Grand Prix Rejects

If Red Bull promotes Gasly over Sainz I will personally go down and slap Helmut Marko myself. I don't know why people seem to think Sainz has underperformed to me this season, he's done just fine at Renault. And honestly as impressive as Gasly has been at times, apart from Bahrain, Monaco and Hungary I don't remember anything of his season so far. Its too early for him and Sainz has deserved a chance at promotion for nearly two years now and God they need someone to drive at Torro Rosso.

You'd think Ricciardo would be sick of their engines, but he obviously doesn't fancy Honda much. I suspect he's had promises of the team being built around him, which isn't good news for Hulkenberg.

Carlos Sainz is probably the only guy who isn't sleeping softly after today's news. Everyone else who is not currently signed up for next year is eyeing up some top seats all of a sudden! Except Sainz, who's going to be phoning his agent all night.

I was actually expecting this switch as he will be the number one driver without a doubt. Renault have been good so far at bringing performance to the car, plus they were double world champions in the last era. By working immediately with the manufacturer he can doubtless influence the engine building.

When you think about it Red Bull have been unable to make that leap forward, is it the engines? Not really sure but Honda is certainly a huge risk. Then there's the Verstappen pandering that Horner & Co have done, despite the fact that Ricciardo has beaten both Vettel and Verstappen over a season in the past.

Ricciardo will bring knowledge of the Red Bull upgrades and chassis with him which will do nothing but assist Renault move forward. For Red Bull smart money will be on Gasly lifting up though I agree that Sainz has done little wrong and the team of Verstappen and Sainz was terrific at Toro Rosso, so the pair at the lead team would be a good stop gap until 2021 when regulations change and we might have a couple of retirees to blood in the newer drivers.

Samster wrote:If Red Bull promotes Gasly over Sainz I will personally go down and slap Helmut Marko myself. I don't know why people seem to think Sainz has underperformed to me this season, he's done just fine at Renault. And honestly as impressive as Gasly has been at times, apart from Bahrain, Monaco and Hungary I don't remember anything of his season so far. Its too early for him and Sainz has deserved a chance at promotion for nearly two years now and God they need someone to drive at Torro Rosso.

I think that it is more of a case that people believe that Red Bull will not want Sainz to partner with Verstappen for different reasons - namely, the talk that Sainz and Verstappen had such a toxic relationship at Toro Rosso that nobody wants to try to put them in the same team again, along with the talk that Sainz might have antagonised Red Bull's senior management with the way that he handled the deal with Renault.

Bathplug Sainz and Gasly and promote Brendon Hartley instead

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:Bathplug Sainz and Gasly and promote Brendon Hartley instead

Strangely, that is a suggestion I saw while combing through the comments on motorsport.com (while looking for another of our... how can I put this... "slightly more antagonistic" ex-members), and have him there as Max's obedient lackey for a couple of seasons while Pierre Gasly sorts his racecraft out at Toro Rosso.

Of course, the way Red Bull works, the deal to put Gasly as Max's team-mate for next year was signed and sealed within a nanosecond of Daniel Ricciardo putting pen to paper at Renault, but it was a nice off-the-wall idea.

Thinking about what a few people have been saying about Verstappen/Sainz being a "toxic" combo the way they were at Torro Rosso. Surely over the past couple of years they have both matured a lot, and could be workable?

Samster wrote:If Red Bull promotes Gasly over Sainz I will personally go down and slap Helmut Marko myself. I don't know why people seem to think Sainz has underperformed to me this season, he's done just fine at Renault. And honestly as impressive as Gasly has been at times, apart from Bahrain, Monaco and Hungary I don't remember anything of his season so far. Its too early for him and Sainz has deserved a chance at promotion for nearly two years now and God they need someone to drive at Torro Rosso.

Totally agree - I think Gasly has always been vastly over-rated. I would go for Sainz over him any day of the week.

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:Bathplug Sainz and Gasly and promote Brendon Hartley instead

Obviously I agree with this even more! Though in reality even if this unlikely scenario happened he would probably continue to get rotten luck and would be thrown aside rapidly a la Kvyat.

