2011 Monaco Grand Prix Discussion Thread

[mario]

With the first practise session almost upon us, I guess it's time for the discussion thread to be opened, and there are already a few things to talk about here.

Top of the show is the fact that this is the first time we will see the super soft tyres being used in a full race situation, and it seems that both the teams and drivers are unsure what effect this will have on strategy. After all, the last time that the super soft tyres were available were during winter testing at Barcelona, where the ambient and track conditions were very different - but, even so, some drivers were not entirely happy about the behaviour of the super soft tyres. To quote from Button when asked what impact this will have on strategy:

"I really haven't got a clue," said Button during Wednesday's press conference. "We have not run the super soft for a long time, and we haven't run it with the existing tyres. But sure there will be a huge amount of degradation on the super soft.

"Strategy wise it is very difficult to work out what to do. To pick up the right strategy and get into race situation. Here it is going to be up in the air, you really have to think on your feet in the race, whether there is degradation or not."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91703

As he has picked up on, though, the main question is how quickly the tyres will wear out. Paul Hembrey, from Pirelli, has said that the super soft tyre is an especially aggressive design - the super soft is already being compared to the old fashioned qualifying special tyres of previous years, as it does seem to have many of the same characteristics. Certainly, the drivers, as are Pirelli, said that the tyre really were only good for one quick lap - and Pirelli suggest that the super soft might do ten laps at most (probably less than that in race trim). http://www.racecar-engineering.com/even ... nd-prix-2/

Added to this is the complication that emergency repairs have had to be carried out across the racing line at St. Devote, right in the heart of the braking zone, following damage to the road caused by a truck breaking down and catching fire. According to Di Resta, who was filming a track guide with the BBC ahead of the race and saw the fire break out, the authorities have done a very good job to repair the track given the time constraints they have faced.
Nevertheless, he and other drivers are concerned that the track could begin to break up - as happened In Canada a few years ago - given that the cars will be pounding round barely 36 hours after the tarmac was laid (which potentially might not have fully cured by then). On top of that, some, like Rosberg, are a little worried that the track surface might be especially slippery in that region as the oily residue in the tarmac is extruded over the next few days. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91711

So, it sounds as if we have the ingredients for a potentially chaotic race - perhaps the outside chance of one of the new teams sneaking into the points via strategy, a safety car or just good old fashioned attrition?

[FullMetalJack]

I hate that Monaco practice is tomorrow, I've got Friday off for once, and the practice ain't on that day.

[DOSBoot]

I think it will be another cakewalk for "The Finger". But I guess we'll see what happens.

[DanielPT]

Yesterday I saw Autosport was with the Mercedes "We have to improve" story. For a second I thought I was back in 2010...

[F1000X]

As he has picked up on, though, the main question is how quickly the tyres will wear out. Paul Hembrey, from Pirelli, has said that the super soft tyre is an especially aggressive design - the super soft is already being compared to the old fashioned qualifying special tyres of previous years, as it does seem to have many of the same characteristics. Certainly, the drivers, as are Pirelli, said that the tyre really were only good for one quick lap - and Pirelli suggest that the super soft might do ten laps at most (probably less than that in race trim). http://www.racecar-engineering.com/even ... nd-prix-2/

Do you think there is a chance we will see 5 stop strategies? (As ludicrous as that sounds.)

[Nessafox]

As he has picked up on, though, the main question is how quickly the tyres will wear out. Paul Hembrey, from Pirelli, has said that the super soft tyre is an especially aggressive design - the super soft is already being compared to the old fashioned qualifying special tyres of previous years, as it does seem to have many of the same characteristics. Certainly, the drivers, as are Pirelli, said that the tyre really were only good for one quick lap - and Pirelli suggest that the super soft might do ten laps at most (probably less than that in race trim). http://www.racecar-engineering.com/even ... nd-prix-2/

Do you think there is a chance we will see 5 stop strategies? (As ludicrous as that sounds.)

well i think at least someone will try it.

this however could be sauber's chance for a good result, with their gentleness on tyres

[GroupLotusRenault]

With that fire on the first corner this could mix up the race this weekend (and if it rains then welll.......)

