and down that the IRL would NEVER run them, was sponsors forced him to, because ovals simple don't draw and many companys were sick on the races on TV having all empty seats. The ill fated Champ Car World series was horribly mismanged, but it had higher attendence per race (except for Indy of course, nothing outdraws Indy, NOTHING) Hell, The Las Vegas race where Dan Wheldon was killed had less than 50% capaicty and they gave away more than 10,000 FREE tickets! Only Texas brings a crowd, and that's thank's to Eddie Gossage. Pocono this year may draw. Maybe. The reason is that the cars are too horribly detuned on Ovals. 600bhp isn't nearly enough. Will Power said it best, half the downforce on ovals and give them 850bhp and watch the crowds show up.
The cars are underpowered for insurance reasons as the companies will not pay for injuries to fans if the cars have 850bhp as the speeds would exceed 235 mp/h at Indianapolis (insurance won't cover the speedway over 230 mp/h these days) and Texas would be the greying out issue of the Firehawk 600 where drivers complained of vision distortions such as tunnel vision and lose of color vision at those speeds.
I am aware of the Indy insurance as Robin Miller said that's why they were so slow this year. Texas would be fine if they cut the downforce. the problem with the CART race (besides the at the time, new banking) was that they ran max wings and were full throttle throughout. Make the drivers brake in the corners and they be fine. Again several drivers themselves have said they should do this. To me that makes it worth looking at.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 19:18
by Ferrarist
Yannick wrote:Ferrarist wrote:Just let NASCAR buy the whole place, so we can finally get it over with.
Sorry Sir, but that attitude is so crapwagon. My guess is there will be a lot of good racing this season.
So? TNA Wrestling also offers a good product, but WWE's ratings are superior. The reason is not only WWE's better marketing abilities, but WWE as an organization is run way better than TNA. NASCAR knows how to run things, up to the point where even their Truck races get better or similar ratings than IndyCar races. Therefore, I feel that NASCAR could also be successful with an open-wheel series. They basically need to apply the NASCAR formula to IndyCar (which ironically the IRL sort-of used before. For example, Menards and Kelley Racing build the Oldsmobile engines. Cheever Racing also built their own Infinits later on.), in terms of independent suppliers that is. But more important is that NASCAR could send IndyCar through their marketing machinery, therefore raising its value to the public eye.
Not to mention that NASCAR might still need to keep IndyCar around after a buyout. They may own Indycar and the speedway, but they can't really afford turning the Indy 500 into another Cup race. It's actually impossible, because NASCAR already has an established race on memorial day, the Coke 600.
Of course I'd like to see someone else buying IndyCar, but who? Maybe Warren Buffett, who may turn a profit with Indy. Hell, even Mitt Romney might be better for IndyCar than the HulmanGeorges. He may have some time to spare after all
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 19:22
by FMecha
Ferrarist wrote:Yannick wrote:Ferrarist wrote:Just let NASCAR buy the whole place, so we can finally get it over with.
Sorry Sir, but that attitude is so crapwagon. My guess is there will be a lot of good racing this season.
So? TNA Wrestling also offers a good product, but WWE's ratings are superior. The reason is not only WWE's better marketing abilities, but WWE as an organization is run way better than TNA. NASCAR knows how to run things, up to the point where even their Truck races get better or similar ratings than IndyCar races. Therefore, I feel that NASCAR could also be successful with an open-wheel series...
But motorsport and wrestling are "apples and oranges", Ferrarist. They are way to different to compare.
Also, are you aware of
NASCAR Speedway Division, their attempt at open-wheelers? It does not sound like a success.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 19:28
by Ferrarist
FMecha wrote:But motorsport and wrestling are "apples and oranges", Ferrarist. They are way to different to compare.
I think that comparision has some validity, due to similar constellations in pro wrestling and auto racing (In the US). One, large, successful company versus the other, smaller and not-so-successful company.
