Your Favourite Reject RACE????

jonnyeol · Post by **jonnyeol** » 30 Mar 2009, 19:10

We've discussed cars and drivers, but their have been some remarkably insane F1 races in history, often not the responsibility of one driver or team. Here's some examples:

San Marino 1982 - Boycotted by all the FOCA teams and then Pironi and Villeneuve have their now notorious falling out over 'team orders' (much more accepted in the days when cars were less reliable). Also one ofther fact - it's the most recent race where none of the 3 drivers on the podium are still alive.

Dallas 1984 - One of the worst F1 tracks ever with decaying tarmac. Yet Rosberg somehow coaxed a turbo Williams to victory whilst all around him was chaos.

Australia 1991 - A total wash-out but somehow they got it together to put together 14 laps worth. And then the weather gets better just after they call the whole thing off!

Australia 1998 - One of the most depressing races I saw. The new rules failed to spark any more overtaking, the McLarens were dominant and by handing over the win, it looked like Mika Hakkinen would stroll to the title. Thankfully, Schumacher came along and made life difficult.

Canada 1998 - Most people think of Canada 1999, but this one does it for me. Wurz barrel-rolling at the first start, Trulli and Alesi going double-decker at the second, Schumacher carelessly taking out Fretzen, both the Arrows having stupid accidents, Villeneuve screwing up his only chance of victory that year by doing an insane move on Fisi after the safety car, followed by a classic bit of 1995-vintage Hill vs Schumacher where each blamed the other.

Belgium 1998 - Remember THAT startline shunt? Remember THAT Coulthard and Schumacher crash? And remember the Jordan 1-2, only for Ralf to get all sulky over team orders?

Austria 2002 - Barrichello gifts Schumacher the win on the line despite Schumi's dominance in the championship thus far. After this, I could never support a Ferrari again.

Brazil 2003 - Gripping stuff on a Gripless Circuit. Just about everyone went off at Turn 3, Barrichello broke down in sight of his first GP win, Fisichella won but didn't know for a couple of weeks, and Alonso couldn't even make the podium due to his late crash.

USA 2005 - I don't want to tell this story again.......too much was said about this one.

What other silly or bizarre races do you remember?

Bert · Post by **Bert** » 30 Mar 2009, 19:30

Valencia 2008? I haven't seen it completely, every time I start to watch it I fall asleep! But from what I heard it was not all that great.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 30 Mar 2009, 19:35

surely Canada last year (or was it the year before?) when the surface crumbled away at the hairpin has to get a mention. Shoddy repair work right up until the race start still didn't fix it and then there was cement dust all over the track! :roll:

good win for Kubica though, i'd like to see him win a few more races and its a shame we don't visit North America this year, but thats another story....

KSvt · Post by **KSvt** » 30 Mar 2009, 19:51

The '99 European Grand Prix: A reject classic. You know a race is a classic when you end up with two Stewarts and a Prost on the podium and a Minardi in the points, while the drivers in faster cars slithered off the road in the wet and Frentzen allegedly (don't know if this was ever confirmed) killed his own front-running car by hitting a switch that cut off the electrical system.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 30 Mar 2009, 20:02

Adelaide 1989 - Prost quitted after 1 lap, De Cesaris had two spins in consecutive laps at the same curve, Satoru Nakajima made the fastest lap, plenty of bizarre crashes like Senna hitting Brundle, Piquet hitting Ghinzani, etc

Ide · Post by **Ide** » 30 Mar 2009, 20:20

I'm with Bert on this one - Valencia '08 was definitely worthy of a reject race, it was just such a boring race. First time since 2004 Hungarian Grand Prix that I actually decided to turn over and watch something else! Definitely constitutes a reject. Not hoping for much more from this year's race, it's an uninspiring track in an uninspiring location.

jonnyeol · Post by **jonnyeol** » 30 Mar 2009, 21:55

Ah, yes, Valencia. Lucky I was in the pub at the time and had some company. I didn't cover 'boring' races that didn't have at least one notable occurence. In which case......a sub-category for the most boring race ever? I can only mention ones I sat through, but these could be:

Spain and France in 1995.....and most other years for that matter. Monaco and Germany that year had the sole attraction of 'guess who the next car to retire is'.
Britain in 1996 (one of the most hyped races EVER and hardly a pass of note)
Italy in 1997 (the Princess Diana Memorial Train?)
Australia 1998
Just about every race in the second half of the 2002 season (notably some UK papers gave a mere few column inches to F1 during this time rather than the usual page or two)
Almost every race in 2004 won by Schumacher (the only good races were the ones he screwed up in)
Belgium 2007 (a rare failure for Spa - only this and 2002 failed to produce any real drama since I started watching the sport)
Valencia 2008

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Mar 2009, 22:02

I'm holding out hope that the 2009 regulations will make Valencia a lot different this year. You kind of have to give it the benefit of the doubt given that it's virgin territory. And even if it's a boring rae, at least it's pretty to look at.

Anyway, my nomination is the 1999 Spanish Grand Prix, whih had only one recorded overtaking manoeuvre.

jonnyeol · Post by **jonnyeol** » 30 Mar 2009, 22:11

Captain Hammer wrote:I'm holding out hope that the 2009 regulations will make Valencia a lot different this year. You kind of have to give it the benefit of the doubt given that it's virgin territory. And even if it's a boring rae, at least it's pretty to look at.

Anyway, my nomination is the 1999 Spanish Grand Prix, whih had only one recorded overtaking manoeuvre.

I still have hopes that Valencia might give us a good race one day. It was just one of those days where everyone sorted themselves into 'order-of-speed' by the first corner. All we need is one safety-car worthy crash (like Piquet did in Singapore) and stuff might actually happen.

Ah, yes, Spain 1999. Villenevue got his BAR in Schumi's way which was too fast in a straight line to pass and only held him up for half the race before having his usual breakdown later. That was the only thing that happened.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Mar 2009, 22:37

The thing about Valencia is that it's not an actual street circuit. It's a permanent raceway built in and around a city. Its main problem is that some of the run-off areas stretch for several city blocks, and the streets are so wide that there's none of the claustrphobic appeal of Monaco.

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 30 Mar 2009, 23:37

Every single race at Hungaroring.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 31 Mar 2009, 00:29

Bort wrote:Every single race at Hungaroring.

There were actually some good races in the Hungarian GP in the late 80's and early 90's. In 1989, Nigel Mansell started in 12th place and steadily moved to 1st place, one of the finest drives by the Englishman. There were good races there also in 1986, 1990 and 1992.

There were great overtaking action those years, Piquet over Senna in 1986, Hakkinen over Brundle in 1992. Too bad it became an outdated race track.

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 31 Mar 2009, 00:48

rffp wrote:
Bort wrote:
There were great overtaking action those years, Piquet over Senna in 1986, Hakkinen over Brundle in 1992. Too bad it became an outdated race track.

About the only good thing about the track is it's dubious honor of being the debut track for HWNSNBMs first F1 adventure.
A "great" race at Hungaroring would only be an "okay" race on any other circuit.

(Then again, I think a race on the Nordschleife would be thrilling to watch nowadays, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.)

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 01:07

Bort wrote:Every single race at Hungaroring.

Funny you should say that, because while the track may be pretty bland, seven different drivers have won it in the past seven years: Kovalainen, Hamilton, Button, Raikkonen, Schumacher, Alonso and Barrichello. I don't think any other circuit on the calendar has that claim to fame.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 31 Mar 2009, 01:42

1984 Dallas was actually a very good race, despite the hilariously poor design of the track, which I think probably contributed to how good the race ended up being.

2005 USA... :lol:

1999 Spain was also pretty much a failure. One recorded passing maneuver? Disgraceful.

Revelo · Post by **Revelo** » 31 Mar 2009, 01:49

2005 in the USA goes without saying really

What about the two races at Las Vegas in 1981 and 82? I heard about the conditions the drivers had to endure and apparently was not popular with drivers and crowds.

