Honorary rejects

[Bleu]

Talking about which drivers belong here. I mean, they performed enough well to escape reject status, but still deserve mention here. Driving reject team, otherwise failing expectations or so. I put all those in "You lucky bastard" in.

I think these qualify:
Johnny Dumfries
Christian Danner
Nicola Larini
Aguri Suzuki
Roberto Moreno
Michael Andretti
Giancarlo Fisichella
Ralf Schumacher
Takuma Sato
Nelson Piquet jr

[midgrid]

Giancarlo Fisichella
Ralf Schumacher

Both of these guys have won GPs on merit!

[DonTirri]

well I got one name right here:

Narain Karthikeyan.

Bloody US05, allowed both Tiago and Narain to become Lucky Bastards

[Irisado]

Here is my take on your list of candidates.

Johnny Dumfries

I don't think Dumfries is deserving of becoming an honorary reject. True, he couldn't match Senna, but which other rookie could have? It's not as if he was crusing around at the back either, he was mixing it with the midfield runners, so I don't feel he falls into this category.

Christian Danner

A much more likely candidate can be found in Danner in my view. He was outperformed by Ghinzani at Osella, Boutsen at Arrows, and Brundle at Zakspeed. Yes, he held the upper hand against his team mates at Rial, but when you consider he was up against Volker Wiedler for much of the season, that's not really saying very much. His fourth place in Detroit was pretty lucky, especially when you consider how often the Rial failed to qualify, and that there were teams, which, in my view, were far more deserving of points.

Nicola Larini

I don't agree. His performances in the 1989 Osella were excellent, and every other team he drove for gave him utterly lousy equipment, except for Ferrari in 1994, so scoring his best result on the day of Senna's death was just about as unlucky as you can be. He deserves not to be an honorary reject in my view.

Aguri Suzuki

Based on his performances for Footwork and Ligier towards the end of his career, I would have to agree, but he had some solid drives for Larrousse (Lola) in 1990 and 1991, so on that basis, I would say that he deserves not to be a reject.

Roberto Moreno

In many ways, he's lucky not to be a reject, but he did score more points with Benetton in 1991 to follow up that second place finish at the Japanese Grand Prix in 1990, so, on balance, I feel he deserves not be an honorary reject, especially when you consider that he drove for some of the worst teams ever to grace the F1 paddock (e.g. Coloni, EuroBrun, Andrea Moda).

Michael Andretti

In view of the equipment he had at his disposal, and the number of accidents and collisions he had, I would say that Andretti is a pretty solid candidate for this award.

Giancarlo Fisichella

He is inconsistent, but he has won races, and generally been towards the front of grid when his car has been good enough, so I don't agree with you here.

Ralf Schumacher

I'm certainly no fan, but he did enough in 1999 with the indifferent Williams FW21 to avoid this award in my view, let alone before you factor in his race wins.

Takuma Sato

After all his heroics with the Super Aguri. I think not .

[quote]Nelson Piquet jr[quote]
We don't know yet, but it doesn't look too promising for him so far.

[Nuppiz]

well I got one name right here:

Narain Karthikeyan.

Bloody US05, allowed both Tiago and Narain to become Lucky Bastards

And Christijan Albers!

[Valrys]

well I got one name right here:

Narain Karthikeyan.

Bloody US05, allowed both Tiago and Narain to become Lucky Bastards

And Christijan Albers!

Luckily, Albers doesn't escape - he doesn't have any other top 6 finishes to back up the 5th in the US, so he still meets reject criteria - deservedly in my opinion

[thehemogoblin]

well I got one name right here:

Narain Karthikeyan.

Bloody US05, allowed both Tiago and Narain to become Lucky Bastards

And Christijan Albers!

Nope. Albers never got another top-six finish.

He never unrejectified himself.

[CarlosFerreira]

Tiago Monteiro. Much as I admire him, he only raced rubbish, so escaping rejectdom was a fluke. I am pretty sure Michelin is in his Christmas Card List.

[rffp]

Roberto Moreno and Nicola Larini were not bad drivers, but they drove for so many crappy teams that they deserve a mention for that.

In the 1989 Canada GP, Larini was flying with Osella in the rain, running 3rd when his Osella did the expected and broke down. That and his qualifying performance that year showed that he deserved better luck. In 1990, he was stuck with horribly slow Ligier and still managed to finish twice in 7th which were extremely important for that team, since these results were the ones that kept "Les Bleus" out of pre-qualifying hell in 1991.

Poor Roberto Moreno! He behaved like one of those flying ants that are drawn to the light, instead he was drawn to absolute dreadful teams. He did the impossible with horrible machinery like the 4-year old "tortoise" used by AGS in 1987, the silver-taped Eurobrun and the legendary Andrea Moda. And of course, the yellow-yolk horible livery cars by Forti and Coloni. Moreno was unique, since few drivers had such a long career around minnows and built a reputation for actually being a talented driver. Unfortunately, when he had a chance, he basically blew it. We won't see any driver in the future like Moreno, even because such teams do not exist anymore in F-1. Sad (twice)!