[mario]

As he has picked up on, though, the main question is how quickly the tyres will wear out. Paul Hembrey, from Pirelli, has said that the super soft tyre is an especially aggressive design - the super soft is already being compared to the old fashioned qualifying special tyres of previous years, as it does seem to have many of the same characteristics. Certainly, the drivers, as are Pirelli, said that the tyre really were only good for one quick lap - and Pirelli suggest that the super soft might do ten laps at most (probably less than that in race trim). http://www.racecar-engineering.com/even ... nd-prix-2/

Do you think there is a chance we will see 5 stop strategies? (As ludicrous as that sounds.)

well i think at least someone will try it.

this however could be sauber's chance for a good result, with their gentleness on tyres

It's possible - the ability to jump somebody by undercutting them might be especially potent here - but there is the problems that it pushes you right to the limit on tyres (remember that they have just six sets available for Saturday and Sunday, and a five stop strategy would use up all of your sets). On top of that, traffic could well prove to be a major problem - getting stuck behind a mid field or back marker at the wrong time could cost you a lot of time, and positions, could well wreck your strategy.

Interestingly, Kravitz is currently talking to Whitmarsh, and the topic of the engine maps has come up, predictably. It seems that HRT are putting a fair bit of effort into getting them banned - Whitmarsh revealed that HRT have already written twice to the FIA between Spain and today, putting forward their case.
So, will he protest? The indication is that Kolles might be waiting until after qualifying to make his protest - so far, no formal protest has been submitted (though, as pointed out, HRT have sent in supporting documentation).

[TomWazzleshaw]

They might have to dig up part of the front straight before the race. Apparently there's a leaking underground water pipe on the starting grid.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Webber's gearbox has decided to go on holiday.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Sorry for the spam but they just threw out the red flag thanks to the water on track.

[mario]

Webber's gearbox has decided to go on holiday.

Looks like he was stuck in 6th gear - and that is the end of his session. Looks like things are already not going his way...

They might have to dig up part of the front straight before the race. Apparently there's a leaking underground water pipe on the starting grid.

Well, they seem to have tried to shut off the water pipe (and it seems to have worked - the session was briefly stopped, and now restarted).

[TomWazzleshaw]

Go home, Tonio Liuzzi.

[sswishbone]

Liuzzi has just spun at the swimming pool and smahsed his front wing, yellow flags out. Also by my calculations I reckon qualifying time cut off should be around 1.23.5 so unlikely we'll have a failure to qualify

[TomWazzleshaw]

Liuzzi has just spun at the swimming pool and smahsed his front wing, yellow flags out. Also by my calculations I reckon qualifying time cut off should be around 1.23.5 so unlikely we'll have a failure to qualify

I think it'll be much closer to 1:20. They're still miles off last year's pole time.

[solarcold]

Even Andrea Moda qualified in Monaco - what do you expect from our present rejects.)

[sswishbone]

I see some teams using harder compound only really to save the super softs so it should be a little slower, but not by much

[TomWazzleshaw]

Schumacher in the wall. Karthikeyan joined him shortly afterwards

[TomWazzleshaw]

107% time. 1:21.982. Glock just makes it in and both Hispanias atleast a second outside it.

[dinizintheoven]

Schumacher in the wall. Karthikeyan joined him shortly afterwards

The onboard shot of that was brilliant. No, Michael, it's a right turn into Ste. Devote! The next shot did make it look like Narain might have hit him from behind, but the replay showed it was all Michael's own doing.

Zu Haus, Schumi!

[solarcold]

I really want to see the on-board of Karthikeyan while he was following Schumi. with team radio.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Liuzzi's accident.

[sswishbone]

If this practice director is as bad as this in the race you won't see sodding anything! I know rather than show the difference between option and prime tyre I'll show Liuzzi walking down the pitlane! Who the hell is this idiot!?

