2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread

Post by **mario** » 26 Aug 2010, 14:14

With the practise session for the race only one day away now, I think that it is about time that this thread was opened for any Spa related news.
First off, the changes to the circuit. As some of you might be aware, there have been some changes to the Les Combes run off, with the traditional grass and gravel replaced with tarmac sections instead. However, to try to discourage drivers from cutting across that part of the track, raised speed bumps, like the ones used for the Monza chicanes, are in place, with artificial grass behind the kerbs. In addition, the exit of the left hand turn features what has been described as a 50mm negative kerb (which I assume means that the track behind the kerb drops by 50mm), which is intended to make it even less attractive to go across the run off area. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86088
And, in case the description is a little unclear, here are a few pictures of Les Combes with the revised run off.

In addition, it has been announced that Nigel Mansell will, for the second time this season, act as the drivers representative on the stewarding panel, alongside Lars Osterlind, Garry Connelly and Yves Bacquelaine. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86097
Hopefully, after several controversial incidents in recent races, the racing will prove to be closer but cleaner then has sometimes been the case, and all those on the stewarding panel have a fairly relaxing race.

Meanwhile, Kubica thinks that the chances of Renault doing well at Spa will depend on whether they can get their F-duct system, which is just coming onto the car, will prove to be sufficiently effective to boost their top speed. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86091

Post by **mario** » 26 Aug 2010, 21:11

Further update - it appears that Button is planning on asking the stewards to take a harsher line to any attempts to cut the track. With the introduction of more asphalt run off areas at Les Combes and particularly around Eau Rouge, he wants the stewards to be very strict with those who try to cut the track and gain an advantage by using the run off areas.

"I think we need to make sure that people know where the edge of the circuit is," he said. "Because you're going to get a lot of people trying to go round the circuit, and a lot of people going straight, thinking they're not going to get noticed - and it's a massive difference and a massive benefit.

"So I think we need to make that clear with [FIA race director] Charlie [Whiting] beforehand - which I will do."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86125
Personally, I think it is a good idea - we have already seen several instances where drivers have abused the tarmac run off areas (particularly at the start of the 2009 race, where drivers used the run off at La Source to avoid having to back off, and in some instances gaining places, and also at Pouhon). It'll be interesting to see if anyone does get in trouble for trying to take a few too many liberties, or if the warning of penalties will be enough.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 26 Aug 2010, 21:24

mario wrote:Further update - it appears that Button is planning on asking the stewards to take a harsher line to any attempts to cut the track. With the introduction of more asphalt run off areas at Les Combes and particularly around Eau Rouge, he wants the stewards to be very strict with those who try to cut the track and gain an advantage by using the run off areas.
"I think we need to make sure that people know where the edge of the circuit is," he said. "Because you're going to get a lot of people trying to go round the circuit, and a lot of people going straight, thinking they're not going to get noticed - and it's a massive difference and a massive benefit.

"So I think we need to make that clear with [FIA race director] Charlie [Whiting] beforehand - which I will do."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86125
Personally, I think it is a good idea - we have already seen several instances where drivers have abused the tarmac run off areas (particularly at the start of the 2009 race, where drivers used the run off at La Source to avoid having to back off, and in some instances gaining places, and also at Pouhon). It'll be interesting to see if anyone does get in trouble for trying to take a few too many liberties, or if the warning of penalties will be enough.

I guess they'll be still allowed to take the outer asphalt area a bit if they bunch up at the start to avoid pileups, but not too much. Indeed, it's a very good idea from Button.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 26 Aug 2010, 21:41

Purely because he's said that, I reckon Jenson will be the first to take a tour of the new run off areas.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 26 Aug 2010, 21:54

What I can't understand is why the need for tarmac? Okay so we want large run-off areas, but we don't wan't gravel to avoid the cars getting beached and being forced to retire. So why replace it with tarmac when grass easily does the job? You can't get bogged down in it like you can with gravel, and you can't simply drive over it like tarmac as you're bound to spin. What they've done at Les Coombes is nuts in my opinion. I'll bet a tenner that at least 5 cars will use that area on lap 1.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 26 Aug 2010, 23:23

Enforcer wrote:Purely because he's said that, I reckon Jenson will be the first to take a tour of the new run off areas.

In the same vein that Tony Stewart took in the Daytona 500 a few years ago when he said he was worried about someone getting killed and then proceeding to spin Matt Kenseth out in front of the entire field?

It would be ironic if Button cuts Eau Rouge on the first lap and wrecks the entire field...

AndreaModa wrote:What I can't understand is why the need for tarmac? Okay so we want large run-off areas, but we don't wan't gravel to avoid the cars getting beached and being forced to retire. So why replace it with tarmac when grass easily does the job? You can't get bogged down in it like you can with gravel, and you can't simply drive over it like tarmac as you're bound to spin. What they've done at Les Coombes is nuts in my opinion. I'll bet a tenner that at least 5 cars will use that area on lap 1.

