Reject Engines...

The place for anything and everything else to do with F1 history, different forms of motorsport, and all other randomness
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

Has anyone got any good suggestions for a list of Reject Engines used in Formula One? Those that were disasterous, underpowered or plain rubbish.....Life W12, Porsche V12, Subaru Flat-12 perhaps?? :lol:

For starters id like to submit the "Motori-Moderni V6 Turbo" as used by Minardi in 1986 & 1987 seasons. This beauty was designed by Carlo Chiti.

My first ever F1 GP was the British GP at Brands Hatch in 1986 at the tender age of 9. :oops: il always remember the sheer noise & excitement from the popping gearchanges & exhaust flames as my Dad & I stood at Dingle Dell....

Though the Minardi was a V6 turbo like the majority of the contemporary units, it sounded totally different & didn't posess the smooth melodic note like the other Honda, TAG, Ferrari, Renault & Ford units. The Minardi was also the loudest car in the field by a long way :D I guess thats why i have always remembered it. Never been able to find any decent sound clips sadly!....

Over to the rest of you for some suggestions.... ;)
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by CarlosFerreira »

When I started seeing F1, around 92, I think there was a Lamborghini engine somewhere down the field - maybe in an Arrows-Footwork? It was probably rubbish - disappeared in no time.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
crazydude1992
Posts: 113
Joined: 18 Apr 2009, 09:13

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by crazydude1992 »

The Brabham engine in 1987. Andrea De Cesaris only finished 1 race, the engine would blow up before he could crash :D
Artificial intelligence is no match for F1 rejectdom.
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by CarlosFerreira »

The Lambo F1 engine: it might have been a reasonable engine, but truly a reject history! Suffice to say it was all Chrysler's idea... :lol:

In 1987 Lamborghini was bought by the Chrysler Corporation as part of its international expansion plans. Chrysler President Lee Iacocca decided that the Italian firm should enter Formula 1. Former Ferrari team manager Daniele Audetto was hired to run a new company called Lamborghini Engineering in Bologna and Mauro Forghieri was appointed technical director to oversee the design and construction of a V12 Formula 1 engine for the new 3.5-liter Formula 1 regulations in 1989.

Early in 1988 Lamborghini Engineering announced that it would supply the engines to the Larrousse-Calmels team. The 1989 season was not an easy one but there was a gradual improvement and Philippe Alliot scored a point in Spain in October, soon after Team Lotus did a deal to use the engines in 1990.

At the same time Lamborghini agreed a deal to supply an engine and chassis to Mexican businessman Fernando Gonzalez Luna in 1991. A few months later, as the car was nearing completion, Luna disappeared with the money. The project was sold to industrialist Carlo Patrucco and became known as the Modena Team.

The 1990 season with Larrousse and Lotus was promising with Larrousse's Eric Bernard and Aguri Suzuki picking up points throughout the year, Suzuki gave Lamborghini its first podium finish in Japan and the team finished sixth in the World Championship. Lotus scored only three points.

The Ligier team took over Larrousse's supply in 1991 and Modena Team replaced Lotus but neither team scored points although Eric van de Poele was running fourth at Imola when his car broke. For a short period Forghieri was technical director of Modena Team but then returned to Lamborghini Engineering to work on the development of a 60-valve version of the engine.

With Ligier switching to Renault engines in 1992 and Modena Team closing down, Lamborghini supplied Larrousse and Minardi in 1992. That year a new management took over Chrysler and, with Lamborghini reducing its production, it could not longer afford to fund the F1 program. Chrysler chairman Bob Eaton decided that the engines would be rebadged Chrysler and that the firm would mount a bigger F1 attack in 1994. In the course of 1993 - with only Larrousse still running the engines - Eaton had talks with McLaren's Ron Dennis and McLaren built a test car for Chrysler. In the autumn Ayrton Senna and Mika Hakkinen both tested a white McLaren-Lamborghini test car but at the last minute, however, Dennis decided to enter into McLaren's ill-fated alliance with Peugeot which left Chrysler with no choice but to pull out of F1 as Larrousse had run out of money and could no longer afford the engines.