[S951]

yup agree with you there!

chandock awesome cometary as usual

[Benetton]

They might have to dig up part of the front straight before the race. Apparently there's a leaking underground water pipe on the starting grid.

And Bernie has not anything to do with this? This is his sneaky "artificial rain" plan coming into works.

[sswishbone]

Has Massa entered an international drifting contest or something?

[mario]

Has Massa entered an international drifting contest or something?

He was really ragged during some of his faster laps - impressive to watch, but costing him a lot of time (from being quickest in the first sector to being about seven tenths down). Still, when he does keep the rear in check, he has been turning in some very good lap times, and on the whole Ferrari are looking very strong this weekend. That said, when it comes to hanging the back end out, Glock was giving Massa a run for his money...

Anyway, Liuzzi has failed to make it out in FP2 - as the team were changing the suspension, they came across another problem related to the hydraulics system, so he spent the afternoon in the garage. Meanwhile, Petrov's also whacked the barriers like Liuzzi, and knocked off his front wing (although he also gave the armco a mighty whack with his rear tyre, which must have had the transmission designers wincing).

And it seems that the assessment that Pirelli and the teams gave before the race about the longevity of the tyres was misplaced - they seem to be holding up much better than expected, with the drop off in performance relatively low. Vettel, for example, managed a 20 lap stint on the super soft tyres, and his pace was reasonable (though there were a few slower laps during that stint due to traffic and yellow flags), and the talk now seems to be of a two stop race - even one stop races might be possible.

[Phoenix]

Alonso fastest in FP2...I hope he doesn't (or Massa, for that matter) wreck the car in FP3, Ferrari is looking very serious here.

[Ferrim]

I'm happy of how everything is going.

I mean, here in Spain the amount of comments about how disastrous is the Ferrari is starting to seriously annoy me. You know, the "Alonso can't win because the car is shitty" way of thinking. The idea is that if Almighty Alonso finishes one lap down it means the car is a piece of j*nk. The F150 may not be a world beater at the moment, but how is it a poor car when Alonso was nearly on the Red Bull pace at Turkey?

What the Ferrari lacks is downforce. It's lacked it since the 2009 big rule change and they don't seem to be able to make bigger progresses than Red Bull or McLaren. While McLaren seem to develop faster, their car is not as "sweet" as the Ferrari, and this is a trend that started in 2009 and continues now. The Ferrari is a good car: has good traction, looks easy to handle, is soft on its tyres... is basically a car as good or better than the Red Bull everywhere BUT in downforce. While the McLaren has a bigger potential but it's much harder to fully exploit it, and inconsistent: it can be the fastest car one day (last Sunday in Spain) and nowhere the next day (ie. Turkey).

Montmeló is one of the tracks where downforce is most important. Last year, Alonso qualified one second off pole -exactly like this year! He finished 2nd, but only because Vettel and Hamilton hit trouble, plus Button spent the evening in traffic; this year Vettel and Hamilton had no troubles at all and you can overtake other people. That plus Ferrari disastrous strategical thinking which meant Alonso had to spent over half the race on hards sealed it. Monaco has a lot of slow corners and a few relatively fast ones, great downforce is not so important and the Ferrari is close to the top or even at the top. Happened already in 2010, so not big news and nothing related to Ferrari's improvements to their car.

About pitstops, sorry but 5 stops weren't even on the cards. This is Monaco, and every year it surprises me again to see how narrow the track is. I guess that with new venues increasing all the time, I'm getting more used to see wide tracks than before. If you try to "undercut" too soon you'll hit traffic and you won't be able to do anything unless they let you through. Last year Alonso struggled a bit to pass Di Grassi, who was 4-5 seconds slower. Add to that the fact that Monaco is a slow track and the race distance is over 10% shorter than in other places, and you'll find out that they need quite a bit less fuel, which means less stress will be put on the tyres during the early laps of the race. A couple of years ago, Glock started on 100.8 kg of fuel which took him to lap 57; Fisichella did on 93 which meant a pitstop in lap 52; Heidfeld started on 80 kg and pitted after 42 laps. This means that less than 2 kg a lap are needed, and about 140-145 for a race distance.

