Run-off areas: yes or no?

[lostpin]

It's a a bit off-topic from the latest going-ons in F1, but I would like to comment on a trend that seems to sweep F1 in the last couple of seasons. I'm talking about what used to be a sand or grass covered areas around the track that these days are more often getting covered in asphalt. Is this thing really necessary? Should a driver that misses the whole chicane or curve really be eligible to continue racing without any consequences to his car? The F1 field is pretty average these days, but I think that with these "parking lots" F1 is made to look even more rookie-friendly than it currently is... it's just making more difficult to separate the reject material from the worthy ones... State your opinion please...

[CarlosFerreira]

I'm against the asphalt run-off areas, although I do understand the car safety issues. However, because I am a big fan of motorcycle racing, I defend sand run-off areas, which what riders need when they suddenly run out of road, talent and ideas. Grass run-off are dangerous for everyone (if there's moist in the grass, you usually accelerate as you hit it).

What we need is good-old sandpits. Riders fall onto something marginally smoother, cars get bogged-down, so the driver pays a penalty, and we can enjoy ourselves listening to Charlie Cox going "There" He's parked it in the kitty litter!".

[Many Blue Flags]

I'm in two minds about this. On one, I do think that run-off is a bit cheaty, especially at Fuji. However, if a driver is worried about losing his entire race due to a lone wheel placed off the course while overtaking, we're likely to see much less of it. Run-off gives drivers the chance to be braver, the Kovalainen-Trulli battle at Magny-Cours last year would simply have been Kovalainen trying to force Trulli into a mistake rather than actually attacking.

I'm not for grass or sand (or snow even), but not tarmac like the track. Lets' have like Paul Ricard - passable stuff that slows you down or wounds your tires. So you can't gain an advantage by being an idiot off track, but an honest mistake doesn't drop you completely out. Everyone's happy.

[dr-baker]

Or how about the tarmac stuff for the first few metres/yards off-track then kitty-litter beyound that?

[lostpin]

Well, interesting opinions, I agree that sandboxes are safer for bikers to surf their buts to a stop, but I'm not quite sure that asphalt run-offs makes overtaking any better. I think many people will agree that there is less overtaking in the last couple of seasons, but it has more to do with aerodynamics and grip than run-off areas. I remember videos from the 80's when they used to have quite tall, concrete kerbs. Just touching something like that will send you flying around in circles. Having these "parking lots" today make me appreciate drivers from the golder era even more. And let's think about aestethics for a while, the track looks much more natural and pleasing with sand and grass around it... Spa was quite a beautiful track, and just look at what they're doing with it right now...

[lostpin]

Or how about the tarmac stuff for the first few metres/yards off-track then kitty-litter beyound that?

OK, but why should the supposedly world's best drivers need this freedom?

[GinShaiman]

Certain contentious moves in recent history would never have happened without asphalt run offs. Gung-ho drivers like Hamilton don't always play fair and abuse their presence knowing they can safely continue if the other driver doesn't give way. The real skill is overtaking whilst staying on the track and not colliding with your rivals.
The blame partly lies with the cars though, if overtaking was easier desperate lunges wouldn't be so necessary.

[Pedro_Diniz]

Totally against them, perhaps they could elaborate on the Bahrain idea of putting a glue-like substance down to stop sand getting onto the track.... except make it even more adhesive and we'll see F1 cars glued to the run-off

[lostpin]

Gung-ho drivers like Hamilton don't always play fair and abuse their presence knowing they can safely continue if the other driver doesn't give way.

GinShaiman, you're absolutely right, I was just going to write a post that when I think of run-off areas, the first word that comes to my mind is: Hamilton.

[CarlosFerreira]

Gung-ho drivers like Hamilton don't always play fair and abuse their presence knowing they can safely continue if the other driver doesn't give way.

GinShaiman, you're absolutely right, I was just going to write a post that when I think of run-off areas, the first word that comes to my mind is: Hamilton.

For all the complaining about no overtaking, when a Gung-Ho driver does come along, everyone seems to object. Hmmm...

[Irisado]

I don't like these tarmac run off areas. I understand the safety implications, but the number of gravel traps that they have replaced at some circuits just beggars belief, especially at these new tracks, where the run off areas are so enormous that there is no danger of hitting anything, so gravel traps would have punished driver errors more forcefully.