Bort wrote:Every single race at Hungaroring.

Sorry but no, thats utter bull. What about in 86, 92 and 97? Classic races in my book.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 02:29

Revelo wrote:What about the two races at Las Vegas in 1981 and 82? I heard about the conditions the drivers had to endure and apparently was not popular with drivers and crowds.

Well, to start with, they were racing around the casino car park. It was a gimmick, something designed to rope in more gamblers and punters than actual fans. Formula One was well shot of Caesars' Palace when they left after 1982.

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 31 Mar 2009, 02:30

Revelo wrote:Sorry but no, thats utter bull. What about in 86, 92 and 97? Classic races in my book.

I am just trying to get the track dropped from the schedules now as it is hideously dull by todays track standards.
Bring back the A1 ring in its place, or San Marino.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 02:38

A1 won't happen any time soon: it's currently in no state to hold a race. As for Imola, there are far too many chicanes to make it worth having a race again, even if they are ironing out the one just before the Start/Finish Line.

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 31 Mar 2009, 02:48

Captain Hammer wrote:A1 won't happen any time soon: it's currently in no state to hold a race.

That's a real shame. Both the original and remade versions of that circuit had amazing character and always guaranteed a good race.

Captain Hammer wrote:As for Imola, there are far too many chicanes to make it worth having a race again, even if they are ironing out the one just before the Start/Finish Line.

With the start/finish line chicane gone, won't that just leave Tamburello and Variante Alte? Two chicanes isn't too bad.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 03:11

Bort wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:A1 won't happen any time soon: it's currently in no state to hold a race.

That's a real shame. Both the original and remade versions of that circuit had amazing character and always guaranteed a good race.

Red Bull purchased the facility after it ws dropped from the calendar and commissioned Hermann Tilke to re-design it. Tilke's proposal saw the cars double back before reaching the Remus Curve and coming back down the hill before turning right and going out to the original Osterreichring. They'd then follow the course of the original circuit until it re-joined the new one at Remus Curve by way of a two-hundred-and-seventy degree loop. They were also going to re-furbish Pit Lane and demolished it, but locals and green groups protested the project and won out, and it has remained in ruins ever since, completely unuseable for racing. It's a pretty sad end for such a legendary circuit, but Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz has said it will be re-built and used for DTM events by 2010. However, Formula One and MotoGP will not be appering at the circuit.

Bort wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:As for Imola, there are far too many chicanes to make it worth having a race again, even if they are ironing out the one just before the Start/Finish Line.

With the start/finish line chicane gone, won't that just leave Tamburello and Variante Alte? Two chicanes isn't too bad.

There's also Villeneuve, where Ratzenberger had his accident - it used to be a straight blast from the Start/Finish Line all the way up to Tosa - and Acque Minerale as well; again, it used to be a straight blast down from Piratella (thank God they didn't destory that corner) to Rivazza (that one either) and through to the Start/Finish Line again.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 31 Mar 2009, 08:43

Not a single one of Tilke's tracks are good in my opinion. But that's a matter of taste.

As for the reject race, considering that my history in F1 is quite short, I'd say 2005 USA. A good thing only for Monteiro and Karthikeyan to avoid being listed here... :lol:

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 09:24

Hell, I'll nominate any US Grand Prix since Long Beach: Caesars Palace was run in a car park; Detroit looks really finky and narrow; Dallas was a joke; Phoenix wasn't much better; and the infield at Indy was just really bland.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 31 Mar 2009, 11:10

What about Germany 94?

Hakkinen eliminating half the field, leaving us with a fairly processional race only livened up by Verstappen's pit stop fire (livened up especially for him I imagine...) and a pretty hilarious selection of points finishers with Bernard on the podium and Olivier Beretta so nearly getting a point.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 31 Mar 2009, 11:28

A reject race could be a boring race. There have been many. It could also be a race where a driver or team qualifying for the website have done something outstanding. I choose to go for the latter, and say my most recent favourite reject race is Nürburgring 2007 where Markus Winkelhock led the field in the Spyker in his only F1 start. That was fun! That was exciting!

