Reject Circuits

[Captain Hammer]

Wow, I'm surprised this one hasn't come up yet. I tried a search for both "reject circuit" and "reject tracks", but was told the search terms were too common to yield any results. Mods if this has been done - I had a once-over, but couldn't find a thing - please forgive, and do with this as you will.

So: reject circuits. The tracks that make you wonder "What in the hell were they thinking when they designed that!?" now get a thread to call their own. A dubious honour, but an honour no less. In order to qualify as a reject circuit, a venue must have held at least two races that you consider to be boring, uninspiring, insipid or any other similar adjectives I haven't thought of. Don't just nominate a circuit on the basis that Herman Tilke designed it (blame the rulebook and the fact that he has to work within the boundaries of the tract of land set aside for the circuit); give me an actual reason. If a circuit has been dramatically reconfigured between races, consider each configuration to be a different venue.

I'm going to nominate the Phoenix Street Circuit; although reconfigured between 1990 and 1991, both iterations were a myriad of right-angled bends and the bulk of the circuit remained intact. I'm also going to suggest Caesar's Palace as it was the most Mickey Mouse circuit in the history of Mickey Mouse circuits and nothing more than a marketing gimmick for the casino. The A1-Ring also gets a nod, because it was nothing more than a watered-down version of the Österreichring that took everything good about the original circuit and simply made a tamer version. Somewhat controversially, I'm also going to list Silverstone here. While the section from Copse down to Stowe is one of my favourite sections of any ciruit on the calendar, everything else is just a chicane. Club Corner used to be fantastic until The Vale slowed everyone down. Abbey used to be a high-speed left kick until the corner was moved back and changed into a left/right combination. And everything from Priory through Brooklands, Luffield and into Woodcote has a history of being reconfigured into fiddly chicanes. Even the new "Arrowhead" configuration for MotoGP does it, leaving the main circuit at Abbey by way of a right/left chicane (though in Arrowhead's defence, it rejoins halfway through Brooklands, dramatically altering the final section of the circuit).

Discuss (that's an order)!

[Salamander]

Clearly the Hungaroring has to be mentioned. While it is one of the few motor racing venues in Eastern Europe capable of holding an F1 event, it is very, very dull. There are almost no straights to speak of, and most of the track looks like an extended slalom. There are a couple of elevation changes, I think, but they haven't been capitalised on. I know tracks do sometimes have crappy plots to be built on, but, as I said, surely they could've done something with the elevation changes, and not make an extended slalom. The only memorable race was, of course, in 2006 when it rained, but that was the only time it rained. Perhaps the FIA should move the GP to sometime when it rains more in Hungary?

[Captain Hammer]

I don't knwo about the Hungaoring. Everyone hates it, but seven different people have won it in the past seven years ... to me, that doesn't make for a dull circuit, especially considering no other venue on the calendar has that claim to fame.

[Jack O Malley]

Every Tilkodrome bar Istanbul park.

[Pedro_Diniz]

To be fair, Sepang is a fantastic circuit which provides good racing, so Istanbul Park isn't the only good Tilke circuit.

I'd also like to defend the A1 Ring. I didn't grow up knowing the original Ostereichring, but to me the A1 ring was a nice circuit. I can't remember a dull race at the A1 Ring and the track had at least 3 overtaking opportunities. I know it was pretty much a few straights joined by some tight right-handers.... plus, the scenery was always nice!

As for reject circuits, Catalunya is up there for me. The circuit is just awful for racing and, even with this year's regulations, the overtaking is always minimal. The new section at the end of the lap is terrible and kills any momentum a following driver may have in the hope to get a toe down the long straight. Maybe they could do something about turn one which will enable more overtaking into it??

[Jack O Malley]

To be fair, Sepang is a fantastic circuit which provides good racing, so Istanbul Park isn't the only good Tilke circuit.

Sepang may be a good circuit, but I think that, like Shangai, Bahrain, etc., lacks of any appeal. I don't like those circuits planned on a desk and built on a flat ground, in the middle of nowhere. They are too similar to each other and they can't provide reference points. I can't explain it very well... but the fact that after ten years of Sepang racing I still can't remember the correct layout of the circuit, says much.

