Grand Prix Rejects

Pacific 777 wrote:FOM Sends warning to historical circuits.

http://espn.com/f1/story/_/id/25205811/ ... c-circuits

Well. Try an F1 season without Silverstone and Monza, and see what happens. Hopefully the fans desert F1 in droves.

I hear VW are considering an F1 entry as well...

Pacific 777 wrote:Well. Try an F1 season without Silverstone and Monza, and see what happens. Hopefully the fans desert F1 in droves.

Actually, I would prefer a season without Silverstone. Most overrated racing track on the F1 calendar now that Malaysia is gone.

As a lover of Silverstone, I say boo-urns, Klon!

The Hanoi track looks like the kind of thing I'd make on gmap-pedometer. I like it.

Pacific 777 wrote:FOM Sends warning to historical circuits.

http://espn.com/f1/story/_/id/25205811/ ... c-circuits

Well. Try an F1 season without Silverstone and Monza, and see what happens. Hopefully the fans desert F1 in droves.

1980. Brands Hatch and Imola...

dr-baker wrote:

Pacific 777 wrote:FOM Sends warning to historical circuits.

http://espn.com/f1/story/_/id/25205811/ ... c-circuits

Well. Try an F1 season without Silverstone and Monza, and see what happens. Hopefully the fans desert F1 in droves.

1980. Brands Hatch and Imola...

And that turned out to be the last season of the original World Championship. Coincidence?

Are we talking about the home of F1 Silverstone that wad redesigned eight years ago for... motorcycles?
Making the spectacle exciting on any track would be a good start.

dr-baker wrote:

Pacific 777 wrote:FOM Sends warning to historical circuits.

http://espn.com/f1/story/_/id/25205811/ ... c-circuits

Well. Try an F1 season without Silverstone and Monza, and see what happens. Hopefully the fans desert F1 in droves.

1980. Brands Hatch and Imola...

Well played. But this time we are looking at a scenario where FOM is not even looking at the U.K. or Italy (or San Marino if you will) as a whole. Chase Carey said that Asia is to become the driving force of the world in the future, and while I understand about "fishing where the fish are" financially, and expanding the sport, you also have to be wary that you don't alienate your traditional fanbase, otherwise you damage your prospects in the long run.

Pacific 777 wrote:Well played. But this time we are looking at a scenario where FOM is not even looking at the U.K. or Italy.

That's not what Bratches is saying though. Getting rid of either the British or Italian Grand Prix is a stupid idea and Liberty know that.

The more likely scenario is that they're posturing for a better deal from Silverstone and Monza. They're not seriously going to drop Britain and Italy from the calendar; at worst we're looking at the Italian GP moving to Imola/Mugello, while the British GP stays at Silverstone because there's honestly no other feasible venue in the short term.

Seriously, Silverstone's been "under threat" for something like twenty years now, with the speculation only dying down around the time they signed their 17-year hosting deal. Speculation over Monza's future has been an annual tradition for a while now, too. In both cases, it was never "Italy/Britain could be dropped from the calendar", it was "British GP could move to Brands Hatch/Italian GP could move to Mugello or Imola".

Simtek wrote:

Pacific 777 wrote:Well played. But this time we are looking at a scenario where FOM is not even looking at the U.K. or Italy.

That's not what Bratches is saying though. Getting rid of either the British or Italian Grand Prix is a stupid idea and Liberty know that.

The more likely scenario is that they're posturing for a better deal from Silverstone and Monza. They're not seriously going to drop Britain and Italy from the calendar; at worst we're looking at the Italian GP moving to Imola/Mugello, while the British GP stays at Silverstone because there's honestly no other feasible venue in the short term.

Seriously, Silverstone's been "under threat" for something like twenty years now, with the speculation only dying down around the time they signed their 17-year hosting deal. Speculation over Monza's future has been an annual tradition for a while now, too. In both cases, it was never "Italy/Britain could be dropped from the calendar", it was "British GP could move to Brands Hatch/Italian GP could move to Mugello or Imola".