In November 1993 Chrysler sold Lamborghini to an Indonesian Group called Megatech. The Formula 1 program was canceled.


Source: http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/eng-lambo.html
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
Kuwashima
F1 Rejects Founder
Posts: 310
Joined: 24 Mar 2009, 10:08
Location: Denver, Colorado
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Kuwashima »

I have a soft spot for the 1990 Coloni Subaru, I must say. I have a soft spot for that white, green, red livery, too.
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

The Lamborghini V12's were actually pretty good....just a bit heavy IIRC, & development no doubt suffered as they were only ever powering very mediocre chassis' such as Larrousse, Lotus & Minardi.....they certainly sounded lovely!! ;) :)

Another reject suggestion could be the Yamaha V12 used by Jordan in 1992. This engine was a development of that used by Martin Brundle & Mark Blundell in the 1991 Brabhams. Jordan grabbed the chance of a "manufacturer" engine after customer ford HB's in 1991, but the Yamaha proved to be pretty feeble. I remember reading the Jordans were only just quicker than the best F3000 cars on the straights at Hockenheim, & Mauricio Gugelmin had kindly received a tow from his mate Ayrton Senna in qualifying in a vain attempt to move him up the grid.....Im sure Brian Hart was employed to try & extract more from the Yamaha, but ultimately built his own V10 for Jordan to use in 1993.....

What about the Yamaha V8 used in 1989 by Zakspeed with Bernd Schneider driving??.....anyone know anything about that? :lol:
User avatar
midgrid
Posts: 705
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 19:27
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by midgrid »

chrismc_DC2 wrote:What about the Yamaha V8 used in 1989 by Zakspeed with Bernd Schneider driving??.....anyone know anything about that? :lol:


I think this engine would certainly be a reject candidate! Apparently, the record for shortest failure after fire-up was 30 seconds, and this was at a race weekend. :shock:
"One day Bruno told me that he had heard the engine momentarily making a strange sound; his suspicion was that all the cylinders had been operating."
--Nigel Roebuck
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

I've spoken to a bloke who worked for Lotus in 1990 and who got the job of mapping the Lamborghini V12 engine they were using that season. He said it wasn't too bad, considerably more powerful than the Cosworth, but heavier and with higher fuel consumption. The main problem with it was the complete and utter lack of torque at low revs. Once the thing hit 12000 revs, it would pull like a train but it only revved to 13000 rpm, so the power and torque curves were rubbish.
Last edited by Faustus on 22 Apr 2009, 04:34, edited 2 times in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
User avatar
noisebox
Posts: 705
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 23:24
Location: Bury, UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by noisebox »

Based on this years results, I'd say the Honda engine was a dud in 07 & 08...
"will you stop him playing tennis then?", referring to Montoya's famous shoulder injury, to which Whitmarsh replied "well, it's very difficult to play tennis on a motorbike"
Debaser
Posts: 623
Joined: 28 Mar 2009, 19:03
Location: Enfield,London

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Debaser »

What about the Porsche engine on the Footwork/Arrows in 1991 which was nearly 100kg overweight and was ditched by mid-season???
User avatar
Reverie Planetarian
Posts: 268
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 17:02
Location: In the gravel trap off Turn 4

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Reverie Planetarian »

I have to admit, Life would've been something interesting if it had worked. The W-engine is a charming theory even if it didn't work in those hands. I mean, it's all about weight distribution, right?

Ah, the Lamborghini engine...I still can't tell if it was the car that let the engine down or vice-versa.
Some say he plans to put an S921 on the Goodwood 2012 run, and that he DOES know what Deletraz is doing.
All we know is...he's called Perry McCarthy!

...we'll never see an S921 at Goodwood, will we?
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

noisebox wrote:Based on this years results, I'd say the Honda engine was a dud in 07 & 08...


I know why you think that, but i'd have to disagree..