I'd also like to defend the A1 Ring. I didn't grow up knowing the original Ostereichring, but to me the A1 ring was a nice circuit. I can't remember a dull race at the A1 Ring and the track had at least 3 overtaking opportunities. I know it was pretty much a few straights joined by some tight right-handers.... plus, the scenery was always nice!

I liked it, even if it was reprofiled by Tilke it was nice. Such a shame now it's completely abandoned...

The new section at the end of the lap is terrible

Wasn't it designed by Tilke?

[Salamander]

I don't knwo about the Hungaoring. Everyone hates it, but seven different people have won it in the past seven years ... to me, that doesn't make for a dull circuit, especially considering no other venue on the calendar has that claim to fame.

That is a fair point, and it is nice to have a track where no-one has a monopoly or sure-fire way to win, but the fact is there is very little overtaking at the track if any at all. A low amount of overtaking almost always equates to a dull track, especially in this new era of super-reliability when you know hardly anyone is going to retire.

[Debaser]

Catalunya is a terrible track, most races at Catalunya send you to sleep. I think its the worst track in F1, it deserves reject status.

[rffp]

I would go for Magny-Cours, which produced some of the dullest races seen that circuit bumped Paul Ricard out of the championship, which was one of the best tracks in the 80's.

[Pedro_Diniz]

To be fair, Sepang is a fantastic circuit which provides good racing, so Istanbul Park isn't the only good Tilke circuit.

Sepang may be a good circuit, but I think that, like Shangai, Bahrain, etc., lacks of any appeal. I don't like those circuits planned on a desk and built on a flat ground, in the middle of nowhere. They are too similar to each other and they can't provide reference points. I can't explain it very well... but the fact that after ten years of Sepang racing I still can't remember the correct layout of the circuit, says much.

Well, before we got a mass influx of Tilkedromes, Sepang was fresh and modern and the track is still his finest, in my opinion - I prefer it to Istanbul Park

The new section at the end of the lap is terrible

Wasn't it designed by Tilke?

It was indeed

[Ross Prawn]

Topically - Silverstone!

Yes I know its got lots of history, and its very fast but....

Its flat as a pancake, basically an old airfield, and you have to buy a grandstand seat to get a half decent view. At Brands you used to be able to sit on the bank just past Druids and watch half the circuit.

Its only got one real overtaking spot, at Abbey.

The new complex is tedious, like watching cars drive round a Tesco car park.

[Captain Hammer]

Every Tilkodrome bar Istanbul park.

Seriously, man, can you read? I just said not to nominate circuits designed by Tilke on the basis that they were designed by Tilke give an actual reason as to why those circuits are poor, for crying out loud.

[Bort]

I loved the A1 Ring. I can't remember seeing a dull race there ever.

Hungaroring is a reject track. Dull track with the exception of the first corner on the first lap.
Ceasars Palace. Enough said. Horrible.

[minrdi]

I have to agree that Caesars Palace, Phoenix and the current Barcelona and Magny Cours layouts are definite candidates.

The 1992-3 Kyalami circuit was a horrible burchering of a once-great circuit, and the two races on the revised track were very processional. Yes, the opening sequence of the 1993 race (the 3-way battle between Senna, Prost and Schumacher) was exciting, but there was little else to write home about.

The TI Aida Circuit used for the 1994-5 Pacific Grands Prix was also a boring autodrome and neither of its races were particularly thrilling. With it also being in the middle of nowhere and very inaccessible (not a common concept in Japan, I will add!), it was wisely shelved after its second race.

Although against the (arbitrary) "rules" of this thread as dictated by Captain Hammer, I will nominate Dallas for a dishonourable inclusion on the list of Reject Circuits. The track broke up in the searing heat and made the race a lottery - Piercarlo Ghinzani scored his only points finish in his lengthy career in this race! The F1 circus justifiably never returned there again, and it clearly has merit as a Reject circuit.

I personally support other posters and I would nominate several of Tilke's creations because of how artificial and sterile the designs are - the butchering of the Nurburgring and Hockenheim are cases in point.

Furthermore, if other posters wish to nominate the Tilkedromes, then let them. These forums are about creating discussion in a fun and (hopefully!) informed environment, and provided no specific codes of conduct are breached, then we shoud be allowed to post thread contributions that relate to the theme of the discussion, and we shouldn't resort to personal attacks regarding someone's opinion.