I think Gasly is pretty good, but in all honesty, he hasn't actually done a full season of races yet. I think there's going to be a lot of discussion before they (probably) put him in the car for next season.

Isn't it sad that a 22-year-old is basically on the cusp of making or breaking his career? I mean, if he doesn't get the drive, it's probable that this shunning might basically end Gasly's chance at a top drive forever, due to the sheer pace the Red Bull machine, and the mad influx of junior drivers.

Rob Dylan wrote:Isn't it sad that a 22-year-old is basically on the cusp of making or breaking his career?

Such is the way of F1 these days. Jaime Alguersuari was on the F1 scrapheap aged 21 and his racing career was over at 25 - and Max Verstappen's arrival on the scene aged 17 has only upped that ante even further. I've also not forgotten a satirical article in one of the BBC's last season guides that said Lewis Hamilton's son would start his first F1 race aged eight (though they also said Nicole Scherzinger would be his mum so they were wrong about that at least...)

Back in the days when we had to get up before we'd gone to bed and it was uphill going t't pit and uphill coming back and we had to pay t'pit owner to work there for 29 hours a day, I remember Jean Alesi who didn't start in F1 until he was 25 and Murray Walker described him as a "young charger" until he was 30... and if you tell that to these young kids these days, they won't believe you. They won't!

And how old were Damon Hill and Roland Ratzenberger on their debuts? They weren't young debutants either, were they?

dr-baker wrote:And how old were Damon Hill and Roland Ratzenberger on their debuts? They weren't young debutants either, were they?

Damon Hill was 31 years, 7 months and 16 days old on the Saturday of his F1 début when he failed to qualify for the 1992 Spanish GP.

Nico Rosberg was 31 years, 5 months and 1 day old when he finished the 2016 Abu Dhabi GP as a World Champion after 11 years and 206 race starts in Formula 1.

Of the 24 drivers that raced in 2016, Rosberg was the sixth oldest. The other 18 drivers were under 30 years old.

Someone should do a over-30 and under-30 in the Black Stig forum, should be interesting to follow!


E: Just for a fun comparison, in touring cars the top two drivers in the World right now have the combined age of 104 years...

Looks like Force India is aboot to become Force Canada, eh.

In the next few days: Lance Stroll to don the lurid pink racing suit, Sergio Pérez to stay and actually get the results on the board, Esteban Ocon to be charged with dragging a complete mutt of a Williams to a points finish and report to Merc about everything that's wrong with it so they know what not to do next season, then bide his time until Lewis says "I'm off to be a rapper, innit" after his eighth World Championship. By that time Valtteri Bottas will be in Super GT and the Ocon-Russell partnership Merc wanted will be in place.

Looks pretty accurate to me, Ocon is the loser here as look what happened to Werhlein's career when being Merc's sleeper in the lower cars

dinizintheoven wrote:Looks like Force India is aboot to become Force Canada, eh.

In the next few days: Lance Stroll to don the lurid pink racing suit, Sergio Pérez to stay and actually get the results on the board, Esteban Ocon to be charged with dragging a complete mutt of a Williams to a points finish and report to Merc about everything that's wrong with it so they know what not to do next season, then bide his time until Lewis says "I'm off to be a rapper, innit" after his eighth World Championship. By that time Valtteri Bottas will be in Super GT and the Ocon-Russell partnership Merc wanted will be in place.

It is one of those developments that, whilst it is extremely positive in the sense that it means several hundred people at Force India will be safe and the team might finally start getting a decent amount of investment, it could also well spell disaster for Williams.

After this development, it looks like Williams are going to be facing multiple hefty financial hits for 2019 - Martini are withdrawing their sponsorship at the end of this year, their prize money payments are going to fall due to their poor WCC performance this year and now it looks like Stroll's investment, and potentially some sponsors which might have come to the team on the back of that, are going to be going with Stroll to Force India.

It's an odd situation where I am left feeling a little conflicted about this - I'm glad for what it means for everybody working at Force India, but at the same time it's left me wondering whether it's really just shifted the problems of financial inequalities within the sport from one team to another.