The Honda F1 engines have always been amongst the strongest...it's the chassis they have developed that have been hopeless....

faustus wrote:I've spoken to a bloke who worked for Lotus in 1990 and who got the job of mapping the Lamborghini V12 engine they were using that season. He said it wasn't too bad, considerably more powerful than the Cosworth, but heavier and with higher fuel consumption. The main problem with it was the complete and utter of torque at low revs. Once the thing hit 12000 revs, it would pull like a train but it only revved to 13000 rpm, so the power and torques were rubbish.


Thats very interesting!! It was always the achillees heel of the V12 3.5L engines that low down torque was poor, though top end power was good.....the exact opposite of the V8's which were punchy & flexible but ran out of breath with top end power.

I guess when you factor in the weight of the engine, fuel consumption (extra fuel to be carried) then its easy to see how the engine could appear worse than it truly was...
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

The Lotus chassis clearly didn't help, because the Larrousses (alright, Lolas) from 1989 and 1990 were good cars and the team scored points in both years. The 1991 Ligier and the 1991 Lambo/Modena were (more than a bit) crap, so even a DFR wouldn't have helped much.
Last edited by Faustus on 19 Jan 2011, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

Faustus wrote:The Lotus chassis clearly didn't help, because the Larrousses from 1989 and 1992 were good cars and the team scored points in both years. The 1991 Ligier and the 1991 Lambo/Modena were a bit crap, so even a DFR wouldn't have helped much.


The 1990 Lotus was a shocker for sure, whereas the Larrousse was quiite reasonable (5th & 6th at Silverstone IIRC?)...

Im sure I read a quote somewhere where Derek Warwick said that Lotus scared him & was the worst F1 car he ever drove. It certainly wasnt that strong judging by Martin Donnellys crash at Jerez :|
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

The turbo Zakspeed was pretty poor, even considering that Zakspeed already had 5 years of experience and development on the engine by the time they started competing in Formula 1 in 1984. The engine had been used in the Zakspeed Ford Capris and C100/4 in the DRM and WSCC. Ford BDT block in that engine, by the way. Curiously the engine worked really well in the C2 division of the WSCC, where it won the championship twice and in rallycross (with insane boost).
Last edited by Faustus on 30 Apr 2009, 06:44, edited 1 time in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

The Yamaha V8s and V12 were pretty rubbish.
The V8 in the Zakspeed was shockingly bad, because the chassis was pretty decent. I remember Zakspeed running an all-white car with a DFR after the 1989 season at a test at Estoril (I was there!), with Bernd Schneider. It set some very decent times, so clearly the engine was the worst part of the package.
The Yamaha V12 took a while to become decent, after a promising start in 1991 with Brabham and an appalling season in the Jordan in 1992. They lopped 2 cylinders off of it and made it into a V10 for 1993, where it showed some promise in the Tyrrell, before an amazing season in 1994 with Tyrrell. I guess the Tyrrell from 1994 flattered the engine as well, as they had a great season. I remember Ukyo Katayama qualifying 5th at Hockenheim.
Last edited by Faustus on 19 Jan 2011, 11:40, edited 3 times in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

What about the almost-certainly-would-have-been-rejects-if-they-had-actually-tried-to-race-them, like the Neotech V12, the MGN W12 and the Isuzu V12?
Last edited by Faustus on 30 Apr 2009, 06:39, edited 1 time in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

Faustus wrote:The turbo Zakspeed was pretty poor, even considering that Zakspeed already had 5 years of experience and development on the engine by the time they started competing in Formula 1 in 1984. The engine had been used in the Zakspeed Ford Capris and C100/4 in the DRM and WSCC. Ford BDT block in that engine, by the way. Curiosuly the engine worked really well in the C2 division of the WSCC, where it won the championship twice and in rallycross (with insane boost).


Very true...I recently saw one of these engines at the museum at the nurburgring whilst over there & it looked really quite well packaged. Another case of a terrible chassis making the engine seem even worse perhaps?