Only tangentially related, but... I've seen footage of F1 cars testing at Mugello and I have to admit they look gorgeous, yet I'd have some concerns about racing there. Especially with current F1 cars, a hypothetical race at Mugello may turn out to be a main straight DRS-fest. What would you guys think?

novitopoli wrote:Only tangentially related, but... I've seen footage of F1 cars testing at Mugello and I have to admit they look gorgeous, yet I'd have some concerns about racing there. Especially with current F1 cars, a hypothetical race at Mugello may turn out to be a main straight DRS-fest. What would you guys think?

I tend to agree - I've seen some great racing around Mugello, it's a nice track , but I think current F1 cars would struggle to pass anywhere apart from the straight. And it would be follow-my-leader single file all the way round the rest of the track .
So it would just be easy-DRS passing as appropriate ( if you got close) and a race decided on tyre performance, strategy stops and downforce ..
In pure track terms- whilst Monza hasnt got many corners, it does have 2 real hard-stop tight ,slow, chicanes after long flat out bits ..and one leads to the other, so there's a traction differential to help you to catch the guy/girl ahead. But Mugello is more interesting in a way

yannicksamlad wrote:

novitopoli wrote:Only tangentially related, but... I've seen footage of F1 cars testing at Mugello and I have to admit they look gorgeous, yet I'd have some concerns about racing there. Especially with current F1 cars, a hypothetical race at Mugello may turn out to be a main straight DRS-fest. What would you guys think?

I tend to agree - I've seen some great racing around Mugello, it's a nice track , but I think current F1 cars would struggle to pass anywhere apart from the straight. And it would be follow-my-leader single file all the way round the rest of the track .
So it would just be easy-DRS passing as appropriate ( if you got close) and a race decided on tyre performance, strategy stops and downforce ..
In pure track terms- whilst Monza hasnt got many corners, it does have 2 real hard-stop tight ,slow, chicanes after long flat out bits ..and one leads to the other, so there's a traction differential to help you to catch the guy/girl ahead. But Mugello is more interesting in a way

I would agree with you there - with a faster single seater car, most of the braking zones for most corners would be too short for another driver to have much of a chance of overtaking, whilst the high speed nature of a number of the corners does narrow the effective width of the racing line. That would mean that the first corner is probably the one corner where there would be a lengthy enough braking zone to outbrake somebody, but the sheer length of the straight means that DRS would probably be so dominant that the trailing driver might well be past the leading one long before the braking zone anyway.

I did a quick trace of the Hanoi circuit to see if there would be any elevation changes: http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7323658

Looks like it's roughly between 5 and 12 metres above sea level, so an elevation change of about 7 metres then. About the same as Shanghai, which is pretty flat but not completely flat. Could be worse, but nothing spectacular.

The abbreviation of the Formula One Promoters Association, FOPA, sounds very much like it would be appreciated by the fans of f1rejects dot com because it sounds like fauxpas.

Finally, there is some entity to cheer for again in F1. And guess what, Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez and Sotchi have already come out and confirmed they do not side with FOPA, which is currently led by the promoter from Silverstone. Apparently, Liberty Media's graciousness towards a possible new race in Miami did not sit well with those who are now members of FOPA. And for the longest time, the now seemingly retired Bernie did all he could to prevent a FOPA from happening.

Might there be FOPA non-championship races happening in the future? Not so fast, this is not a "FOM/FOPA war" yet.
Here's hoping FOPA is also going to contribute positively to the safety of the sport, not only as far as the on-track action is concerned, but regarding crowd management, too.

Breaking news - the Brazilian GP is apparently moving to Rio in 2020.

I'd be surprised if they can build an FIA-approved circuit in a couple of month. I wonder if this is more a case of Bolsonaro being (typically) a complete nutjob and trying to shore up populist support by naming yet another circuit after the country's fallen son...