Williams are, if nothing else, a pretty determined team, but now it looks like it's pretty much essential for them that Liberty Media levels out the payment structure of the sport - if the redistribution of wealth is less than expected, how long might it be before we see Williams entering administration?

sswishbone wrote:Looks pretty accurate to me, Ocon is the loser here as look what happened to Werhlein's career when being Merc's sleeper in the lower cars

To some extent, I think that the other problem there for Wehrlein was his relative performance to Ericsson - he was only marginally faster, and his performance advantage was slight enough that it could potentially be explained by the fact that Ericsson had to run slightly over the minimum weight limit, being the heavier driver, whilst Wehrlein could run at the minimum weight limit. Whilst it was true that the car itself didn't really give him many opportunities, I think that there was a feeling that he'd been pretty underwhelming when compared to Ericsson, who often isn't held up as much of a benchmark to begin with.

If i was Sir Frank, i grab Stroll from behind and put a foot in his ass rigth now, and finally give Kubica his chance.

Aguvazk wrote:If i was Sir Frank, i grab Stroll from behind and put a foot in his ass rigth now, and finally give Kubica his chance.

That'll require some Heath Robinson levels of complicated machinery...

As an amendment to my previous post, the number of people not sleeping well at night has gone from Sainz to:

- Sainz.
- Esteban Ocon.
- The Williams team.


However, the rejectful lining on the cloud would be that Williams might start getting some interesting hires in the coming year! Bring on the grand return of Rio Haryanto; the one-race bonanza of Sean Galael and a Williams car with a giant KFC logo on the side; Sette Camara at Brazil; but best of all, Ferdinand Bloody Habsburg taking up the mantle of Prince Bira, bringing real-life royalty and glamour to F1!

Rob Dylan wrote:As an amendment to my previous post, the number of people not sleeping well at night has gone from Sainz to:

- Sainz.
- Esteban Ocon.
- The Williams team.


However, the rejectful lining on the cloud would be that Williams might start getting some interesting hires in the coming year! Bring on the grand return of Rio Haryanto; the one-race bonanza of Sean Galael and a Williams car with a giant KFC logo on the side; Sette Camara at Brazil; but best of all, Ferdinand Bloody Habsburg taking up the mantle of Prince Bira, bringing real-life royalty and glamour to F1!

Mate, why stop there? Do you not want to see America's latest hotshot Santino Ferrucci represent the American faithful in Austin? Or witness the progeny from two of the very best to grace an F1 car, Louis Deletraz and Roy Nissany???

I support all these suggestions.

A quick glance at the current driver standings suggests that, out of the bottom twelve drivers, the only guaranteed bum in seat for next year right now, sadly, is Stroll in a Force India.

I hope someone gives Sir Frank Williams a sword

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:I hope someone gives Sir Frank Williams a sword

Her Madge already did, in 1999...

Rob Dylan wrote:However, the rejectful lining on the cloud would be that Williams might start getting some interesting hires in the coming year! Bring on the grand return of Rio Haryanto

I am rather certain that Haryanto was sacked because his sponsors didn't pay up. In the pay-driver-o-rama that the Williams seat will be, he is not a player.

But true though
[url]
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/243 ... uses-chaos[/url]

So that rules out Alonso from RBR

mario wrote:After this development, it looks like Williams are going to be facing multiple hefty financial hits for 2019 - Martini are withdrawing their sponsorship at the end of this year, their prize money payments are going to fall due to their poor WCC performance this year and now it looks like Stroll's investment, and potentially some sponsors which might have come to the team on the back of that, are going to be going with Stroll to Force India.

Unless Renault decide that they want in on the "have a second team to test potential drivers" game that Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes have going with Haas, Torro Rosso and FI, and make Sir Frank an offer he can't refuse, thus bringing us back to the glorious days of the '90s.

