Branson & Fernandez vs Blue Flags (Another slow news day)

[TomWazzleshaw]

Might as well give you guys something to discuss while we wait for something major to happen.

[Shizuka]

This would make races dangerous.

[TimmyB]

Firstly, this is not about banning blue flags, but banning the current rules around blue flags and returning them to being advisory.

Secondly, next year the lapped cars will be able to make back some of the lost time if they stay within a second of the lapping car, because they'll be able to adjust their rear wing as per 2011 regulations.

Thirdly, since safety cars have been introduced into F1 the penatly for getting lapped can be far larger, and the places where the blue flags matter most (eg. Monaco and Singapore) are where the safety car matters most.

Good try by the backmarker teams but at the end of the day if you're being lapped then chances are you're not fighting for points (in this era) so who cares?

[Captain Hammer]

Ferrari won't ike this. Luca di Montgomeryburns (see what I did there?) was very critical of the new teams after Alonso was "blocked" in Montreal - by a Virgin - which allowed Jenson Button to take a run at him, and the McLaren got through. Although I'd say Alonso's inability to pass backmarkers five seconds a lap slower than the race leaders is a more pressing concern for Maranello.

Anyway, I don't think banning the blue flags would make the racing dangerous. Sure, you can point to Mark Webber's Valencia backflip as proof of the inherent danger, but honestly: Formula 1 drivers are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. Anyone who can't get around a backmarker should have his Superlicence looked at.

[coops]

Two guys who know nothing about F1 want to re-write the rule book and they come up with ludicrous suggestions like these. Shocking. The fact that the blue flags are the ones their drivers see the most has nothing to do with it, Im sure. Its difficult enough to get past the rejectful cars at certain tracks and now they want to make it harder and more dangerous. I support the rejects and enjoy watching their escapades but I dont want the race to grind to a halt while P1 cant get past P21.

[eytl]

I have mixed thoughts about this.

On one hand, I have thought that the current rules have a bit too much "nanny state" about them. There are already so many lost arts in F1 these days, one of which is the ability to scythe through backmarkers who aren't obligated to simply stay well clear. To use an obvious example, it's what set Senna apart from Prost - in fact, it's one of the things which make most agree that Senna was greater than Prost.

On the other hand, whilst overtaking in F1 has never been easy, it was easier back in the days of Senna and Prost. The time gap between the top cars this year and the Lotuses and Virgins is the same as the gap between the best and the midfield in the late-80s, early-90s, which facilitated the lapping of backmarkers. So too, of course, did the lesser dependence on aerodynamics. I think there is also an argument to be made that these days the margins are finer and the style of racing amongst the lead competitors depends on them pretty much running flat-out all race (even with the no-refuelling regulations, this means running to the maximum given a particular engine setting at a particular time) - unlike 20 years ago when drivers paced themselves over a race distance. The way the racing works these days you simply can't afford to have races decided by the fairly arbitrary measure of who had the better run with backmarkers who were not obliged to back off. For even though there is definitely a question of skill when it comes to lapping backmarkers, giving the option to backmarkers as to whether they cooperate means you run the risk of modern-day Alliots and de Cesaris's and Arnouxs spoiling races that are decided by tenths-of-second moments rather than tens-of-seconds moments.

I can't help but think that Branson has also jumped on this bandwagon because the disgraceful showboating of Lucas di Grassi at Singapore may well have cost Lewis Hamilton the championship - and just as easily could have cost Mark Webber.

On balance, whilst I prefer the "good ol' days", in today's context I think the current rules should stay.

[ADx_Wales]

If any of the front runners start at the back and easily scythe past the slow six, then they should have no problem lapping them whilst battling for The lead.

And if the top teams weren't so selfish last year these new teams would not be getting in their way.

[madcat]

There is also the issue that smaller teams could them "help" some teams, ie you can see a Toro Rosso moving out for a Red Bull and then blocking the Ferraris or Lotus making life easier for the Renault team.

[eagleash]

I feel the blue flags should be advisory only.
There are already rules in respect of blocking/weaving.
A quicker car should be able to get past a slower one
I would expect a backmarker to not be uncooperative.

[ADx_Wales]

Audi and Peugeot had no difficulty this weekend getting past slower cars this weekend...

[patrick]

Audi and Peugeot had no difficulty this weekend getting past slower cars this weekend...

Yeah but the speed difference there is far greater. Plus it's easier for an LMP to just punt a stubborn porsche off the track or just dive past if they won't move

And for what it's worth, it rather sounds like Branson is just saying it because he's seen how much good rep Fernandes has got from being so involved with his team and the sport. I don't actually think he cares

[mario]

Audi and Peugeot had no difficulty this weekend getting past slower cars this weekend...

Yeah but the speed difference there is far greater. Plus it's easier for an LMP to just punt a stubborn porsche off the track or just dive past if they won't move

Exactly - the Peugeot 908 and Audi R15+ were the thick end of two seconds a lap quicker then the other LMP1 cars, let alone the lower categories, and I think that they use a blue flag system anyway. Alternatively, as Davidson pointed out, at the Spa 1000km earlier this year, he was around 30 seconds a lap faster then the slowest cars on track - and at Le Mans, when he was desperately trying to catch the Audi's up after earlier problems, he managed to push one of the Corvette's off the track (in fact, he pushed the class leader off into retirement, which enraged the Corvette team).