The only really good 4 cyl turbo motor was the BMW in the Benetton in 1986. When they got that fully up to speed by mid season it was very competitive. Alas the same unit in the Brabham was canted at an angle thanks to Gordon Murrays aero-obsession & constantly suffered with oil surge & starvation... :cry:
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

crazydude1992 wrote:The Brabham engine in 1987. Andrea De Cesaris only finished 1 race, the engine would blow up before he could crash :D


This wasn't too bad. Brabham had 2 podiums, if I remember correctly. BMW just din't invest nearly enough into the development of the engine, after the unfortunate fiasco of 1986 and the Brabham BT55.
Last edited by Faustus on 08 Oct 2010, 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

I just can't stop posting! Somebody stop me!
The Osella engine from 1988, essentially a re-badged Alfa Romeo turbo, supposedly further 'developed' by Osella.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
User avatar
noisebox
Posts: 705
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 23:24
Location: Bury, UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by noisebox »

Just remembered the wide angled Renault V10 from 2001 - slow and unreliable, from a manufacturer who were winning world championships only 4 years earlier.
"will you stop him playing tennis then?", referring to Montoya's famous shoulder injury, to which Whitmarsh replied "well, it's very difficult to play tennis on a motorbike"
User avatar
dr-baker
Posts: 15428
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 17:30
Location: Here and there.

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by dr-baker »

I reckon the Peugeot engines from the mid-1990's were pretty poor in both the 1994 McLaren and subsequant Prosts. But there again, all I seem to be able to recall off the top of my head is Brundle's Peugeot detonating off the start-line at the 1994 British GP and Prost in about 1997 or so flying in pre-season testing then being nowhere come the season proper...
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
MCard LOLA
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by CarlosFerreira »

dr-baker wrote:I reckon the Peugeot engines from the mid-1990's were pretty poor in both the 1994 McLaren and subsequant Prosts. But there again, all I seem to be able to recall off the top of my head is Brundle's Peugeot detonating off the start-line at the 1994 British GP and Prost in about 1997 or so flying in pre-season testing then being nowhere come the season proper...


Right. I also seem to remember one of the biggest blow-ups I've seen, effectively ripping the engine cover off. It was probably Blundell driving - I think.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
Debaser
Posts: 623
Joined: 28 Mar 2009, 19:03
Location: Enfield,London

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Debaser »

Prost in 97 did really well...They should have won in Argentina, got 15 points after 6 races when Panis smashed up his legs. And even then Trulli led the Austrian GP as a rookie and would have been 2nd if he didn't break down. But on Peugeot, their 1994 engine sucked. Brundle said in his book the engine was underpowered and unreliable, and often shed its flywheel,which went through the engine and out of the car, sometimes setting fire to the piston rings on the way...and they also pressured McLaren to get rid of Brundle and being in Alliot which is ludicrous, and blamed Martin for the fire on the grid at Silverstone when it was Peugeot's fault. They then improved until 2000 when they and Prost had THAT season.
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

Some excellent posts so far!!!

Yes the Peugeot in the 94 McLaren.... :oops: :roll: I suppose it could be argued it was their first F1 season, but then the engine was effectively a development of the engine used in the Le Mans Peugeots so should have been more reliable. It certainly always seemed to be lagging behind the opposition

The Alfa Romeo in the Osella is a definite candidate! Pretty sure they ran it from 86-88. Must have been very thirsty given it was a V8 turbo.....1500cc & 8 cylinders. TINY pistons i reckon! Was certainly a very poor engine. Im sure Alfa were actually meant to supply Ligier in 1987, but Rene Arnoux publicly slammed the engine pre-season :o , leading Alfa to walk out & leave the team high & dry. I think they missed the season opener in Rio & Ligier then had to rapidly shoe-horn a Megatron BMW into the back which appeared at Imola..