Because remember, in modern-era-motorsport-that-isn't-IndyCar, if you make a mistake on track, you shouldn't be punished for it.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 26 Aug 2010, 23:32

Cynon wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:What I can't understand is why the need for tarmac? Okay so we want large run-off areas, but we don't wan't gravel to avoid the cars getting beached and being forced to retire. So why replace it with tarmac when grass easily does the job? You can't get bogged down in it like you can with gravel, and you can't simply drive over it like tarmac as you're bound to spin. What they've done at Les Coombes is nuts in my opinion. I'll bet a tenner that at least 5 cars will use that area on lap 1.

Because remember, in modern-era-motorsport-that-isn't-IndyCar, if you make a mistake on track, you shouldn't be punished for it.

Yeah but with grass they aren't punished, except for having to slightly reduce their speed in order to control the car. If the stewards don't want the drivers to be penalised by having to run wide, they should just say bollocks to it, rip out the humps and tell these supposedly 'world class' drivers they can go where the hell they want. Then they can tear up the final results of the race and impose a shed load of penalties on all the cars that cut corners, and piss the fans off even more.

Oooh it makes my blood boil it really does!

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 27 Aug 2010, 00:41

I really can't understand the placing of asphalt to replace grass, in any case. If you run wide, you're meant to pay with either damaging your floor/wing(s) or maybe get stuck in damp earth. With asphalt, you don't really have to care about anything. As many have mentioned, drivers know how to use it as an advantage. I myself have gained many places in F1C by continuing to accelerate at a braking point, because I know all that will happen is that I'll run wide and find myself on some tarmac. Okay, sure, bumps have been placed. Do they make any difference? From the pictures mario have posted, I can see a clear route avoiding the bumps.

Anyway, I pray that it will be a wet race. The F1 website says it will. Then again, it said it for Canada.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 27 Aug 2010, 05:04

I just had an idea. Make all the runoff area a sudden six inch drop.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 27 Aug 2010, 05:16

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:I really can't understand the placing of asphalt to replace grass, in any case. If you run wide, you're meant to pay with either damaging your floor/wing(s) or maybe get stuck in damp earth. With asphalt, you don't really have to care about anything.

Except when it's grass or sand or whatever, there's a risk that a car will flip.

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 27 Aug 2010, 06:32

Correct, think JV's last race there. He took the right-side of the wall.

Game over...

Post by **mario** » 27 Aug 2010, 07:44

Captain Hammer wrote:
Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:I really can't understand the placing of asphalt to replace grass, in any case. If you run wide, you're meant to pay with either damaging your floor/wing(s) or maybe get stuck in damp earth. With asphalt, you don't really have to care about anything.

Except when it's grass or sand or whatever, there's a risk that a car will flip.

That is the point of introducing the tarmac areas - think of, for example, the spectacular crash that Trulli had at Silverstone (in 2004 I think) after his suspension failed at high speed. In the case, one of the front wheels dug into the gravel and ended up flipping the car violently, causing it to barrel roll several times. Equally, there are times when the gravel traps have failed to slow a car down effectively, because the surface of the gravel trap has been so heavily compacted that it is effectively solid, so the cars just bounce and skid across the surface.

Anyway, onto the cars themselves - a few shots of the cars coming out, and it appears that Ferrari have gone for a very aggressive rear wing set up, which looks essentially like a Monza spec wing, especially when compared to some of the other cars.
Ferrari rear wing

And, for contrast, the Williams and Mclaren rear wings, which are much larger and more sharply inclined.

So, it loks as if Ferrari are going to go for raw straight line speed in the 1st and 3rd sector to make up time. It's an interesting tactic, and could give them a sizeable advantage heading down the Kemmel straight, but they are going to be at a big disadvantage if it rains, which it is quite liable to do.

coops · Post by **coops** » 27 Aug 2010, 08:59

Ive just seen on the BBC a cluster of German fans with a vuvuzela decked out in their national colours. Pure class. Although I wouldnt want to be sitting in front of them!

Post by **tommykl** » 27 Aug 2010, 09:49

Qualifying should be awesome, as it's currently raining very, very hard where I am right now, which is not at all far from Spa (around 20 km).

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 27 Aug 2010, 09:55

Results are in! But Vitaly ain't do too well.

Bruno outpacing Heikki is something though!

Post by **mario** » 27 Aug 2010, 10:00

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:Results are in! But Vitaly ain't do too well.

Bruno outpacing Heikki is something though!