And Captain Hammer, firstly, at Canada it was Chandhok's HRT that Alonso was stuck behind, and secondly, he came across him in Turn 7, where you really can't pass somebody easily. Alonso had to ease off on the throttle, which in turn allowed Button to catch Alonso out and pass him up the inside at Turn 8. It was a clever move by Button, to be fair, but owed a little to luck - after all, by your logic, then perhaps we should question the passing ability of Ayrton Senna after the 1989 Hungarian GP, where a similar hesitation behind a backmarker allowed Mansell to get past him in much the same fashion.

[patrick]

Also someone mentioned before, removing the blue flag in F1 might make it easier for customer teams to play dirty and hold up rivals.
just out of interest - I don't follow LMS as much as I'd like, but do the lower classes ever hold up faster LMP's - for example GT class 911's holding up other rival prototypes to benefit 962's in the 80s.

[DemocalypseNow]

Anyway, I don't think banning the blue flags would make the racing dangerous. Sure, you can point to Mark Webber's Valencia backflip as proof of the inherent danger, but honestly: Formula 1 drivers are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. Anyone who can't get around a backmarker should have his Superlicence looked at.

And just to prove the point about Webber vs Kovalainen is redundant, they were racing for position when it happened! (Shortly after an unexpected pitstop for Mark I believe which put him that far down...)

[coops]

Audi and Peugeot had no difficulty this weekend getting past slower cars this weekend...

Thats a bit different, though. Clip an Audi and you get a dent. Clip a Red Bull and, well, ask Lewis Hamilton...

[Cynon]

I say keep them as advisory, because then we can have hilarious mobile chicannery!

If P1 can't get past P21, then that's a problem with the aerodynamics and the tracks, don't you think?

[Ferrim]

What happens if it's the last race of the season, Alonso needs to win and Massa falls down the order and starts massively blocking Webber, who is about to lap him?

Of course that can also happen without being lapped, but at least it requires the blocking driver to actually be ahead on track.

And about that... a possible scenario for the final race of the season, with current rules: Alonso needs to finish in front of Webber to take the title. They are running 1st and 5th (Webber in the lead) with Massa 7th. Then everyone goes into the pits for their mandatory pit stops, bar the Ferraris, and Massa in 2nd place begins to block everyone else, so that Alonso has the time to build a suitable gap.

[Phoenix]

I don't really care if blue flags are kept, but I'd remove them for amusing purposes and extra challenge for drivers

[dr-baker]

I don't really care if blue flags are kept, but I'd remove them for amusing purposes and extra challenge for drivers

And then we could have a re-run of Japan 1993, with Irvine unlapping himself from Senna, with Senna not being best-pleased...

[mario]

What happens if it's the last race of the season, Alonso needs to win and Massa falls down the order and starts massively blocking Webber, who is about to lap him?

Of course that can also happen without being lapped, but at least it requires the blocking driver to actually be ahead on track.

And about that... a possible scenario for the final race of the season, with current rules: Alonso needs to finish in front of Webber to take the title. They are running 1st and 5th (Webber in the lead) with Massa 7th. Then everyone goes into the pits for their mandatory pit stops, bar the Ferraris, and Massa in 2nd place begins to block everyone else, so that Alonso has the time to build a suitable gap.

Perhaps the closest example of that sort of behaviour happening would be in 1975 at the US Grand Prix, at Watkins Glen.

Although by that point Fittipaldi was mathematically out of the title hunt, and Lauda had already won, there was still a sizeable amount of money at stake for the winner of the race, and Fittipaldi was determined to try and end the year on a high note with a win. Lauda lead away from Fittipaldi from the start, with the two drivers separated by about 1 second in the opening laps. Further back, though, Lauda's team mate, Regazzoni, collided with Fittipaldi's team mate, Mass. Although Mass did not sustain any serious damage, Regazzoni had to pit for a new nose, putting him well down the order and effectively out of the race.

Now, on lap 18, Lauda and Fittipaldi, still very close to each other on the track, came up behind Regazzoni to lap him. Seeing the blue flags, Regazzoni pulled aside to let Lauda through very cleanly, as you would expect. However, he promptly cut back in front of Fittipaldi, and for the next six laps, proceeded to weave and block Fittipaldi as aggressively as he could, all the while ignoring the blue flags that the marshalls were waving in front of him, in order to let Lauda break away from Fittipaldi.
Eventually, the Clerk of the Course was so incensed by Regazzoni's driving, and fearing that he would take Fittipaldi out altogether, black flagged Regazzoni - and it was only at that point that Regazzoni let Fittipaldi through. By that point, Lauda had pulled out a 15 second lead, which meant that he could comfortably cruise to the finish ahead of Fittipaldi, and effectively ruined any hope of seeing the drivers fight it out until the flag.

It was because of incidents like this that we have ended up with the automatic penalty for failing to pull over after more than three flags - and I suppose that it is not out of bounds that similar events could happen again.

[Phoenix]

Well, in that case, tough luck for the unfortunate. As if things like that couldn't happen today (you could argue that when a driver from Team X is going to lap his teanmate while fighting with a driver from Team Y, you can expect the second Team X car to get out of the way more cleanly when lapped by his teammate, and that can still make a difference)...Besides, the situation in which a car from a competitive team is lapped by the other car happens, yet it's not that frequent. I think it's part of the team spirit inherent in F1, even if some people still insist in deny that. Besides, the blocked driver still has a chance (no matter how little can it be) from unblocking himself.
And I didn't know there were blue flags as soon as in 1975. Thanks for enriching my knowledge again, Mario!

[Nessafox]

i'd just say: give lapped drivers a complete lap time to let the faster car past.