I agree though, that the Valenica America's Cup Marina track deserves a special mention as one of the most boring tracks F1 has ever introduced. Usually always keen on new tracks, I saw it for the first time in qualifying. But it proved to be so boring that I agreed to drive my mother to the supermarket instead of watching it until the end. To my surprise, we met my uncle there, the other big F1 fan in the family, who also saw no reason to watch this because it was boring. I tried watching the race on Sunday, but when I almost went asleep, I decided to do something else and come back for the race review. The F1 Reject New Track this is for sure. I remember reading that people from the F1 scene complained that the track had the flair of a building site. Please quickly move the race to Circuito Ricardo Tormo instead.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 11:40

I don't think a move to Ricardo Tomo is likely to happen any time soon.

Anyway, I give Valencia the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes you just have a bad race, and given the reactions to it last year, changes may well be made in time for this year's event. Plus, the 2009 regulations could well liven up a race held at Barcelona, so hope isn't lost yet.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 31 Mar 2009, 15:52

I'd also have to agree about the Hungaroring - there have been plenty of excellent races there, 97 sticks out for me, mainly because as a young lad i was a rather big fan of Damon Hill, and so for the same reason Spa 98 is a good one

but back to the topic I think overall USA '05 must be the worst race - just the grid line up looked ridiculous and the race was just as bad! Its criminal that karthikeyan isn't on the website, and i suppose the same could be said for Montiero...

probably the day Bernie would choose to forget the most! :lol:

Ide · Post by **Ide** » 31 Mar 2009, 15:58

Nuppiz wrote:Not a single one of Tilke's tracks are good in my opinion. But that's a matter of taste.

Almost agree with that one - although I don't think Istanbul is too bad!
Then again, the planned French GP track for 2010/2011 (whenever) isn't a Tilke-designed track - and that's just a boring rehash of Magny-Cours by the look of it. Back to Paul Ricard I say!

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 31 Mar 2009, 22:18

Ide wrote:Back to Paul Ricard I say!

I think my favourite French race track of all time would have to be Rouen-Les-Essarts, closely followed by Dijon.

Sadly I don't think I will ever see an F1 race back at either of these venues.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 31 Mar 2009, 22:20

Ide wrote:
Nuppiz wrote:Not a single one of Tilke's tracks are good in my opinion. But that's a matter of taste.

Almost agree with that one - although I don't think Istanbul is too bad!

I'll agree on that, Istanbul Park is pretty good except for the dogs running around on circuit!

I don't want to blur the line between what a reject race and a reject circuit is, so for my "favourite?!?" reject race was the 2008 European GP at Valencia. That is my favourite because I was lucky enough to not fall asleep during it, though that was helped by Red Bull.

Ide · Post by **Ide** » 31 Mar 2009, 22:26

Bort wrote:
Ide wrote:Back to Paul Ricard I say!

I think my favourite French race track of all time would have to be Rouen-Les-Essarts, closely followed by Dijon.

Sadly I don't think I will ever see an F1 race back at either of these venues.

I think that Rouen, Dijon and Clermont-Ferrand were much better tracks than Paul Ricard - but Ricard still has the facilities and still produced interesting races, that's why I mentioned it. There were better tracks of course...
There is still a circuit in Clermont-Ferrand, quite an interesting track with a lot of elevation change but is too narrow really, and I think plans to develop the Dijon circuit went out the window. Rouen seems to ignore the fact that they used to hold a Grand Prix there, I've been to the site and they seem to have tried to erase all the history completely.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Mar 2009, 22:37

They'll never go back to Paul Ricard. While it does have the ability to produce a wet race even on the driest of days, the circuit has been given a permantent "1T" status by the FIA, which means it will only ever be used as a testing cricuit for Formula One; it's ineligible to hold races.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 31 Mar 2009, 23:16

Captain Hammer wrote:They'll never go back to Paul Ricard. While it does have the ability to produce a wet race even on the driest of days, the circuit has been given a permantent "1T" status by the FIA, which means it will only ever be used as a testing cricuit for Formula One; it's ineligible to hold races.

