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Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 09:54
by mario
Prodrive have announced that they will not be applying for the vacant slot in 2011 - according to David Richards, Prodrive are more interested in re-entering the World Rally Championship with an unspecified contender. Having witnessed the struggles of the new teams in F1, Richards has decided that the challenge of setting up a new team from scratch, given the current situation, would simply be too much for Prodrive.
David Richards wrote:"Taking on the challenge of starting a brand new Formula 1 team, finding the necessary funding and developing the car from scratch is a massive undertaking and not to be under estimated.
As expected, we've witnessed the financial and technical challenges that the new teams have faced this year in just getting to the grid, let alone being competitive and whilst I have enormous admiration for their efforts I don't believe this is an appropriate strategy for Prodrive or Aston Martin to adopt."
[I note the comment about Aston Martin there - perhaps the rumours of an Aston Martin F1 team weren't so wide of the mark then?]
Although Richards has not ruled out a future entry into F1, he will only do so if he believes that the team would be competitive and profitable - neither of which would be the case as things stand.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82877Although a bit disappointing, it is asking quite a bit to be able to enter the sport and instantly be competitive - the only way that could realistically happen would be for customer cars (and we know that Richards is a supporter of customer cars), or a massive change in the regulations to heavily restrict resources to put all of the teams on the same financial level.
I can't see the former being allowed as long as the midfield teams (and especially Williams) are so against it (and they are right to fear what would happen if the big teams could sell their cars to new teams). As for the latter, the fact that the teams have agreed to reduce their resources will make it easier for new teams to compete on a more level playing field, but money will still be a major stumbling block for a new team for several years to come.
So, that is one potential entrant already out of the running - who is now left?
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 11:44
by Jordan
I'm disappointed but not surprised as well. While i'd love to see prodrive in F1, he's right, they've got a lot on their plate. Also, from their current activities, i'd guess they're not interested in putting forth a mid-field team and working their way up.
I am, however, exited to see what they do for WRC next season, as when I think of Prodrive, that's where my mind goes immediately.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 14:02
by Phoenix
I'm not surprised. Apart from the evident costs, seeing a team with the cachet of Prodrive struggling at the end of the grid would be a shame for fans and galling for the team itself. Which brings up an idea I have-FIA should help new entrants with subventions so they could be closer to the established teams.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 15:08
by AndreaModa
Phoenix wrote:I'm not surprised. Apart from the evident costs, seeing a team with the cachet of Prodrive struggling at the end of the grid would be a shame for fans and galling for the team itself. Which brings up an idea I have-FIA should help new entrants with subventions so they could be closer to the established teams.
I think Bernie and FOM already are with the new teams this year, it was one of the agreements put in place to attract new teams in the first place.
As for Prodrive, it's a shame, but understandable if they're about to throw their weight behind WRC once more, and if we're quite honest, when comparing the two championships, WRC is in dire need of new investment and new teams, the annual Citroen-Ford battle which mostly turns into a Seb Loeb exhibition show is getting quite tiresome now. F1 has a 24 car grid, and whatever happens will have 26 next year. Maybe after the changes in 2013 we might see Richards interested once more, especially seeing as the new technical regs likely to be introduced will level the playing field quite a bit.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 15:47
by CarlosFerreira
Well, that's it: F1 is a closed club for now. The way, I am sad to report, is out - expect mergers or outright shut downs. Unless manifacturers come back - here's hoping they will - we probably won't see new entrants.
Interesting the bit about it being the midfielders - especially Williams - fighting against costumer cars. Makes sense, they'd be the team with the most to lose. The fact is, with Force India more or less closely connected to McLaren, Toro Rosso a part of Red Bull (I know...), the pack is tightening back there.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 15:49
by mario
AndreaModa wrote:Phoenix wrote:I'm not surprised. Apart from the evident costs, seeing a team with the cachet of Prodrive struggling at the end of the grid would be a shame for fans and galling for the team itself. Which brings up an idea I have-FIA should help new entrants with subventions so they could be closer to the established teams.
I think Bernie and FOM already are with the new teams this year, it was one of the agreements put in place to attract new teams in the first place.
As for Prodrive, it's a shame, but understandable if they're about to throw their weight behind WRC once more, and if we're quite honest, when comparing the two championships, WRC is in dire need of new investment and new teams, the annual Citroen-Ford battle which mostly turns into a Seb Loeb exhibition show is getting quite tiresome now. F1 has a 24 car grid, and whatever happens will have 26 next year. Maybe after the changes in 2013 we might see Richards interested once more, especially seeing as the new technical regs likely to be introduced will level the playing field quite a bit.