True, Petrov has struggled, but bear in mind that the conditions are more likely to have played their part - Kubica was on track when the conditions were much better, and Petrov went too deep into Les Combes later on when he was starting a lap fairly late on in the session. What we really need is a dry session to see where the drivers and cars stand, but at the moment, it doesn't look as if we will get that in a hurry.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 27 Aug 2010, 11:12

well... it's said to be rainy all weekend...

Post by **tommykl** » 27 Aug 2010, 11:15

Myrvold wrote:well... it's said to be rainy all weekend...

Bad news, I won't do much this weekend because of that (don't care really).
Good news, I'll stay home and watch a rainy race.

In other words...

HUZZAH!!!

Post by **mario** » 27 Aug 2010, 12:42

Interesting comment during the second practise session for those calling for the run off areas to be toughened up, as you have an interesting ally on your side. As Karun, Davidson and Croft were discussing the changes to the track, and the tarmac run off areas, attention turned to Pouhon, where a large number of drivers have gone wide.
Both Davidson and Karu have been suggesting that the corner should have, at the least, some grass on the inside of the corner (like Cpose at Silverstone), and preferably gravel. Now Croft rasied that point with Hermann Tilke, who happens to be at the track - and, when asked if the corner should have a grass run off area, he promptly replied "Yes, it should." When pressed about it, he said "Although the drivers aren't going to normally want to run wide at that corner, there is no real punishment for doing so. If you put a strip of grass there, then it would punish mistakes."

So, it seems that even a man criticised for producing bland track is keen to give the drivers more of a challenge and increase the punishment for making a mistake.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 27 Aug 2010, 12:50

PETROV SECOND!!!!

Err, damn you Kamui...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 27 Aug 2010, 17:41

Catching up with FP2. Images from inside Schuey's W01 seem to indicate a very recalcitrant car on turn in. Whatever happened to the people who produced the BGP01?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 27 Aug 2010, 17:58

CarlosFerreira wrote:Catching up with FP2. Images from inside Schuey's W01 seem to indicate a very recalcitrant car on turn in. Whatever happened to the people who produced the BGP01?

Who knows?

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 27 Aug 2010, 18:06

CarlosFerreira wrote:Catching up with FP2. Images from inside Schuey's W01 seem to indicate a very recalcitrant car on turn in. Whatever happened to the people who produced the BGP01?

Honda fired them.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 27 Aug 2010, 18:38

Waris wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Catching up with FP2. Images from inside Schuey's W01 seem to indicate a very recalcitrant car on turn in. Whatever happened to the people who produced the BGP01?

Honda fired them.

Actually wouldn't it be more precise to say Brawn himself - after all he had to lay off a lot of staff in early 2009. But don't forget the car was designed with Jenson in mind, although that is wearing a bit thin now.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:11

And don't forget that this is the same team that designed the fantastic fast Honda cars... errrhm...

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:17

Myrvold wrote:And don't forget that this is the same team that designed the fantastic fast Honda cars... errrhm...

At least their 2006 car was good.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 Aug 2010, 04:48

To bring back the sand/gravel/grass v. pavement discussion, cars do not slow down in grass. At all. It makes it nearly impossible for drivers to control cars in it. So, that's why there has been the move toward pavement.

But I think they should do what I think was done at not Constantinople and put an incredibly abrasive concrete down, to punish the drivers who venture off the track.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Aug 2010, 09:50

50 minutes in FP3 but Vettel's car has had a failure of some sort. The mechanices are looking around the vicinity of the engine.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 28 Aug 2010, 09:53

CarlosFerreira wrote:Catching up with FP2. Images from inside Schuey's W01 seem to indicate a very recalcitrant car on turn in. Whatever happened to the people who produced the BGP01?

Honda stopped bankrolling them, and they couldn't get that lucky twice...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:10

And Bridgestone are suspecting that there may not be a large-enough allocation of wets and inters to last the weekend:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86177

And it's something that Flav went on about before, but which Bridgestone thought was rubbish... until yesterday...

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:12

dr-baker wrote:And Bridgestone are suspecting that there may not be a large-enough allocation of wets and inters to last the weekend:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86177

And it's something that Flav went on about before, but which Bridgestone thought was rubbish... until yesterday...

The funny thing is, it may be better to go out in Q2 and save the sets of tires for Sunday. It's also tempting for Michael Schumacher, given his 10-place grid penalty, to not go out in Q1 or Q2 to save the tires for later.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:15

thehemogoblin wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And Bridgestone are suspecting that there may not be a large-enough allocation of wets and inters to last the weekend:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86177

And it's something that Flav went on about before, but which Bridgestone thought was rubbish... until yesterday...

The funny thing is, it may be better to go out in Q2 and save the sets of tires for Sunday. It's also tempting for Michael Schumacher, given his 10-place grid penalty, to not go out in Q1 or Q2 to save the tires for later.