As much as I like Interlagos, the place is falling to pieces and the security is pretty much non-existent.

East Londoner wrote:As much as I like Interlagos, the place is falling to pieces and the security is pretty much non-existent.

Rio's no better...

East Londoner wrote:Breaking news - the Brazilian GP is apparently moving to Rio in 2020.

I'd be surprised if they can build an FIA-approved circuit in a couple of month. I wonder if this is more a case of Bolsonaro being (typically) a complete nutjob and trying to shore up populist support by naming yet another circuit after the country's fallen son...

As much as I like Interlagos, the place is falling to pieces and the security is pretty much non-existent.

Not only does a six to seven month construction programme sound optimistic, it sounds as if a lot of people are rather sceptical of his claims that the whole project will be underwritten by private investors given the state of Rio, and indeed the Brazilian economy as a whole, is experiencing considerable difficulty - the unemployment rate is over 12% in Rio, and the latest economic figures suggest the Brazilian economy is beginning to stall again. Furthermore, Rio has been struggling to sell off the ex-Olympic facilities in the Deodoro district, again raising the question of which private investor is going to be prepared to build an all-new track right there.

Similarly, it's not that long since the Mayor of Rio was claiming that they'd secured a deal for IndyCar to race in Rio in 2020, only for IndyCar to state that the announcement was premature and that they'd only expressed an interest in racing in Rio. Simtek is also right to note that, whilst security has been a major issue for Interlagos, Rio is not exactly much safer either, especially around Deodoro (which has long been a poverty stricken area).

Time will tell whether this comes to anything, but I have to agree that the claims sound rather far fetched.

I understand as well that, regardless of whether or not the Rio move is even feasible, Interlagos has a contract to hold the race until 2020 anyway.

And while we're on the thread topic, it now appears that two races will be dropped ahead of next year, presumably to make way for Hanoi and Zandvoort. Spain already looks to be one of them, and I've a feeling Mexico will be the other.

Simtek wrote:
And while we're on the thread topic, it now appears that two races will be dropped ahead of next year, presumably to make way for Hanoi and Zandvoort. Spain already looks to be one of them, and I've a feeling Mexico will be the other.

Barcelona and Interlagos?

Simtek wrote:I understand as well that, regardless of whether or not the Rio move is even feasible, Interlagos has a contract to hold the race until 2020 anyway.

And while we're on the thread topic, it now appears that two races will be dropped ahead of next year, presumably to make way for Hanoi and Zandvoort. Spain already looks to be one of them, and I've a feeling Mexico will be the other.

There seems to be some confusion over what exactly is happening with Interlagos - it is true that Interlagos have stated their contract runs into 2020, and some reports state that they would not switch to Rio until 2021, but others have interpreted Bolsonaro's statement as indicating the race will be in 2020 instead i.e. that F1 will find a way out of their contract with Interlagos.

Then again, it seems that the governor of Sao Paolo has called Bolsonaro's statement into question and asking where the money is supposed to be coming from to fund the circuit, so it might be that the arguments over whether it is 2020 or 2021 turn out to be irrelevant.

dr-baker wrote:

Simtek wrote:
And while we're on the thread topic, it now appears that two races will be dropped ahead of next year, presumably to make way for Hanoi and Zandvoort. Spain already looks to be one of them, and I've a feeling Mexico will be the other.

Barcelona and Interlagos?

With Monza having recently signed a new contract extension, that leaves four circuits whose contracts are about to expire: Silverstone, Hockenheim, Mexico and Barcelona.

If, as expected, Barcelona falls off the calendar, we're left with Silverstone, Hockenheim and Mexico. The expectation seems to be that Silverstone will eventually sign a contract extension, leaving Hockenheim and Mexico - both of which seem to be vulnerable right now.

Whilst, in recent years, Hockenheim has been able to capitalise on Verstappen's popularity, a Dutch Grand Prix would erode that support base significantly. Hockenheim has sought to split the costs with another venue for several years now, but right now they seem to be struggling to find another circuit to pair up with.