Monaco is also a place where tyre degradation is very, very small, to the point some F1 engineers used to talk about "negative degradation", meaning that even accounting for the reduction on the fuel load, the cars were getting faster all the time without changing tyres because the track surface improves all the time. This has probably changed with the Pirellis, but these are public roads and even if the rubber-in effect is smaller, it should still be noticed. Therefore I expected similar conditions to Australia, another place where the tyres were holding well. Monaco will be hotter and the super-soft tyre will make things harder, but on the other hand the track is more gentle on the tyres, and the characteristics of the track (nearly impossible to pass) will make anything bigger than 2 stops a gamble. Some people at the back (possibly Lotus; they like to run less stops) will try to start on softs and make a change to the super-softs as late as possible in order to do a Pérez.

What I'm really worried about is Canada with these tyres...

[Phoenix]

I disagree - the Ferrari doesn't lack downforce at all. Last year only the Red Bull produced more downforce than Ferrari, and Ferrari's low was on the races where they were trying to make the F-duct and blown diffuser to work. And this car is no exception - it's just that they've been very conservative with its approach to this year's contender.

[Ed24]

Has Massa entered an international drifting contest or something?

Well, better to find the oversteer in practice than in qualifying!

It was pretty incredible to watch his saves though. You could say he's lucky, but he's made a habit of it, notably drifting through the gravel trap at the Parabolica last year to somehow avoid the wall.

[Ferrim]

I disagree - the Ferrari doesn't lack downforce at all. Last year only the Red Bull produced more downforce than Ferrari, and Ferrari's low was on the races where they were trying to make the F-duct and blown diffuser to work. And this car is no exception - it's just that they've been very conservative with its approach to this year's contender.

Call it conservative if you want (I think they are rather short of ideas). The fact that the Red Bull produces more downforce means Ferrari are lacking downforce, doesn't it?

[Phoenix]

I disagree - the Ferrari doesn't lack downforce at all. Last year only the Red Bull produced more downforce than Ferrari, and Ferrari's low was on the races where they were trying to make the F-duct and blown diffuser to work. And this car is no exception - it's just that they've been very conservative with its approach to this year's contender.

Call it conservative if you want (I think they are rather short of ideas). The fact that the Red Bull produces more downforce means Ferrari are lacking downforce, doesn't it?

You'd say the Ferrari F1-87/88 was bad? Or the BAR 06?

[Ferrim]

The whole point of my post was precisely that the Ferrari is not a bad car at all. I said textually: "The Ferrari is a good car: has good traction, looks easy to handle, is soft on its tyres... is basically a car as good or better than the Red Bull everywhere BUT in downforce."

[F1000X]

Could Ferrari's lack of downforce be down to the loss of the double decker diffuser, and/or an inferior blown diffuser system?

[mario]

The whole point of my post was precisely that the Ferrari is not a bad car at all. I said textually: "The Ferrari is a good car: has good traction, looks easy to handle, is soft on its tyres... is basically a car as good or better than the Red Bull everywhere BUT in downforce."

It's true that the F150th Italia does seem to have good mechanical grip, and the car definitely does seem to be relatively predictable close to the limit - I remember Hulkenberg commented on that. Regarding downforce, what seems to have happened is that Ferrari were making decent progress in the off season, but then decided to upgrade their wind tunnel from 50% to 60% as part of a large scale refitting program - and it seems that there were slight calibration problems at the 60% scale that meant that their subsequent upgrade packages were not performing quite as expected.

Now, Ferrari seem to have solved those through the use of Toyota's wind tunnel in Cologne to check their data (TMG are pretty active these days as a consultancy service to Formula 1, and seems to be much more successful as an external consultant than a works outfit). But, being somewhat behind their rivals, they are going to struggle to improve their car in terms of downforce performance, which in turn is hurting their qualifying performance (since they struggle to utilise the tyres fully over a single lap). Both Red Bull and McLaren have strong development centres, so out developing them will be a tall order - especially now with resources being ever more tightly controlled.