[Captain Hammer]

The TI Aida Circuit used for the 1994-5 Pacific Grands Prix was also a boring autodrome and neither of its races were particularly thrilling. With it also being in the middle of nowhere and very inaccessible (not a common concept in Japan, I will add!), it was wisely shelved after its second race.

I don't know about it not being a common concept; Autopolis was originally constructed with the intention of hosting Formula One races, but like TI Aida, it too is fairly isolated, so the best it can manage now is SuperGT. A shame, because it looks like a pretty good layout. Nothing will beat Suzuka, but Autopolis reigns over any incarnation of Fuji.

[dr-baker]

The TI Aida Circuit used for the 1994-5 Pacific Grands Prix was also a boring autodrome and neither of its races were particularly thrilling. With it also being in the middle of nowhere and very inaccessible (not a common concept in Japan, I will add!), it was wisely shelved after its second race.

I don't know about it not being a common concept; Autopolis was originally constructed with the intention of hosting Formula One races, but like TI Aida, it too is fairly isolated, so the best it can manage now is SuperGT. A shame, because it looks like a pretty good layout. Nothing will beat Suzuka, but Autopolis reigns over any incarnation of Fuji.

I seem to remember that a scheduled GP at Autopolis in 1993 was replaced by the European GP at Donington Park that year. And didn't they sponser Benetton prior to holding the race that didn't happen in the end?

[Jack O Malley]

Every Tilkodrome bar Istanbul park.

Seriously, man, can you read? I just said not to nominate circuits designed by Tilke on the basis that they were designed by Tilke give an actual reason as to why those circuits are poor, for crying out loud.

Aw, sorry . BTW, i explained it in my next post: Sepang but especially Bahrain and China are too flat, too wide, with no appeal and without any memorable feature (please don't say the 270 degrees copycat 1st turn in Sepang and Shangai...). The best things I can remember from these circuits is the futuristic grandstand in Sepang, the two bridges over the pit straight in Shangai and the sand flying over the track in Bahrain. That's it, I don't like them, it's only my opinion but I find them (especially BAH and CHN) dull.
I like Istanbul instead, it is quite fascinating, thanks to elevation changes, a tight 1st turn, the famous Turn 8 and the backstraight kink (le faux rouge).

I didn't like races in Valencia and Singapore but one race is not enough to award these circuits reject status.

And obviously I don't even want to think about the new Hockenheim. The only good thing is that now there are more stands and people see cars passing for more than only 45 times. I know that the tight hairpin often provides good overtaking, but I liked millions more the old layout, don't blame me.

About old circuits, I will obviously say Caesar's Palace and Nivelles.
Looking at its layout East London circuit seems very boring too, unless I'm very much mistaken.

[CarlosFerreira]

I may be a little picky, but I especially dislike Shangai. That first corner is boring and provides no action whatsoever, the rest is a lot of slow-to slowish corners. Not much interest there. The last corner, into the finish line, actually provided some fun this year, because the rain on the roof of the "control tower" was all falling down there, making a puddle; so I'd argue it's both uninteresting AND poorly thought-out.

[tristan1117]

I nominate Indianapolis. Even though it had some good races, the infield section was twisty and pointless. Caesar's Palace of course is another terrible one. Aida was in the middle of Japan surrounded by mountains, which sound more like a place for a restaurant then a grand prix track. The Hungaroring, Magny-Cours and Catalunya are the same things, no overtaking and no action.

[Captain Hammer]

Aw, sorry . BTW, i explained it in my next post: Sepang but especially Bahrain and China are too flat, too wide, with no appeal and without any memorable feature (please don't say the 270 degrees copycat 1st turn in Sepang and Shangai...). The best things I can remember from these circuits is the futuristic grandstand in Sepang, the two bridges over the pit straight in Shangai and the sand flying over the track in Bahrain. That's it, I don't like them, it's only my opinion but I find them (especially BAH and CHN) dull.