I know, but this was at a time where Indy was the pinnacle of American racing, while NASCAR was still relatively fresh. I think I already said it in the 2012 thread, but the IRL races in Charlotte or Atlanta were fairly popular. At least until the IRL started throwing debris into the grandstands, and decided not to come back (CART on the other hand kept racing in Michigan until 2001). Which is a shame, because they could have formed a long, vital relationship with Bruton Smith there.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 05 Mar 2013, 21:26
by nome66
FMecha wrote:But motorsport and wrestling are "apples and oranges", Ferrarist. They are way to different to compare.
america begs to differ
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 06 Mar 2013, 02:44
by Cynon
Ferrarist wrote:FMecha wrote:I know, but this was at a time where Indy was the pinnacle of American racing, while NASCAR was still relatively fresh. I think I already said it in the 2012 thread, but the IRL races in Charlotte or Atlanta were fairly popular. At least until the IRL started throwing debris into the grandstands, and decided not to come back (CART on the other hand kept racing in Michigan until 2001). Which is a shame, because they could have formed a long, vital relationship with Bruton Smith there.
The IRL was not very popular in Atlanta... you'd get a bigger crowd at Atlanta for a NASCAR truck race.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 06 Mar 2013, 17:48
by Wallio
Cynon wrote:
The IRL was not very popular in Atlanta... you'd get a bigger crowd at Atlanta for a NASCAR truck race.
Yea nobody came to Atlanta or Lowe's when they ran there. Michigan used to draw, but I doubt they'll go back as long as Belle Isle is around. And Gil De Ferran when asked to comment about this study simply said "It's simple. Make the cars beasts again." I agree.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 06 Mar 2013, 17:52
by nome66
it's sad when the pacecar has more horsepower than the pole driver's qualifying car.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 06 Mar 2013, 18:38
by Ferrarist
Cynon wrote:The IRL was not very popular in Atlanta... you'd get a bigger crowd at Atlanta for a NASCAR truck race.
According to this (
http://brainerddispatch.com/stories/071 ... 0024.shtml), the IRL drew 42.000 fans at their 1998 debut. Which I don't consider as a bad number, given that the IRL was just two years old. Yes, the facility can house more than 100.000 people, but did anyone really expect the IRL to draw that much on their first date? The ill-fated 1999 VisionAire 500K in Charlotte drew 50.000 fans, which is a decent number for a race in deep NASCAR country. Had the track promoters put a bit more effort into promoting the IRL, and had the IRL not started having large accidents at these tracks, IndyCar might have two more races on their schedule, which actually draws money.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 08 Mar 2013, 09:54
by Yannick
Ferrarist wrote:Cynon wrote:The IRL was not very popular in Atlanta... you'd get a bigger crowd at Atlanta for a NASCAR truck race.
According to this (
http://brainerddispatch.com/stories/071 ... 0024.shtml), the IRL drew 42.000 fans at their 1998 debut. Which I don't consider as a bad number, given that the IRL was just two years old. Yes, the facility can house more than 100.000 people, but did anyone really expect the IRL to draw that much on their first date? The ill-fated 1999 VisionAire 500K in Charlotte drew 50.000 fans, which is a decent number for a race in deep NASCAR country. Had the track promoters put a bit more effort into promoting the IRL, and had the IRL not started having large accidents at these tracks, IndyCar might have two more races on their schedule, which actually draws money.
Well, if not for the accident at Las Vegas, IRL would still have that track on the schedule, too. And who knows, maybe without the decision to go green in the rain in the closing stages of the race at Loudon, they might still have that track, too.
I wonder now after the Nationwide series accident at Daytona whether NASCAR regret having made so many tracks faster through repaving them with a different asphalt, like has been the case with at least Michigan, Phoenix and Las Vegas. That surely played a part in enabling the 3-wide pack racing at Las Vegas on that sad day, too.