It held an FIA GT race shortly after it became the HTTT. I don't think they even have grandstands or viewing areas any longer. Its really a shame, but even if it could hold a race, it would just be that horrid VIP-GP that Bernie was throwing around a few years ago. Having a proper circuit that doesn't hold races is about as useful as Tarso Marques driving like a rockape.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 01 Apr 2009, 15:26

VALENCIA 2008............... :mrgreen:

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 01 Apr 2009, 17:00

Ide wrote:
Bort wrote:
Ide wrote:Back to Paul Ricard I say!

I think my favourite French race track of all time would have to be Rouen-Les-Essarts, closely followed by Dijon.

Sadly I don't think I will ever see an F1 race back at either of these venues.

I think that Rouen, Dijon and Clermont-Ferrand were much better tracks than Paul Ricard - but Ricard still has the facilities and still produced interesting races, that's why I mentioned it. There were better tracks of course...
There is still a circuit in Clermont-Ferrand, quite an interesting track with a lot of elevation change but is too narrow really, and I think plans to develop the Dijon circuit went out the window. Rouen seems to ignore the fact that they used to hold a Grand Prix there, I've been to the site and they seem to have tried to erase all the history completely.

Dijon's too short and too narrow isn't it? Then I suppose people said the same about Donnington, be interesting to see if it gets back.

Least favourite race was USA '05. Totally stupid. Although I don't blame Ferrari for the shambles, I think they were within their right to not agree that the track be changed for the benefit of other teams and to save Michelin some embarrasement.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 01 Apr 2009, 17:06

I'm amazed no one's nominated Phoenix 1991 yet. Any race where an ostrich race gets a bigger attendance than a grand prix takes my vote for favourite reject race.

Life w12 · Post by **Life w12** » 01 Apr 2009, 17:56

Debaser wrote:I'm amazed no one's nominated Phoenix 1991 yet. Any race where an ostrich race gets a bigger attendance than a grand prix takes my vote for favourite reject race.

Or how about Phoenix 89, The race was held in June, which is one of the hottest months of the year (Phoenix is in a desert too) Only 6 cars finished in the grueling 2 hour fight for survival and Rial finished 4th!

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 02 Apr 2009, 06:48

I wonder if Monaco 1982 deserves to get a mention. It was the race that nobody wanted to win...

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 09 Apr 2009, 21:55

My favourite, which I actually attended, was the 1978 BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone. This was a non-championship race, in long lost pre-Bernie days. My hazy memories are of standing in the rain at Becketts, watching everyone spin off on the first lap and then going home after about half an hour. The results are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_BRDC_ ... nal_Trophy .

The weather was atrocious. I recall that Lauda and Arnoux sank into the Becketts mud on the warm up lap, and most of the rest of the field joined them after lap 1. About six cars remained on the track for the remaining race, but it was wet cold and miserable so most of the crowd, including me, went home.

The five finishers are in retrospect interesting. Keke Rosberg's first victory, in only his second F1 appearance. Followed by Emerson in the Fittipaldi, a classic reject team. Twp privateer McClarens, and finally Rupert Keegan in the Durex sponsored Surtees. ( A subject of many schoolboy 'puncture' jokes at the time. )

I was also at San Marino in 1982, which I remember as being a fairly entertaining race despite the lack of any FOCA cars. This may have been because of the pint mugs of red wine that one could buy at Imola in those days. The evening after the race we attended a dinner at which the Ferrari drivers were meant to guest of honour. But of course they had had such a row after the race, that they never appeared. And of course it was Gilles' last race.

Most tedious F1 race I went to was the 2004 Hungarian. No overtaking, Schumi won predictably.

And off topic, the worst race I ever went to was the Champ Car outing at Rockingham. Absolutely no on track overtaking, and completely incomprehensible. Like watching traffic on the M25.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 09 Apr 2009, 22:12

I found it!!!!! Last race on this video http://www.f1tube.net/video/F1-internat ... hy-Silvers