Funny you should mention Sepang and Bahrain as being unmemorable, because they actually have some of the most challenging corner combinations on the calendar. It's impossible to take Sepang's turns twelve, thirteen and fourteen in such a way that you collect every apex - the perfect line through twelve puts you off-line for thirteen; the perfect line for thirteen means you have to sacrifice the apex of twelve - and so no two drivers have the same line through the corners. You want to know why Jenson Button was so quick through that section compared to Glock this year, even when Glock was on the better compound? It's because Button is the only driver on the grid who can come close to nailing all three apexes.

As for Bahrain, turns nine and ten are challenging because in order to take turn ten properly, drivers have to brake and steer through nine at the same time.

[watka]

I'd also like to defend the A1 Ring. I didn't grow up knowing the original Ostereichring, but to me the A1 ring was a nice circuit. I can't remember a dull race at the A1 Ring and the track had at least 3 overtaking opportunities. I know it was pretty much a few straights joined by some tight right-handers.... plus, the scenery was always nice!

Seconded, A1 Ring was pretty memorable, even if it wasn't as suicidally fast as the old track. Love the run through the first corner right up to the top hairpin (Remus Kurve?), it was good to watch cars follow each other through there. It was also memorable for for Jarno Trulli leading in a Prost in 1997, and would have been on the podium if he didn't retire (Shinji Nakano had a strong shout at podium there too, but he also retired).

In terms of the British GP, I don't suppose Aintree was any better than Sliverstone. Looks very dull on paper.

[Pedro_Diniz]

Wasn't 1997 the year with the fantastic back-to-front grid thanks to a wet qualifying??

[Pedro_Diniz]

Also, I know Magny-Cours gets a lot of flack around here... but I quite like the first section of the lap. The sweeping right-hander which leads onto the long straight and then into the tight hairpin is cracking! It's the kind of thing that Tilke's been trying to tack onto all of his recent tracks.
It's a shame that the rest of the track is dull and the new final section isn't as fun as the previous one (just for Hakkinen's spin there a few years ago )

[Debaser]

Wasn't 1997 the year with the fantastic back-to-front grid thanks to a wet qualifying??

It was 1998, Fisichella got pole. And in 97, Trulli led, then they didn't put enough fuel in at his stop, then Nakano blew an engine (he was near the back) and a lap later Trulli's engine went. Also Magnussen was 4th for a while, as high as he ever got. It was a decent track in terms of action, there wasn't one dull race there. Surprised no one else thinks Catalunya is a reject track, its terrible.

[tc3j3r]

Zeltweg Airfield - held one race but the track surface proved to be unsuitable for F1 cars.

[Yannick]

To be honest, I think we must either look to the past or to other series to find the true "Reject Circuits".

Magny-Cours has had its fair share of different winners over the years as well as Hungaroring has had them, so obviously, both aren't reject tracks. The same actually goes for the "New" Nürburgring, which does indeed offer some exitement from time to time, and more of that when you look local series like DTM.

The new Hockenheim would deserve Reject Status on the basis of what a great, special and exciting track they wasted just to create it and the debt they got from actually going through with it. But it has hosted quite a few good races as well, only that the spectators have largely migrated from out of the Motodrom towards the Mercedes tribune, rendering the famous stadium section particularly empty last season.

Bahrain with its straights leading up to sharp corners and its location in the middle of the desert, complete with proneness to sandstorms would be a candidate as well. The flow of the track may be crap, but its design at least heavily promotes overtaking, which made for an exciting race at least in Nico Rosberg's debut race there a few seasons ago.

The A1-Ring had a number of interesting races going on on its surface, too. In fact, I think this is the best redesign of a traditional track that Tilke came up with.

It goes without saying that the Caesars Palace parking lot track with its repetitive design is the prime candidate for Reject Circuit, especially considering that the casinos actually drew larger crowds than the races held there.

Races at the Circuit de Catalunya suffer from the fact that this circuit is over-tested. But usually, it's the first time during each season when the real pecking order in the series can be visited - in qualifying that is. After that, it's do I really want to watch the race?

The verdict is still out on the "new" Fuji, with one race too wet and one race with too many unnecessary penalties, but it reportedly won't be given a 3rd chance.

Istanbul Kurtkoy may be an exciting track to race on, but this year's edition of the race was pretty boring. Goes to show that you need more factors than a good track to get a good race.