The finishing rate in Formula 1 is currently ridiculously too high, in my view, because of excessive reliability anyway, so more gravel traps to catch the drivers out are needed. I'm fed up of these get out of jail free tarmac run off areas, and they really need to have a re-think about them in my opinion.

[Nuppiz]

Say, maybe a car-width of extra tarmac to allow that "Gung-Ho" overtaking, but the rest just gravel. I'm fed up with today's super reliability!

[lostpin]

Gung-ho drivers like Hamilton don't always play fair and abuse their presence knowing they can safely continue if the other driver doesn't give way.

GinShaiman, you're absolutely right, I was just going to write a post that when I think of run-off areas, the first word that comes to my mind is: Hamilton.

For all the complaining about no overtaking, when a Gung-Ho driver does come along, everyone seems to object. Hmmm...

Well Hamilton really had his fair share of spin-offs and off-track moments during his F1 career (saved by the tarmac). Sometimes it makes me wonder how would the 2007 championship fare if it wasn't for the gravel traps...

[watka]

With all these run-off areas they may as well use the Top Gear Test Track for a GP, that's just an airfield with corners marked out by tape.

[dresda]

Hmmm. I prefer tarmac because then a driver who safely negotiates the runoff area doesn't drag a whole lot of gravel back onto the track with him.

And I recall commentary once about how the gravel traps that suited an F1 car were unsuitable for other classes of autoracing because the cars would stop dead as soon as they left the track rather than surfing through the gravel like an F1 car.

I also think its better for the driver who is hurtling towards a wall to have the option to apply brakes on a surface where they'll do some good!

How about a rule that states that any driver who by his own fault ends up on the run-off area has to wait until the entire field has passed by.

However, I really like the flypaper idea, have it stickier the further they get off the track until the car just comes to a halt. Might make it a bit hard for the driver to get out of the way however. Oh, I know - molasses. The driver would have to be removed by crane.

I was going to mention though that the Cleveland Champcar race (on the Cleveland Municipal Airfield) was always one of the highlights of the year with drivers going 10 abreast into the first corner and some really daring passing manouvers. Oh, those were the days.

[Bort]

Bring back concrete walls on the outside of EVERY corner.

Failing that, major drop-offs from the road into ditches filled with trees and other hazards, hedges and hay-bales in the spirit of 1950s/1960s racing.


Sure, we will get plenty of deaths, but the racing will be fairer.

[Jordan]

Well, normally i'd support tarmac run off, unless they are willing to develop some sort of impact softening barrier a la the SAFER barriers at many US tracks, but I can't help but wonder how much better (or worse) off Massa might have been had there been a gravel trap there rather than the tarmac stuff

[CarlosFerreira]

Bring back concrete walls on the outside of EVERY corner.

Failing that, major drop-offs from the road into ditches filled with trees and other hazards, hedges and hay-bales in the spirit of 1950s/1960s racing.


Sure, we will get plenty of deaths, but the racing will be fairer.

At the very least, let's keep the tarmac areas, but put nails in them. That'll teach'em to be careful!

[SuperAguri]

I do believe there should be slight run off areas, so tiny mistakes don't get punished but massive offs should go straight to gravel and if you get beached then tough luck. Fed up of seeing the Ferraris go off then go straight back on...

[DonTirri]

Fed up of seeing the Ferraris go off then go straight back on...

I would correct you by saying "McLarens" but I then remembered that they are allowed to continue even if beached

[Debaser]

On the old Cleveland CART track, that was the simplest circuit in the world. Almost all tarmac, long straights, heavy braking zones and massive width. It made for fantastic races, I'd love an F1 race there. But mostly I'm against all tarmac run-off, cars just run wide knowing they can and they don't slow down cars in a crash, though gravel does flip a car so its difficult to judge what's more effective. But tarmac doesn't punish mistakes and doesn't really improve racing as its so dusty offline.

[howardmb]

Bring back concrete walls on the outside of EVERY corner.

Failing that, major drop-offs from the road into ditches filled with trees and other hazards, hedges and hay-bales in the spirit of 1950s/1960s racing.

I like the hay-bales idea if only to help add some 'sparkle to the show. When a driver goes off, I like to see fireworks; some sort of indication a driver made a boo-boo. There should be more pizazz. When all you have is a large parking lot, there's nothing to see or hear except for the commentators remarks. Once off, the offending driver sheepishly drives back on as if nothing has happened. Come on!...Give me a real show.