Has anyone got more info on the Porsche V12 fitted into the Footwork in 1991. This was a DEFINITE reject engine & MAJOR faux-pas from a company with the prestige of Porsche! :arrow:
User avatar
noisebox
Posts: 705
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 23:24
Location: Bury, UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by noisebox »

Has anyone got more info on the Porsche V12 fitted into the Footwork in 1991. This was a DEFINITE reject engine & MAJOR faux-pas from a company with the prestige of Porsche! :arrow:[/quote]
It was a development of the TAG V6 Prosche engine used by McLaren in the mid 80s. They took the turbo off and bolted two together to make a V12. It was massive - over 400lbs and over 100lbs heavier than the Ferrari V12 of that year. It was also very slow and unreliable. They ditched it mid season and ran Cosworth. The partnership with Porsche was dissolved late in the season and the engine was never seen again...
"will you stop him playing tennis then?", referring to Montoya's famous shoulder injury, to which Whitmarsh replied "well, it's very difficult to play tennis on a motorbike"
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

noisebox wrote:Has anyone got more info on the Porsche V12 fitted into the Footwork in 1991. This was a DEFINITE reject engine & MAJOR faux-pas from a company with the prestige of Porsche! :arrow:

It was a development of the TAG V6 Prosche engine used by McLaren in the mid 80s. They took the turbo off and bolted two together to make a V12. It was massive - over 400lbs and over 100lbs heavier than the Ferrari V12 of that year. It was also very slow and unreliable. They ditched it mid season and ran Cosworth. The partnership with Porsche was dissolved late in the season and the engine was never seen again...[/quote]

Thanks for the info!

I remember seeing Alboretos Footwork in the tunnel at Monaco that year, & it was incredibly slow compared to anything else :shock: Pity as poor old Alboreto was a pretty reasonable peddler (even then when his best days were behind him)

I remember also getting Stefan Johannssons autograph in the Silverstone paddock shortly after he failed to qualify the Cosworth powered car later that year. They had lots of transfer-box trouble in practice as it was only the 2nd meeting where they had used the Cosworth..
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

noisebox wrote:Has anyone got more info on the Porsche V12 fitted into the Footwork in 1991. This was a DEFINITE reject engine & MAJOR faux-pas from a company with the prestige of Porsche!


chrismc_DC2 wrote:It was a development of the TAG V6 Prosche engine used by McLaren in the mid 80s. They took the turbo off and bolted two together to make a V12. It was massive - over 400lbs and over 100lbs heavier than the Ferrari V12 of that year. It was also very slow and unreliable. They ditched it mid season and ran Cosworth. The partnership with Porsche was dissolved late in the season and the engine was never seen again...


Onyx was in negotations during 1989 to run the engine in 1991. Jean-Pierre Van Rossem made some idiotic comments, as he used to, and pissed off Porsche, who then signed up with Arrows/Footwork. Of course Van Rossem then sold the team to Peter Monteverdi, with the consequences that we're all aware of...
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

chrismc_DC2 wrote:Some excellent posts so far!!!

Yes the Peugeot in the 94 McLaren.... :oops: :roll: I suppose it could be argued it was their first F1 season, but then the engine was effectively a development of the engine used in the Le Mans Peugeots so should have been more reliable. It certainly always seemed to be lagging behind the opposition.


I could never quite understand how Peugeot got it so wrong. The basis of the engine was from the 905, so at the very least it should have been reliable, but it wasn't that reliable. They somehow managed to score 42 points and get 8 podiums, but it seemed that the engines were popping every weekend. They must have got their development incredibly wrong, because the engine was not that powerful and it became unreliable as well.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
chrismc_DC2
Posts: 21
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 00:10
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by chrismc_DC2 »

I reckon Peugeot were probably caught out with their inexperience as the original 905 engine was designed for anything up to 24hr endurance races. As such it would have been lower revving & less powerful to give it some longevity.

The development work to get it up to speed for F1 was obviously a bit more involved than they realised. Even when McLaren had offloaded them to Jordan in 95, i seem to remember the Jordans ran a 7 speed box, most likely to mask the shortcomings of the motor
User avatar
Paul Hayes
Posts: 1101
Joined: 17 Apr 2009, 19:54

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Paul Hayes »

Debaser wrote:Prost in 97 did really well...They should have won in Argentina, got 15 points after 6 races when Panis smashed up his legs. And even then Trulli led the Austrian GP as a rookie and would have been 2nd if he didn't break down.