Mexico also looks vulnerable, with Obrador having questioned the value of the race in the past - whilst Perez seems to be optimistic a solution will be found, I am less optimistic given that there are other countries bidding for a race (having secured the Dakar Rally, there is talk that Saudi Arabia is now thinking of making a bid for an F1 race).

Personally, I don't think it's entirely out of the question that we could see both Hockenheim and Mexico drop off the calendar in 2020 as well.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/rio-de-ja ... -revealed/

The proposed layout for the Rio de Janeiro track. Looks a bit like the Red Bull Ring and Buenos Aires, with a bit of Estoril and Barcelona thrown in.

And to clarify, it looks like Interlagos will indeed stay until 2020 at least, with Rio probably taking over in 2021. Silly question, but why is this happening? Interlagos is a fantastic race track.

Rob Dylan wrote:And to clarify, it looks like Interlagos will indeed stay until 2020 at least, with Rio probably taking over in 2021. Silly question, but why is this happening? Interlagos is a fantastic race track.

Probably because Rio has more $$$.

Gertrand Bachot wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:And to clarify, it looks like Interlagos will indeed stay until 2020 at least, with Rio probably taking over in 2021. Silly question, but why is this happening? Interlagos is a fantastic race track.

Probably because Rio has more $$$.

It is a good track but the facilities are awful. Security is also always a concern.

Faustus wrote:

Gertrand Bachot wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:And to clarify, it looks like Interlagos will indeed stay until 2020 at least, with Rio probably taking over in 2021. Silly question, but why is this happening? Interlagos is a fantastic race track.

Probably because Rio has more $$$.

It is a good track but the facilities are awful. Security is also always a concern.

Security has indeed been an issue for Interlagos in recent years, and up until recently some of the attacks on the people going there were getting more brazen and more frequent (I think that a new convoy system organised by the police has reduced that over the past year or so).

That said, as I understand it the proposed area for the circuit - the Deodoro district of Rio - has also suffered from similar issues (it was redeveloped for the Olympics, but the local economy has been in dire straights since then), so it might not be much safer there either.

There are some wondering if there is an element of party politics in the way that Bolsonaro has pushed this through - the state of Rio is his main power base, given that was where his political career started and grew, so that might also be another factor in his decision making.

It would be a shame in that case if Interlagos were to be dropped simply for a politician giving benefits to his own fanbase. But I guess that would be very F1

The BBC a reporting that a new multi-year deal to keep the British GP at Silverstone is believed to have been agreed in the past week, expected to be announced at a news conference later today :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48933290

I guess we'll find out soon if this turns out to be correct!

EDIT : New 5 year deal agreed. Got to be good news surely? Link updated.

GB GP at Silverstone - I think its the best attended GP weekend of the year ( at least on average of past few years?) , so it's good news. It would be fairly damning if F1 couldnt work out a way to continue the event given the amount of money coming from tickets, TV etc .

If Silverstone had stopped it'd be a bit like if Wimbledon closed the Centre Court and said it was uneconomic to use such an expensive arena despite nearly all seats being sold .....

I remember hearing about the ludicrous clause they had in place a year ago, where the cost for the circuit to host the Grand Prix would rise incrementally by 5% every single year that they hosted. Whatever deal they have in place until 2024 - if it's better than that, it's a step in the right direction.

So, what track will get the boot when F1 races around Miami's Hard Rock Stadium?

Let's check the reject potential of this circuit.
Built around a car park: did somebody say "Caesar's Palace"?
A race in Florida in May when it'll be roasting hot: did somebody say "Dallas 1984"?
Or, maybe, if they're really unlucky, it'll be disgustingly humid as well and more like Sepang.

dinizintheoven wrote:So, what track will get the boot when F1 races around Miami's Hard Rock Stadium?