This weekend just keeps getting more and more interesting by the minute.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:24

I really don't like the over-reliance on run off areas, at least with paul ricard the bits that look painted have a material in them that will slow the car down, or at least thats what wikipedia says about it.

If anything they are there for other series drivers to be safe, semi-pros in the likes of the le mans series or any national series that dares to use them.

Also, i'm assuming that a certain percentage of an F1 driver's superlicense goes into paying for these safety measures.

In my opinion:

Run off areas at the end of straightline speed sections YES

At chicanes NO.

At places of low to medium speed that may take too long to explain via mobile phone. NO

Also, I have a han solo like bad feeling about a crash happening involving hand operated fduct drivers during the race.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:29

thehemogoblin wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And Bridgestone are suspecting that there may not be a large-enough allocation of wets and inters to last the weekend:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86177

And it's something that Flav went on about before, but which Bridgestone thought was rubbish... until yesterday...

The funny thing is, it may be better to go out in Q2 and save the sets of tires for Sunday. It's also tempting for Michael Schumacher, given his 10-place grid penalty, to not go out in Q1 or Q2 to save the tires for later.

He probably has to make an effort to qualify after the Arrows thing where they didn't set a time a few years back. Of course, why not make a very poor effort that'll do less damage to the one set of tires you use. It's also an option for the lower midfield like Torro Rosso, Sauber, The Force, or even Williams (since they'll waltz past the bottom 3 teams fairly quickly anyway).

With Spa being unpredictable, the rain might hold off the race though and the tactic wouldn't work. (even though it's forecast to piss). And if they all do it, it's also pointless.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:37

Enforcer wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And Bridgestone are suspecting that there may not be a large-enough allocation of wets and inters to last the weekend:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86177

And it's something that Flav went on about before, but which Bridgestone thought was rubbish... until yesterday...

The funny thing is, it may be better to go out in Q2 and save the sets of tires for Sunday. It's also tempting for Michael Schumacher, given his 10-place grid penalty, to not go out in Q1 or Q2 to save the tires for later.

He probably has to make an effort to qualify after the Arrows thing where they didn't set a time a few years back. Of course, why not make a very poor effort that'll do less damage to the one set of tires you use. It's also an option for the lower midfield like Torro Rosso, Sauber, The Force, or even Williams (since they'll waltz past the bottom 3 teams fairly quickly anyway).

With Spa being unpredictable, the rain might hold off the race though and the tactic wouldn't work. (even though it's forecast to piss). And if they all do it, it's also pointless.

At this point, one has to bet on rain and be pleasantly surprised with dry weather this weekend.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:41

thehemogoblin wrote:At this point, one has to bet on rain and be pleasantly surprised with dry weather this weekend.

Well considering it's Spa you'ld be considered insane to not bet on rain at some point during any racing weekend at Spa.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 28 Aug 2010, 10:49

I wouldn't mind a wet qualifying to shake the grid up and then a dry race to separate the men from the boys.

Anyway, whatever the case, tyres could be an issue like in Canada - Bridgestone is afraid there are going to be paddock-wide shortages of intermediate tyres yesterday because everyone went out on inters in first practice yesterday when Bridgestone's number-crunching said the wets would be better-suited to the conditions. But I suppose it was one of those cases where someone goes out on inters and sets a semi-decent time, so everyone else is compelled to, even if the rubber dies in the space of ten laps.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 28 Aug 2010, 11:42

What the Mercedes situation shows is that BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes never understood their cars, for whatever reason. We thought those problems have been cured under Brawn, but they really weren't and it already showed last year when their updates made the car slower.

Despite being a very well funded team, BAR never produced a convincent car until 2004. Then they were unable to make it last and got stuck and slightly backwards during 2005 and 2006. The team went havoc with the 2007 and 2008 cars and suddenly found something in their 2009 car, but then they couldn't manage to improve it and had to rely on the big advantage they had at the beginning.

Now if you compare this years' times to last years', you'll find out that most teams are quicker this year (as you'd expect) while Mercedes are slower than Brawn were most of the time. Let's take Hungary qualifying, for the only reason that it is the most recent one. Button's best was 1:20.707, Barrichello's was 1:21.222. This year Rosberg clocked 1:20.811, Schumacher 1.21.630. You'll find out that most teams don't show this pattern, save maybe Williams. On top of this, Hungary last year was a miserable race by Brawn's standards, Button qualifying 8th and finishing 7th, Barrichello 13th and 10th, yet they've managed to go even slower this season.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 Aug 2010, 12:04

What did that barrier do to deserve that, Vitaly?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 28 Aug 2010, 12:07

thehemogoblin wrote:What did that barrier do to deserve that, Vitaly?

Rookie mistake by Petrov, my bet was on Liuzzi or Alguersuari to go out in Q1 but it doesn't look like it now.