Luckily, the new race director Barfield does not like pack racing, unlike the old Barnhart.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 08 Mar 2013, 18:42
by Ferrarist
Even though Las Vegas (As well as Charlotte and Atlanta) is owned by Bruton Smith, so NASCAR isn't completely responsible for the repaving. Smith really pushed the IRL in its early days, yet they managed to deliver at least one screw-up on each of his tracks (Remember Kenny Bräck's crash at Texas in 2003?). Maybe he should buy IndyCar, in order to gain more leverage against NASCAR and their ISC?
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 09 Mar 2013, 17:41
by nome66
unrelated to the current discussion happening, you'll notice something pleasant abaout the layout of the belle isle track here:
http://www.indycar.com/Schedule/2013/IZ ... Grand-Prix
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 12 Mar 2013, 18:00
by Wallio
I give, what's pleasant about it?
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 12 Mar 2013, 19:49
by nome66
it's the layout that CART used and IndyCzar was too stupid to use until now.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 13 Mar 2013, 08:18
by F1000X
nome66 wrote:it's the layout that CART used and IndyCzar was too stupid to use until now.
Care to remind us how the racing was? Have they made any improvements to racing surface as well?
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 13 Mar 2013, 15:10
by Wallio
nome66 wrote:it's the layout that CART used and IndyCzar was too stupid to use until now.
Oh course! (headdesk for not remembering) I seem to recall it was quite racy, although that might be the Rose-Colored Glasses talking. Yet another throwback to the pre-1996 days. I love it!
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 13 Mar 2013, 20:04
by nome66
well.... throwback to the 1998-2002 era of CART, really haha
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 15 Mar 2013, 02:41
by nome66
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 19 Mar 2013, 18:38
by Wallio
nome66 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvAPdsK9uE4
As am I. Its about time. I'm not happy with the P2P rules for this year. Its still not available on ovals (dumb!) and can only be used ten times per race, for 15 secs a shot for half the races and 20 seconds a shot for the other half. I still say they should use the Champ Car system where you get X seconds per race and can use as much or as little per shot as you want. But that makes too much sense I guess......
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 19 Mar 2013, 19:54
by nome66
or just implement KERS or something that can be used anywhere at anytime
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 19 Mar 2013, 20:33
by Wallio
nome66 wrote:or just implement KERS or something that can be used anywhere at anytime
That was the way the old CCWS system was, you could use it anywhere for any amount of time, as long as you had it left. It was awesome, some guys would use it off the start, while others would save it for the last 10 or so laps. It was neat trying to keep track of who had how much left. Of course the old CCWS system also gave them 825bhp, so its all a pipedream I guess......
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 21 Mar 2013, 18:45
by Shadaza
I am annoyed that Indy Car is being broadcast on ESPN here in the UK. There is no way I will be paying for it
. I hope the 500 will be free to air.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 22 Mar 2013, 18:11
by nome66
http://www.indycar.com/News/2013/03/3-2 ... ry-sponsornot crazy about that livery there, but then again i'm not so crazy about all the stuff we were supposed to get this season but didn't, so i'm greatful we have this livery
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 23 Mar 2013, 16:05
by F1000X
I wonder how many points Power will blow the championship by this year.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 23 Mar 2013, 21:08
by Hound55
It's a shame that de Silvestro was stuck with that awful Lotus all last year. She qualified 3rd for St. Petersburg! Good starts for Sato and rookie Vautier, too.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 23 Mar 2013, 23:06
by Dj_bereta
Sato will try to overtakes Power in first corner for sure.
Also, Simona is proving that she is a very good adition to KV, instead of "racing in indy only for increasing the chances of a F-1 comeback" Barrichello and "Big Sponsors, Big Repair Bill" Viso.
Re: The Alessandro Zanardi IndyCar Thread
Posted: 24 Mar 2013, 19:16
by RealRacingRoots
HINCHTOWN!!
Also shoutout to Simona de Silvestro for nearly getting third on her shot tires, she can be very happy with sixth.