I agree that the WRC is in a dire situation at the moment, with the Citroen lock out at the moment (they seem to have a big advantage over Ford at the moment). Moreover, in the WRC, at the moment the teams are quite openly manipulating the finishing order to benefit their top drivers - take the Jordanian Rally, where Citroen deliberately got Ogier penalised so he would start ahead of Loeb the following day, and clear the road for Loeb. It's got to the point where the stewards are taking a much stricter line with the teams, with the threat of handing out penalties to the teams if they do it again.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82881 However, it is unclear whether they will take action on drivers deliberately slowing down at the end of the day to avoid having to start early on for the following stages.
Hopefully, though, since the regulations are changing and we're effectively getting the S2000 cars in rallying now, we should have quite a few more new teams coming into the WRC - at the very least, it can't get worse. That said, Prodrive are rumoured to be linked to an attempt to revive the "Mini" brand within the WRC - it's not the car I would have picked, but evidently they think that they can have a good go at it.
As for F1, it is true that FOM is helping out the new teams - they have received some of their revenue from FOM up front, and are receiving subsidised travel and equipment transportation. However, there has been no help from the other teams at the moment, it seems. It is interesting, given that FOTA had discussed the idea of technical partnerships with the new teams in the style of Mclaren and Force India's partnership, which is a genuine two way research deal (although that seemed to disappear after the whole "Formula Elaborate Bluff" kerfuffle).
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 17:06
by CarlosFerreira
And Lola's credit card doesn't allow for
adventures either.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 17:18
by Cynon
Does the reasoning given by Lola and Prodrive not completely vindicate USF1's departure from F1?
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 15 Apr 2010, 23:48
by Captain Hammer
I've never quite understood why so many people think Prodrive is the Holy Grail for Formula 1.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 00:36
by Klon
Captain Hammer wrote:I've never quite understood why so many people think Prodrive is the Holy Grail for Formula 1.
Welcome to the club. I mean, they had failed in 2008. Why do people think they'd actually get more done than USF1?
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 00:42
by thehemogoblin
Klon wrote:Captain Hammer wrote:I've never quite understood why so many people think Prodrive is the Holy Grail for Formula 1.
Welcome to the club. I mean, they had failed in 2008. Why do people think they'd actually get more done than USF1?
Because Dave Richards at least knows how to get sponsors and run a team.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 00:46
by Captain Hammer
thehemogoblin wrote:Because Dave Richards at least knows how to get sponsors and run a team.
Yes, because banking your team's entire future in the sport on a set of controversail regulations without having a back-up plan in case things go badly is an effective way of running a team. Richards claimed he had a sponsor lined up for Prodrive, someone who "had never been involved in Formula 1 before" and was set to annouce them at the 2007 British Grand Prix, but they were never revealed.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 00:55
by CasinoSquare
Captain Hammer wrote:thehemogoblin wrote:Because Dave Richards at least knows how to get sponsors and run a team.
Yes, because banking your team's entire future in the sport on a set of controversail regulations without having a back-up plan in case things go badly is an effective way of running a team. Richards claimed he had a sponsor lined up for Prodrive, someone who "had never been involved in Formula 1 before" and was set to annouce them at the 2007 British Grand Prix, but they were never revealed.
+1 about time the 'groupthink' around them/him is questioned.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 03:04
by thehemogoblin
Captain Hammer wrote:thehemogoblin wrote:Because Dave Richards at least knows how to get sponsors and run a team.
Yes, because banking your team's entire future in the sport on a set of controversail regulations without having a back-up plan in case things go badly is an effective way of running a team. Richards claimed he had a sponsor lined up for Prodrive, someone who "had never been involved in Formula 1 before" and was set to annouce them at the 2007 British Grand Prix, but they were never revealed.
I'm not a Prodrive apologist. That's only compared to USF1.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 09:10
by mario
Captain Hammer wrote:I've never quite understood why so many people think Prodrive is the Holy Grail for Formula 1.
I guess that part of the reason stems from Prodrive's co-operation with the BAR team in 2003 and 2004; the fact that the team was very competitive in 2004 proved to be a strong contrast against the weaker performance of the team from 2005 onwards, after Honda bought a controlling share and ended the Prodrive contract at the end of 2004.