How about Adelaide with its history of two rain-soaked and interrupted events which destroyed at least half of the field's cars each? That's a spectacular and reject-worthy achievement as well, but Spa destroyed almost the whole field in the only "Big One" of F1's recent history in 1998 and nobody would call Spa a reject track.

The night race at Singapore with all its tarmac walls by the side of the track looks like it were held in a parking garage, not in a city. The first race there was pretty good though, with the next one having potential to be even better, even though drivers weren't content with the water tanks instead of tyre barriers.

Valencia Marina? The only street race in a town that also has got a permanent racetrack with a Grade 1 license? That alone does not make business sense. And with the sleeper of a race it provided last year, this event is about the only Grand Prix I'm not looking forward to this year. Also, they placed some of the grandstands in such a way that all the spectators can see from them is the cars rushing by on the street in front of the stands and the wide array of water behind the track. Boring.
The track has already made a strong bid to get an award one day. And you know which one it will be. ROTR.

Historically speaking, Montjuich Park with its spectacular and tragic accidents and lack of safety measures surely can be considered a reject track. It's one of those exceptions where people had it coming but common sense did not prevail. In a way, that was the case with Imola in the early 90s as well. Track safety was being upgraded everywhere and circuits were dropped because of lack of safety. Österreichring with its highspeed corners having had only guardrail but no runoff on their outsides had to go in the mid-80s. Yet, there weren't even any gravel traps in the Tamburello and Villeneuve corners at Imola in 94. And when they fixed the track, they went for the solution that's typical for Imola: even more chicanes, instead of being a little creative with the redesign. So Imola would be another Reject Track imho.

[dragonsteincole]

A1-Ring for me will always be a good track simply for the number of accidents that occured at turns 1 and 2. Turn one always had the chance to turn into a parking lot, remembering the Schumachers coming together there one year, and both Prost cars conspiring to give poor old Alain even more grey hairs. Turn 2 also had that massive Sato accident in the Jordan too. But apart from that it had character and a great surrounding.

Magny-Cours however was about as lifeless as Tesco's own brand cheese. Dull races, and I can guarantee that none of the winners of the race look at their trophy and think it was their best ever win. Unmemorable, except maybe Schumacher for tying up the championship mega-early there.

Valencia street circuit - i'm not a big fan of the actual proper circuit in the city, but deary me I can't even remember anything from the 2008 race apart from Raikonnen's pit troubles. Such a disappointment.

Most USA tracks - with the exclusion of Watkins Glen and Long Beach, the rest of the 'tracks' offered up by the yanks left so much to be desired. Oodles of street circuits and none of them setting the imagination alight.

And Silverstone - blame Keke Rosberg. If he hadn't left a trail of fire and burning rubber behind him with his balls-out quali lap then we may still have an unneutered track, and not the wobbly mess it is nowdays. I can also see why Bernie was so adamant to get rid of it. It has soul but it also has some of the crummiest facilites and grandstands of any track.

[watka]

On Catalunya, the point is that it simply gets tested on too much. Everyone is too familiar with it to be an interesting race. It makes a good MotoGP track though, that's for sure (as does Estoril).

[tristan1117]

The only memorable thing about Magny-Cours I can remember is when Schumacher took a win with 4 stops in 04.

How about Adelaide with its history of two rain-soaked and interrupted events which destroyed at least half of the field's cars each? That's a spectacular and reject-worthy achievement as well

As for Adelaide and its abnormally high curbs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8THtvPvH44

[Bort]

Looking at its layout East London circuit seems very boring too, unless I'm very much mistaken.

I would have thought the same from looking at the layout of Crystal Palace, but from what I have seen of the actual races plus racing on it myself on rFactor and GPL it isn't always the case of boring looking circuits making boring races.

[Captain Hammer]

I think Valencia deserves the benefit of the doubt a little. The 2008 race was marked by everyone sorting themselves out in order of speed by the first corner and that was it. Now that the new regulations are in place, it could well be an about-face for the circuit. That said, with the way Button's been dominating the championship, 2009 could go the same way as 2008.

There are other problems with the circuit, thoguh. Despite being a street circuit, it has extraordinary run-off areas, so there's no real penalty for making a mistake. And some of the corners are hardly deserving of the title "corner"; they're little kinks left and right that the driver barely has to turn the wheel for and never has to lift off. That said, I thik it's intentional: most of them come before the final corner, which is one of the tightest on the circuit. I think the intention was to create something like Silverstone with a high-speed section that forced the drivers to cut back and forth across the circuit and then weigh anchor for the final bend. All the driver errors happened on the approach into the final corner that weekend.