All with Mugen-Honda engines, of course.
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

Paul Hayes wrote:
Debaser wrote:Prost in 97 did really well...They should have won in Argentina, got 15 points after 6 races when Panis smashed up his legs. And even then Trulli led the Austrian GP as a rookie and would have been 2nd if he didn't break down.


All with Mugen-Honda engines, of course.


Nicked from right under Minardi's nose in 1995.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
User avatar
Yannick
Posts: 1448
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 17:53

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Yannick »

Debaser wrote:What about the Porsche engine on the Footwork/Arrows in 1991 which was nearly 100kg overweight and was ditched by mid-season???


With RTL having taken over the German TV coverage in early 1991, and Bernd Schneider / Zakspeed having left the series one year earlier, the Porsche V12 was effectively the only German entrant in F1. And Michael Bartels wasn't there yet in the Lotus either. So the commentators of RTL rooted heavily for the Porsche powered Arrows cars, in a Lewisteria kind of style, which quickly made them the laughing stock of longtime F1 fans, because it clearly showed that they didn't have a clue what the sport was all about. The engine sunk quickly and enter Michael Bartels. The TV station tried again to play the patriotic card and failed yet again because Bartels never qualified. Luckily, I could switch over to Eurosport where John Watson was commentating in English, because the German commentary was just so lame. When Michael Schumacher entered F1 at the end of the year, their broadcasts became somewhat bearable because his performances were actually good enough that the RTL commentators rooting appeared somewhat justified. Still, it took RTL a few years to get some technical competence about the goings-on in F1 (mishaps like the famed Mirabeau corner of Monaco becoming "Tiptop corner", named after the nearby located Tiptop Bar, live on the broadcast), because when former driver Jochen Mass took over the commentator post, he quickly became known for staying silent for half a lap or even a full lap during the race, and by 1993, they backed him up with Heiko Wasser, who is the James Allen of German TV. Luckily, when Christian Danner replaced Mass, the live commentary became somewhat bearable with the regard to technical details, but Wasser still plays the patriotic card way too often, which appears as silly as on the first day when he's rooting for a certain Force 1ndia driver.
And Kai Ebel, the reporter in the pits could not shake off the impression that he misunderstood his job description "pits reporter" (dt. Boxenreporter) for "boxing reporter" (dt. Boxreporter), because Ebel used to work for RTL commenting the fights of Henry Maske before moving to the F1 pits. And of course, he, too, asks his interview partners questions in sort of a polarising manner like interviewing boxers. And it was only the interview training that the Schumacher brothers obviously underwent that made this style of interviews somewhat bearable, well, until everybody everybody began to talk publicocrap.
"I don't think we should be used to finance (the manufacturers') R&D because they will produce that engine anyway" said Monisha Kaltenborn.
"You will never see a Mercedes using a Ferrari engine or the other way round."
User avatar
Captain Hammer
Posts: 3459
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 11:10

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Captain Hammer »

Why has nobody metioned Williams' 2006-sped Cosworths?
noisebox wrote:Based on this years results, I'd say the Honda engine was a dud in 07 & 08...

Nope, the engine was the least of their worries. It might have been a little down on power, but it was bad aeroynamics that killed the last two RA-series race cars. You can believe the stories of a poorly-calibrted wind tunnel if you want, but the fact remains that lead designer Shuhei Nakamoto was a first-class moron with honours and compltely out of his depth in Formula One. Why do you think Honda took on Jorg Zander and Loic Bigois, the men who went on to develop the phenomenal Brawn BGP-001?
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by CarlosFerreira »

I suppose back then was probably easier to take an F1 engine and make it slow and reliable for 24-hours, than the other way around. They needed the power, but the engine was just not able to cope, overweight and all, and became the new tea-pot.