Let's check the reject potential of this circuit.
Built around a car park: did somebody say "Caesar's Palace"?
A race in Florida in May when it'll be roasting hot: did somebody say "Dallas 1984"?
Or, maybe, if they're really unlucky, it'll be disgustingly humid as well and more like Sepang.

Based on the track it is already more complex and spread out than Ceasar's Palace. I'm sure the track promoters can replace the astroturf with tarmac for the race weekend in short order.

It looks like Zandvoort have decided to make some changes to the track, adding banking to two corners and changing the line through one of them:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/zandvoort-final-corner-banking-indianapolis/4597579/

By the way, Motorsport missed a change with their other article's headline. It was "Zandvoort pins hopes on banked corner to boost F1 overtaking"---they ought to have said Zandvoort were BANKING their hopes on the banked corner, obviously.

Moderators, please lock this thread if this is deemed to be premature and this opening topic of the race could be better discussed elsewhere...

Autosport have said that Zandvoort's architects are deliberately withholding data from teams to reduce levels of preparedness ahead of the race. Thing is, how much data can be held back? Teams will know circuit length, corner length and radii (plus camber levels!). They will know fairly well the type of tarmac used over much of the track (they are not resurfacing the whole track are they? Only reprofiling a few corners?). Weather forecasts and typical temperatures are not state secrets, and anyway, northern European weather is typically fickle. My question is: how much data can be withheld? How much can the teams catch up with missing data by the end of Friday free practice sessions (particularly Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari)? How unpredictable will this race really be when we get there?

dr-baker wrote:Moderators, please lock this thread if this is deemed to be premature and this opening topic of the race could be better discussed elsewhere...

Merged with our track topic, as I think this is better discussed here.

Nuppiz wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Moderators, please lock this thread if this is deemed to be premature and this opening topic of the race could be better discussed elsewhere...

Merged with our track topic, as I think this is better discussed here.

Ok, no problem!

dr-baker wrote:Moderators, please lock this thread if this is deemed to be premature and this opening topic of the race could be better discussed elsewhere...

Autosport have said that Zandvoort's architects are deliberately withholding data from teams to reduce levels of preparedness ahead of the race. Thing is, how much data can be held back? Teams will know circuit length, corner length and radii (plus camber levels!). They will know fairly well the type of tarmac used over much of the track (they are not resurfacing the whole track are they? Only reprofiling a few corners?). Weather forecasts and typical temperatures are not state secrets, and anyway, northern European weather is typically fickle. My question is: how much data can be withheld? How much can the teams catch up with missing data by the end of Friday free practice sessions (particularly Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari)? How unpredictable will this race really be when we get there?

With regards to your question, the works have been fairly substantial in some areas - some of the corners, such as Hugenholtzbocht, were ripped up completely, raised with new retaining walls and then resurfaced.

For some idea of the works, here is footage from somebody flying a drone over the circuit on the 1st January: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOeWgX1glU

Here is footage from a more recent drone flight on the 24th January: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPt-mht9_Go

I'd agree that, in practise, it probably isn't going to have the impact the designers are hoping - if anything, it might even increase the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field given that they are the ones with the most resources to throw at refining their set ups.

Thank you mario for the links to these videos. The new Zandvoort is looking much better than I expected. They have managed to find additional paddock space between the exit of Hugenholtz to the left and the revised chicane on the right. Also, banking Luyendyk corner feels like another tribute to the Indy 500 champion that goes beyond just naming a corner after him, as it directly references his achievements by re-shaping the corner.
Zandvoort may well become the best of all the renovated classic F1 circuits once this process is finished. If it is suitable to produce good racing in F1 I don't know, but for all other series, this track is going to be a blast for sure.

A map of the new Saudi Arabia track has been revealed :



Fast and flowing, etc, etc. Anyone else getting Valencia vibes? Although I can see 3 possible overtaking spots so I guess that's 3 more than Valenica had!?!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/56420088

From the on-track footage it looks super skinny. So skinny in fact that I'm not really sure where they're supposed to overtake at all! It reminds me of a Formula E circuit.