[Bleu]

About Valencia, it's not that much street track although it is located almost in the city. Also, the track was almost as smooth as Magny-Cours. Compare that what Singapore had, huge bumps in many places. Valencia had probably two bumps, one on each side of the swing bridge.

While not referring to track, Russian GP had to be mentioned. How many times that has been projected without success?

[Stewart]

Well, again I'm going to defend Silverstone. As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the finest circuits in the world. Yes, it's flat, but so is Suzuka, and I don't hear many people complaining about that. OK, I realise there are some gradients at Suzuka, but not in places where it matters. I've been to Silverstone many, many times, for F1 and other events, and I've never found the facilities to be a problem. Of course, it doesn't have flashy new buildings, but I really couldn't care less. I don't go to a GP to admire the architecture, I go to watch good racing on a great track. Silverstone delivers both for me, while the newer tracks with their fancy grandstands leave me pretty bored, if I'm honest.

Getting back to the topic of reject circuits, I'd add Fuji to the list. OK, the circuit isn't bad, but when you've got Suzuka available, no other circuit deserves consideration.

[thehemogoblin]

Zolder, anyone?

Taking a race away from Spa, which happens to be far and away my favorite F1 race (once you strip away the pageantry of Monaco), and taking the live of Gilles Villeneuve... and those chicanes look Tilke-esque.

[Captain Hammer]

I believe those chicanes were added after Villeneuve's death to stop it from happening again.

[Faustus]

Well, again I'm going to defend Silverstone. As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the finest circuits in the world. Yes, it's flat, but so is Suzuka, and I don't hear many people complaining about that. OK, I realise there are some gradients at Suzuka, but not in places where it matters. I've been to Silverstone many, many times, for F1 and other events, and I've never found the facilities to be a problem. Of course, it doesn't have flashy new buildings, but I really couldn't care less. I don't go to a GP to admire the architecture, I go to watch good racing on a great track. Silverstone delivers both for me, while the newer tracks with their fancy grandstands leave me pretty bored, if I'm honest.

+1.

[RejectSteve]

I believe those chicanes were added after Villeneuve's death to stop it from happening again.

The only chicane added after his death was the one at that corner, the other two were already on the track. Zolder seldom hosts eventful races because it is largely the narrow ribbon of tarmac the circuit consists of. A Belgian circuit that became a reject was Nivelles. The track itself was as flat as a Russian pancake with a fairly short length and not so many fearsome corners like Spa had. That the circuit was compared against Spa was probably its downfall, however, despite 90's-esque size run off areas and a standard of construction far beyond that of most circuits on the mid-70's calendar. Sadly, the circuit went bust before the end of the 70's and the ground it laid on is now a housing development.

[Ross Prawn]

Well, again I'm going to defend Silverstone............................ I don't go to a GP to admire the architecture, I go to watch good racing on a great track. Silverstone delivers both for me, while the newer tracks with their fancy grandstands leave me pretty bored, if I'm honest.

I bet you're paying for grandstand seat to watch all of this action. The Silverstone grandstands may not be fancy, but they make up for that in expense.

And another thing. After the Spanish GP, you can have a night out in Barcelona, after the Chinese GP you can have a night out in Shanghai, after the Singapore GP you can have a morning out in Singapore, after the Monaco GP you can have a night out in ..er.. Monaco, after the Turkish GP you can have a night out in Istanbul not Constantinople, after the Australian GP you can go round to Jamie's house for a beer, after the Dutch GP you could have a night in Amsterdam (if there was a Dutch GP), after the Brazilian GP you can get murdered in Sao Paulo etc...

After the British GP you can go to Burger King in Northampton. Case rests.

[Captain Hammer]

after the Brazilian GP you can get murdered in Sao Paulo

Only if you're wearing Toyota colours.

[tristan1117]

after the Brazilian GP you can get murdered in Sao Paulo

Only if you're wearing Toyota colours.

What if they mistake you for a late 80s Mclaren fan? AS long as you're not wearing a support Prost shirt...