Although it was only for a few brief years, there are going to be those who associate Prodrive with high performance in F1 as a result; coupled with the success that Prodrive have had in other areas, like rallying (where they are set to return) and now in the Le Mans series with the Lola-Aston Martin LMP1 (which is probably the fastest petrol powered LMP1 - although the sheer volume of money that Audi and Peugeot throw at their Le Mans programs (more then the rest of the LMP1 field
combined) means that they can't compete with the diesels - it's a similar problem to F1, where the budget is king), people seem to automatically assume that a Prodrive entry would be competitive, whatever discipline it enters into.
And before anyone accuses me of it, I'm not trying to act as a cheerleader for Prodrive - I'm mainly worried that we won't have
any new teams at this rate.
On another note, it is a shame that Lola have also ruled themselves out, but I suppose that if the money is simply not there, then there is no point in trying to push ahead with an F1 program. That said, at least they are signalling that they are interested in taking on outside work for F1 teams, so they haven't cut themselves off from the sport altogether.
Nevertheless, it is a little worrying that the interest those two showed last year has melted away (and the reason Lola gives for not being able to compete - the time constrains - seems odd, given that the Lotus entry has managed to get a car ready for this season in half the time.)
So, who has put in a credible application for the 2011 F1 season?
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 22:37
by Captain Hammer
mario wrote:So, who has put in a credible application for the 2011 F1 season?
Epsilon Euskadi and Durango are the only ones we know of for certain. I wasn't expecting a hell of a lot of interest, given the way the new teams are all off the pace and the lack of a budget cap. However, I suspect there may be one or two teams who are doing as Manor Grand Prix did and keeping quiet until after the new entry is announced. Prodrive, Lola and USF1 were all very confident of being accepted to the grid. One of them got an entry but never made it, while two of them were passed over entirely.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 23:32
by AndreaModa
Captain Hammer wrote:mario wrote:So, who has put in a credible application for the 2011 F1 season?
Epsilon Euskadi and Durango are the only ones we know of for certain. I wasn't expecting a hell of a lot of interest, given the way the new teams are all off the pace and the lack of a budget cap. However, I suspect there may be one or two teams who are doing as Manor Grand Prix did and keeping quiet until after the new entry is announced. Prodrive, Lola and USF1 were all very confident of being accepted to the grid. One of them got an entry but never made it, while two of them were passed over entirely.
That's a good shout, there were a lot of entries last year that got very little publicity at all, and yet one of them (Manor) got a slot so it isn't all doom and gloom, at least until the list is released!
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 16 Apr 2010, 23:45
by Nessafox
Lola makes the cars for aston martin/prodrive in le mans, they could join forces again..., in my opinion that just hás to be a decent team...
But a team has to have the guts to try it...
Williams also struggled between 1969 and 1977, only to become a very succesful team. If you don't even try, you'll never succeed.
They could start to race under the name Lola (who after all don't have a great reputation in formula one to defend) and when they're starting to become succesful, change name to Aston Martin.
anyway epsilon euskadi isn't that bad, at least they have experience in building their own cars, so we got at least one decent team to choose from.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 08:10
by mario
AndreaModa wrote:Captain Hammer wrote:mario wrote:So, who has put in a credible application for the 2011 F1 season?
Epsilon Euskadi and Durango are the only ones we know of for certain. I wasn't expecting a hell of a lot of interest, given the way the new teams are all off the pace and the lack of a budget cap. However, I suspect there may be one or two teams who are doing as Manor Grand Prix did and keeping quiet until after the new entry is announced. Prodrive, Lola and USF1 were all very confident of being accepted to the grid. One of them got an entry but never made it, while two of them were passed over entirely.
That's a good shout, there were a lot of entries last year that got very little publicity at all, and yet one of them (Manor) got a slot so it isn't all doom and gloom, at least until the list is released!
True, although Manor did have the advantage of the tie in with Nick Wirth, so they did have some resources. I guess that there may be another entry who has decided to stay quiet, but given the need to secure sponsorship soon, you'd have to hope that they don't stay too quiet for too long.
I would guess that out of the two, Epsilon Euskadi might be the more credible (after all, Durango couldn't afford GP2, and there have been some members of the press who have accused them of cutting corners (sometimes dangerously, with a rear wing once falling off in a high speed turn), and Dallara even impounded one of their cars for safety violations (due to bodged repairs resulting from a shortage of funds)).
I suppose that Epsilon would at least have workers who are familiar with working with carbon fibre, and would have a factory to work out of (even if it might require retooling).