Well, if my teapot blew up like that on a regular basis, I'd be into Ice Tea by now.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
Nuppiz
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 5922
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 12:10
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Nuppiz »

The 2002 Mercedes engine had horrible reliability, especially on Räikkönen. But of course, it isn't even close to the ones mentioned here earlier in terms of rejectdom.
Eurosport broadcast for the 1990 Mexican GP prequalifying:
"The Life, it looked very lifeless yet again... in fact Bruno did one, slow lap"
Faustus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2073
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 20:23
Location: UK

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Faustus »

Nuppiz wrote:The 2002 Mercedes engine had horrible reliability, especially on Räikkönen. But of course, it isn't even close to the ones mentioned here earlier in terms of rejectdom.


Wasn't that when Mercedes/Ilmor had to stop using beryllium alloy in their engines? The cylinder liners were made out of it, if I remember correctly. When they had to stop using beryllium, the engine was absolutely nowhere and blew up on a regular basis. Took them ages to find a suitable replacement material.
Last edited by Faustus on 30 Apr 2009, 06:50, edited 1 time in total.
Following Formula 1 since 1984.
Avid collector of Formula 1 season guides and reviews.
Collector of reject merchandise and 1/43rd scale reject model cars.
User avatar
Enforcer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1498
Joined: 31 Mar 2009, 20:09
Location: Ireland

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Enforcer »

Nuppiz wrote:The 2002 Mercedes engine had horrible reliability, especially on Räikkönen. But of course, it isn't even close to the ones mentioned here earlier in terms of rejectdom.


The '96 Mercedes engine apparently wasn't brilliant either. Loads of mapping problems and power delivery that Hakkinen & Coulthard characterised with phrases like "all over the place", I have to go find whatever book or annual I read that.

There's also the Ford ED series from 95-98, it seems to have been the top engine Ford supplied in 1995, either because they were without a works team, or because it was their works engine, I don't know which. They were a "customer" engine subsequently, before there were Ztech engines all round for 1998. The 18 points Sauber somehow accumulated with it in 1995 is the best it ever did. By far.

I'd also like to nominate the Judd CV series purely because when Williams' engines were like this:

Honda (87) - Judd CV (88) - Renault (89)

The corresponding constructor's championship positions looked like this:

1st (87) - 7th (88) - 2nd (89)
RejectSteve
Posts: 891
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 22:32
Location: Aquashicola, Pennsylvania, USA
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by RejectSteve »

Enforcer wrote:
Nuppiz wrote:The 2002 Mercedes engine had horrible reliability, especially on Räikkönen. But of course, it isn't even close to the ones mentioned here earlier in terms of rejectdom.


The '96 Mercedes engine apparently wasn't brilliant either. Loads of mapping problems and power delivery that Hakkinen & Coulthard characterised with phrases like "all over the place", I have to go find whatever book or annual I read that.

There's also the Ford ED series from 95-98, it seems to have been the top engine Ford supplied in 1995, either because they were without a works team, or because it was their works engine, I don't know which. They were a "customer" engine subsequently, before there were Ztech engines all round for 1998. The 18 points Sauber somehow accumulated with it in 1995 is the best it ever did. By far.

Sauber had the factory Zetec-R engines in 1995, as did Benetton in 1994 and earlier. Wasn't the infamous 1997 Lola team powered by Zetecs as well?
Nissanymania! Friday has never been the same since.

The car in front is a Stefan.
User avatar
Nuppiz
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 5922
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 12:10
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Contact:

Re: Reject Engines...

Post by Nuppiz »

RejectSteve wrote:Sauber had the factory Zetec-R engines in 1995, as did Benetton in 1994 and earlier. Wasn't the infamous 1997 Lola team powered by Zetecs as well?

Yep, Lola had Zetec-R:s, right from 1995...
EDIT: As F1Rejects put it:
F1Rejects Lola Biography wrote:An engine deal to run Ford Zetec-R V8s was also put in place. Although this would be several years old, being the engines Sauber ran in 1995, at least it was a reliable enough unit.
Eurosport broadcast for the 1990 Mexican GP prequalifying:
"The Life, it looked very lifeless yet again... in fact Bruno did one, slow lap"
Post Reply