One guy that deserved the honorary reject status is definitely Emanuele Pirro, outpaced by Nannini in the Benetton and by Lehto in Scuderia Italia.

P.S. Christian Danner was 4th in Phoenix not Detroit.

[Nuppiz]

well I got one name right here:

Narain Karthikeyan.

Bloody US05, allowed both Tiago and Narain to become Lucky Bastards

And Christijan Albers!

Nope. Albers never got another top-six finish.

He never unrejectified himself.

What I mean here is that he got three points. But then again, it's all about top-6 finishes, not points!

[Irisado]

In the 1989 Canada GP, Larini was flying with Osella in the rain, running 3rd when his Osella did the expected and broke down.

Agreed, it was water in the electrics that stopped him. Anything that could go wrong usually did as far an Osella was concerned.

He also performed very well at San Marino Grand Prix, but the rear wheel bearing failed and spun him into the wall six laps from the the end of the race.

P.S. Christian Danner was 4th in Phoenix not Detroit.

True, I get those US circuits mixed up, as they all looked rather similar . Thanks for correcting me.

[Faustus]

Roberto Moreno and Nicola Larini were not bad drivers, but they drove for so many crappy teams that they deserve a mention for that.

In the 1989 Canada GP, Larini was flying with Osella in the rain, running 3rd when his Osella did the expected and broke down. That and his qualifying performance that year showed that he deserved better luck. In 1990, he was stuck with horribly slow Ligier and still managed to finish twice in 7th which were extremely important for that team, since these results were the ones that kept "Les Bleus" out of pre-qualifying hell in 1991.

In 1989, when Gerhard Berger had his accident at Imola, Ferrari tested Nicola Larini with a view to him taking over the drive until Berger recovered from his burns. As it turns out, Berger actually missed one race, but they didn't replace him. Can't remember why. If I remember correctly, he tested the F1-89 at Fiorano or Mugello and did quite well. On the back of that and some good performances for Osella and Ligier, he became test driver for Ferrari in 1992.

Hell of a race, Canada 1989. Intermittent rain, if I remember correctly, with a lot to remember: Stefan Johansson's incident with the air line in the pits, both Scuderia Italia Dallaras in the points, fastest lap by Jonathan Palmer in the Tyrrell, Moreno qualified the Coloni C3 and of course, Larini running 3rd for a while. Oh yeah, and it was Renault's first win with the V10.

[Faustus]

Poor Roberto Moreno! He behaved like one of those flying ants that are drawn to the light, instead he was drawn to absolute dreadful teams. He did the impossible with horrible machinery like the 4-year old "tortoise" used by AGS in 1987, the silver-taped Eurobrun and the legendary Andrea Moda. And of course, the yellow-yolk horible livery cars by Forti and Coloni. Moreno was unique, since few drivers had such a long career around minnows and built a reputation for actually being a talented driver. Unfortunately, when he had a chance, he basically blew it. We won't see any driver in the future like Moreno, even because such teams do not exist anymore in F-1. Sad (twice)!

Great driver, supremely talented and a nice guy! Test driver for Lotus and Ferrari (picked by Colin and Enzo, respectively, not many people can lay claim to that!), won the Intercontinental F3000 championship on a shoe-string and was finally able to show what he was worth at Benetton in 1990, where he promptly finished 2nd. Plus, he was the perfect size for a racing driver!
I don't think there are many drivers who could have dragged the Coloni C3 onto the grid in 1989 or the Andrea Moda in 1992 like he did. Oh and the EuroBrun running at the front in first free practice at Phoenix in 1990!

[DonTirri]

Honorary Reject?

Minardi.

Yes, they are far above the reject-status limit, but in my opinion they embody the spirit of rejectdom.
No other team has been unsuccesfull as long as they have.

from 1985 to 2005 they spent majority of their time on the back or midgrid, never really succeeding. So in my opinion they are worthy of a honorary Rejectdom.

[Irisado]

I think we are meant to be focusing on drivers here, but in any case Minardi are far too good to be awarded that status in my view .

According to an Autosport supplment from a few years ago, Minardi were made to look as good as Ferrari in the Schumacher era by some of the other teams that are regularly discussed as being rejects, so I really don't think they can be considered in this way.

[rffp]

Since Minardi can't be a honorary reject, at least ATS should!

[Irisado]

Since Minardi can't be a honorary reject, at least ATS should!

ATS as in Gunther Schmid's team from the late 70s early 80s or the Italian outfit which broke away from Ferrari in the 1960s?

I assume you mean the former, in which case, I would say that your case is reasonable on the grounds that Schmid was rather, how shall I put it, a volatile chracter, and the performance of his team suffered badly as a result of this, but his Rial outfit was much worse in terms of performance overall in my view, so I would say that to hit the same team owner with 'rejectdom' twice is possibly a bit harsh .