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 09:57
by Captain Hammer
AndreaModa wrote:That's a good shout, there were a lot of entries last year that got very little publicity at all, and yet one of them (Manor) got a slot so it isn't all doom and gloom, at least until the list is released!
Well, that would be because teams are not awarded grid positions based on the amount of publicity they receive.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 14:23
by Phoenix
This wrote:Lola makes the cars for aston martin/prodrive in le mans, they could join forces again..., in my opinion that just hás to be a decent team...
But a team has to have the guts to try it...
Williams also struggled between 1969 and 1977, only to become a very succesful team. If you don't even try, you'll never succeed.
They could start to race under the name Lola (who after all don't have a great reputation in formula one to defend) and when they're starting to become succesful, change name to Aston Martin.
The problem is that you can't afford to struggle 8 consecutive years in today's F1 (unless you're called Minardi, of course) because you wouldn't have sponsors and the money would run out in a blink. You have to be incredibly well prepared to enter F1 today. If they're not feeling like entering and being able to do something, the better for them to be on the sidelines.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 14:57
by watka
I think what F1 really needs is Team Superfund.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 15:01
by DemocalypseNow
watka wrote:I think what F1 really needs is Team Superfund.
However F1 does not need Alexander Wurz...again.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 15:01
by Phoenix
watka wrote:I think what F1 really needs is Team Superfund.
I'd root for
myf1dream.com.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 15:55
by Klon
Phoenix wrote:watka wrote:I think what F1 really needs is Team Superfund.
I'd root for
myf1dream.com.
Haven't their boss being heard complaining about the 1000,- $ fee for the first application step? Seriously, our own effort would be better than this...
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 17 Apr 2010, 15:57
by Nessafox
Klon wrote:Phoenix wrote:watka wrote:I think what F1 really needs is Team Superfund.
I'd root for
myf1dream.com.
Haven't their boss being heard complaining about the 1000,- $ fee for the first application step? Seriously, our own effort would be better than
this...
what's wrong with my entry?
(yes i have a car design! made from lego!)
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 18 Apr 2010, 13:36
by Phoenix
This wrote:what's wrong with my entry?
(yes i have a car design! made from lego!)
You haven't lodged it yet.
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 18 Apr 2010, 21:53
by Nessafox
Phoenix wrote:This wrote:what's wrong with my entry?
(yes i have a car design! made from lego!)
You haven't lodged it yet.
i knew i forgot something
i also realised the wheels of my car can't steer
(don't have enough lego-technic blocks to make the thing work, so i did it mainly with regular blocks)
another downside of my design is that my front wing keeps falling off, a bit like kobayashi's sauber
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 19 Apr 2010, 14:19
by Phoenix
This wrote:Phoenix wrote:This wrote:what's wrong with my entry?
(yes i have a car design! made from lego!)
You haven't lodged it yet.
i knew i forgot something
i also realised the wheels of my car can't steer
(don't have enough lego-technic blocks to make the thing work, so i did it mainly with regular blocks)
another downside of my design is that my front wing keeps falling off, a bit like kobayashi's sauber
Don't worry. eBay offers a wide supply of parts that could be useful for your car. About that front wing, a bit of Loctite will help here (only make sure that Henkel doesn't scam you).
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 19 Apr 2010, 18:52
by Nessafox
Phoenix wrote:Don't worry. eBay offers a wide supply of parts that could be useful for your car. About that front wing, a bit of Loctite will help here (only make sure that Henkel doesn't scam you).
using loctite on lego parts would be blasphemy!
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 20 Apr 2010, 13:45
by Phoenix
This wrote:Phoenix wrote:Don't worry. eBay offers a wide supply of parts that could be useful for your car. About that front wing, a bit of Loctite will help here (only make sure that Henkel doesn't scam you).
using loctite on lego parts would be blasphemy!
Maybe, but we don't want scary accidents and unhappy drivers suing us, right?
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 20 Apr 2010, 14:35
by AndreaModa
Plus you'd have an excellent main sponsor! Just like Lotus in the early 90s!
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 20 Apr 2010, 14:35
by Phoenix
AndreaModa wrote:Plus you'd have an excellent main sponsor! Just like Lotus in the early 90s!
Hitachi?
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 20 Apr 2010, 14:41
by AndreaModa
Re: Prodrive rules out F1 in 2011
Posted: 20 Apr 2010, 14:44
by Phoenix