Fetzie wrote:

mario wrote:After this development, it looks like Williams are going to be facing multiple hefty financial hits for 2019 - Martini are withdrawing their sponsorship at the end of this year, their prize money payments are going to fall due to their poor WCC performance this year and now it looks like Stroll's investment, and potentially some sponsors which might have come to the team on the back of that, are going to be going with Stroll to Force India.

Unless Renault decide that they want in on the "have a second team to test potential drivers" game that Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes have going with Haas, Torro Rosso and FI, and make Sir Frank an offer he can't refuse, thus bringing us back to the glorious days of the '90s.

It seems unlikely that Williams would accept that though given they're still determined to do things their way. After all, even the idea of purchasing a gearbox from another team, such as Mercedes, was rejected until fairly recently, and even now they're still not keen on the idea - I'm honestly not sure if he would stomach that idea, or might take the attitude that he'd rather do things his own way, even if the team ultimately fails, rather than become an extension of another team.

Fetzie wrote: Unless Renault decide that they want in on the "have a second team to test potential drivers" game that Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes have going with Haas, Torro Rosso and FI, and make Sir Frank an offer he can't refuse, thus bringing us back to the glorious days of the '90s.

I'm not sure about Renault bring Williams back to any glory days, just ask both parties how Williams' Renault stint a few years ago went. As for being someone else's junior team, I just can't see Sir Frank agreeing to that, he would almost have to be ousted entirely for that to happen.

Pacific 777 wrote:

Fetzie wrote: Unless Renault decide that they want in on the "have a second team to test potential drivers" game that Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes have going with Haas, Torro Rosso and FI, and make Sir Frank an offer he can't refuse, thus bringing us back to the glorious days of the '90s.

I'm not sure about Renault bring Williams back to any glory days, just ask both parties how Williams' Renault stint a few years ago went. As for being someone else's junior team, I just can't see Sir Frank agreeing to that, he would almost have to be ousted entirely for that to happen.

But what would be Claire Williams's view on the matter?

dr-baker wrote:But what would be Claire Williams's view on the matter?

True, but if her and Frank Williams saw differently on the matter, surely his opinion would prevail?

Pacific 777 wrote:

dr-baker wrote:But what would be Claire Williams's view on the matter?

True, but if her and Frank Williams saw differently on the matter, surely his opinion would prevail?

Unless he really was ousted... or other circumstances came into play, like ill health.

http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24365012/fernando-alonso-retire-formula-one-end-season

Well then. That opens up a seat, should be interesting to see how McLaren play this

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/138025/alonso-will-not-race-in-f1-in-2019

Yeah, Alonso's actually leaving F1

Damn, genuinely getting a little emotional here. I'll really, really miss Fernando. I do genuinely think he's still among the best drivers on the grid right now, even at 37, and it will be sad to see such talent wasted without reward for the last decade.

Here's his message (in English). There is also a version in Spanish floating about:
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/1029382931830202368

Autosport is reporting that there is the possibility of an Alonso return in 2020. Likely that in 2019, Alonso will complete the sportscar megaseason, and try to incorporate an IndyCar drive around his Toyota commitment.

For me, it's just one more thing to make me seriously consider whether I'm going to bother following F1 properly in 2019, though it's obviously not a massive surprise.

Not at all surprised with this one. Be nice to see Lando and Stoffel battling over a season though, be very interesting how that turns out.

When was the last time McLaren did not have a current or former F1 world champion driving for the team?

dr-baker wrote:Autosport is reporting that there is the possibility of an Alonso return in 2020. Likely that in 2019, Alonso will complete the sportscar megaseason, and try to incorporate an IndyCar drive around his Toyota commitment.

I would have thought that is unlikely though - I get the sense that, given that he knows the top seats at most teams are now locked out for years, and therefore whatever happens he'd probably be in the same place as he is now if he came back in 2020, he's made up his mind to leave for good.

IceG wrote:When was the last time McLaren did not have a current or former F1 world champion driving for the team?

I guess that would be 2008, when you had Hamilton and Kovalainen, even if Hamilton did win the title that season - before that, you have the period from 2002 to 2006 when they had Raikkonen, de la Rosa, Wurz, Coulthard and Montoya all drive for them.