That said, managing to get Winklehock disqualified for being underweight at the 1982 San Marino Grand Prix when half the field didn't turn up, and scoring points was very likely (Jarier was fourth for Osella, and Salazar was fifth in the sister ATS after all) was rather careless, so you could argue ATS deserve honorary reject status for that blunder alone.

[rffp]

ATS as in Gunther Schmid's team from the late 70s early 80s or the Italian outfit which broke away from Ferrari in the 1960s?

The German team ran by Schmidt.

Rial was quite promising in 1988, they made some good races and looked like possible strong midfield runners, but of course in 1989 they completely lost it! Bad drivers, bad chassis, bad engine, bad technical staff, bad team owner!

I remember ATS being occasionally fast in 1983, when I started watching F-1, but despite using a powerful BMW turbo engine, the car was as unreliable as one could be. Manfred Winklehock would push hard, but both of them were no-hopers.

A detail that is often overlooked is that ATS was the team that gave Gerhard Berger his first drive. He almost lost control of the car in the start, probably wasn't used to the turbo engine yet, and in the Italian GP he finished 6th, but scored no point.

[crazydude1992]

Pedro Diniz maybe, he didnt do too bad, but he stayed cause of his money.

[Faustus]

Pedro Diniz maybe, he didnt do too bad, but he stayed cause of his money.

Underrated driver. At one point, in the mid-to-late nineties, Pedro Diniz was the driver that every team boss wanted. Not only did he have bags of money, but he was also a good driver and a good tester. He certainl didn't embarass himself alongside Panis at Ligier in 1996 (apart from the win in Monaco) and Hill at Arrows in 1997. He scored as many points as Mika Salo at Arrows in 1998 and outscored Jean Alesi at Sauber in 1999.

[rffp]

Underrated driver.

I care to disagree. He had an obscure F-3 career, always driving for the best teams (West Surrey in UK and Fittipaldi in Sudam) but never showed talent. Compared to other pay-drivers, he was great, but for instance Panis kicked his butt at Ligier. He wasn't overhyped as other Brazilian failures, so nobody expected anything from him and by scoring his occasional points he was able to escape rejectdom and actually make people believe he had talent. Sometimes, I think he was best known for the pretty ladies he dated.

[Faustus]

Underrated driver.

I care to disagree. He had an obscure F-3 career, always driving for the best teams (West Surrey in UK and Fittipaldi in Sudam) but never showed talent. Compared to other pay-drivers, he was great, but for instance Panis kicked his butt at Ligier. He wasn't overhyped as other Brazilian failures, so nobody expected anything from him and by scoring his occasional points he was able to escape rejectdom and actually make people believe he had talent. Sometimes, I think he was best known for the pretty ladies he dated.

I double-disagree you!
He was a decent but not outstanding driver in F3 (West Surrey Racing) and F3000 (Forti), I agree. It is unlikely that he would made it to F1 on talent alone, but then again there aren't many who have. Remember, Michael Schumacher was a pay-driver at Jordan, for example. But I digress.
He was highly regarded at Arrows and that's straight from his race engineer. He improved drastically from his days at Forti and ended up quite a good driver. His feedback was very good and he was very accomodating of the team's requirements. If the team was going to test, he would immediately volunteer for it (unlike whingeing Damon Hill) and work through anything he was given. Really, he was a good driver that happened (fortunately) to have loads of money.

Flavio tried to pinch him for Benetton in 1998.

[rffp]

He was a decent but not outstanding driver in F3 (West Surrey Racing) and F3000 (Forti)...

Compared to his teammate Rubens, his results were below par.

Flavio tried to pinch him for Benetton in 1998.

That would be a nice pair for Benetton: Wurz and Diniz, highlighting the downfall of the multi-coloured team.

I agree that hard-working drivers are better than those whose attitude amount to nothing in the team. Diniz struck me as a no-nonsense driver that always pushing hard to his limits, but he was limited. I couldn't imagine him raising winner trophies race after race. I believe that if he got into a good car, he would naturally score more points, but he would never be a contender, he simply didn't have it. It was quite a shame that he wound up at the right side of the Atlantic ocean while Helio Castro Neves and Gil de Ferran wound up at the wrong side. My opinion, anyway! Others may differ, of course!

[Irisado]

Pedro Diniz was a good enough driver not to be classed as a reject in my view.

He compared well to all his team mates in F1, but his main problem was consistency, since there were always some races in each season where he was miles off the pace (e.g. Hungary 1997, where he was fighting with the Minardis and Tyrrells while Hill was leading the race). He did drive some very good races too though, and I think he deserved all the points he scored, so I wouldn't say he comes anywhere near close to honorary reject status.

[Pedro_Diniz]

Pedro Diniz was a good enough driver not to be classed as a reject in my view.

He compared well to all his team mates in F1, but his main problem was consistency, since there were always some races in each season where he was miles off the pace (e.g. Hungary 1997, where he was fighting with the Minardis and Tyrrells while Hill was leading the race). He did drive some very good races too though, and I think he deserved all the points he scored, so I wouldn't say he comes anywhere near close to honorary reject status.

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