[Captain Hammer]

Bring back concrete walls on the outside of EVERY corner.

Failing that, major drop-offs from the road into ditches filled with trees and other hazards, hedges and hay-bales in the spirit of 1950s/1960s racing.

And streakers. Don't forget the streakers.

[Bort]

And streakers. Don't forget the streakers.

F1 streakers just can't compare to those of other sports.

SFW but linked just in case...
http://www.totalprosports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/london-female-streaker-at-the-madejski-stadium.jpg

[Cynon]

Sand Pits with Concrete walls outside every corner. You go too fast, you smash into the wall.

The problem with no passing in F1 is the aerodynamics. With, say, the aerodynamic rules of GP2, Barcelona might not be so damn boring! If you have cars that are designed to not be passed.... well, what do you think you're going to get?

For all the complaining about no overtaking, when a Gung-Ho driver does come along, everyone seems to object. Hmmm...

I would probably like Hamilton if he wasn't such a whiner.

[GinShaiman]

Gung-ho drivers of the past a la Arnoux and Villeneuve usually kept it between the white lines.
Maybe if they sort out the aerodynamics to make overtaking easier we'll see an end to desperate lunges onto the no-consequence run-off areas.

[Waris]

And streakers. Don't forget the streakers.

F1 streakers just can't compare to those of other sports.

SFW but linked just in case...
http://www.totalprosports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/london-female-streaker-at-the-madejski-stadium.jpg

For some reason, when I see that picture, I remember Cristiano da Matta was leading that race at some point. (Shouldn't he get a profile, btw, or is he ineligible?)

[Bleu]

da Matta is ineligible having got three 6th places: Spain 03, Germany 03 and Monaco 04

[Nuppiz]

For some reason, when I see that picture, I remember Cristiano da Matta was leading that race at some point. (Shouldn't he get a profile, btw, or is he ineligible?)

Yes, he did lead that race for a while, thanks to a one-stop strategy. In the end he finished 6th in that race, and with two other 6th places he escapes rejectdom with the smallest margin possible.

[DemocalypseNow]

What is the criteria for a Reject anyway? Always wondered that...

[Irisado]

What is the criteria for a Reject anyway? Always wondered that...

If you take a look at the F1 rejects website, then the answer will be revealed to you .

[thehemogoblin]

What is the criteria for a Reject anyway? Always wondered that...

Two points or less with the old system.

[Ferrim]

Yes, he did lead that race for a while, thanks to a one-stop strategy. In the end he finished 6th in that race, and with two other 6th places he escapes rejectdom with the smallest margin possible.

Not quite. He was 3-stopping, not 1-stopping.

The thing was, IIRC, that there was a first SC period when Coulthard lost a part of his car which is placed around the cockpit, to protect the drivers' head (don't know what its name is). Then the Toyotas decided to pit and rejoined at the back of the pack.

When the mad priest invaded the track, a few laps later, the SC came out again, and everyone bar the Toyotas pitted. That's how they moved into the lead.

What is the criteria for a Reject anyway? Always wondered that...

It's on top of the drivers index page...

[Nin13]

Frankly speaking, I do not like to see so many run off areas and drivers cutting chicane too often. Now a days, drivers take maximum risk without any fear. Because they know if they make any mistake there will be no serious punishment, i.e. they know, they have nothing to lose.

In olden days, there were no run off areas, this meant only drivers who had courage and skill to overtake would attempt an overtaking move. We must all know that drivers like Fangio, Senna, Prost and Schumcher raced on real tracks and not on artificial tracks like we have now. There were no run offs then, and any mistake would mean they ended up in gravel or grass or wall.

I think FIA should make changes to all modern tracks and run off to be replaced with gravel/grass. That is the only way to know who is the better driver.

(Simple example- Last year when it started to rain at Spa 2 laps before finish as Kimi and Lewis approached Pouhon both of them ran wide and took run off area for their aid, in olden days there was gravel there. Any such mistake then would have meant they were out of race, at that very moment.)

I too completely hate the idea of run off areas on track.

[Irisado]

Valencia is a prime example, in my opinion, of why all this tarmac doesn't work.

If there were gravel in some of those huge run off areas, drivers would actually be punished if they made errors, whereas at the moment, they can just get out of jail free, which isn't right in my view. Obviously, at Valencia could solve this issue by making the circuit more Monaco-esque, but this would probably make overtaking even more difficult than it is currently, so it not workable.