Interestingly, though, it seems that Ferrari do have a few modifications for this race above and beyond the usual ones for Monaco - in the second practise sessions, Ferrari brought out a new engine cover, with a Red Bull style central exit and consequentially tighter rear bodywork. http://www.formula1.com/wi/sutton/2011/d11mon833.jpg

Drifting further on, Toro Rosso seem to have a modified rear wing, which I guess can only be described as lightly corrugated (if you look closely at the rear wing elements, the curvature alters across the surface, making it look like it is rippling).
http://www.formula1.com/wi/0x0/sutton/2 ... on1024.jpg

And, unsurprisingly, Kolles has relented on his decision to protest, which seems in part because the FIA has accepted and responded to his requests for restricting the use of retarded ignition maps. However, that does not change his view on the matter - he is sticking by his original point, but now it looks like he will press his case with the Technical Working Group in their June 16th meeting.

[Collieafc]

Despite todays practice results, I agree with the suggestion of itll be another romp for Vettel - He will do his usual one run on the final Q3 to steal pole by 1/2 a second from the first non red bull car and disappear into the distance in the race

[mario]

Despite todays practice results, I agree with the suggestion of itll be another romp for Vettel - He will do his usual one run on the final Q3 to steal pole by 1/2 a second from the first non red bull car and disappear into the distance in the race

I doubt that it'll be by half a second, since the lap is so short in Monaco - in fact, looking at the long run data from FP2, Alonso was able to put in very similar lap times to Vettel, with Massa setting similar lap times, whilst the McLaren duo of Hamilton and Button were also in the mix there. As for Webber, well, time will tell what he can do - the lost running time today thanks to that gearbox failure was the last thing he needed, and does seem to have set him back.
I do think that Vettel might have more of a fight on his hands than in previous races this time around - Alonso is especially hungry for a win after the criticism he and the team faced after Spain, and Hamilton reckons that this is his best chance to win a race and knock Vettel's confidence back. Yes, he'll probably still be on pole, but this is probably one of the few venues where he might be caught out - particularly on strategy, where Red Bull have stumbled before (see China for Vettel and Spain for Webber).

[Ferrim]

BTW if the super-soft lasts longer than expected, it could be that everyone does two runs in Q3. Track position is more important here than in previous venues.

[ibsey]

I do think that Vettel might have more of a fight on his hands than in previous races this time around - Alonso is especially hungry for a win after the criticism he and the team faced after Spain, and Hamilton reckons that this is his best chance to win a race and knock Vettel's confidence back.

Indeed, rumor has it that Santander are not happy with Ferrari performances of late, resulting in some 'very sprited' discussions with the team during Spain. Also heard that if things do not improve soon for Ferrari, we could see a couple of other key personnel being moved around? So with this in mind, Ferrari have an extra incentive to do well this weekend.

The long run data from FP2, does indeed suggest the battle between Ferrari, Mclaren & RBR will be very close indeed this weekend. I also wouldn't rule out Mercedes yet (particularly Rosberg who tends to perform on street circuits like his old man...must be in the genes) to get in amongst them either. Although, having said that, from the FP2 data provided in this very useful website; http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Rosberg ,
together with the evidence we saw in the last couple of races, Mercedes race pace has been disappointing, in comparsion to their qualifying pace. Nevertheless if they can qualify high, maybe they can do something on strategy.

Also bear in mind, Monaco is a special track, where the driver can make the difference (moreso than anywhere else). As Fernando Alonso said after FP2;
"In Monaco it's mainly a question of having a good feel for the car: the more the driver has, the harder he can push, lap after lap."

So with this in mind, I have been paying particular attention today to see which car/driver combo appears to be most at ease with one another.

Ferrari - Alonso & Massa both appear to be pushing closer to their limit & taking more risks than the other front runners. The Ferrari in the hands of Alonso appears to be perfectly balanced (i.e. touch of understeer which equals better stability over bumps & kerbs, whislt protecting the rear tyres in traction areas). Also the Ferrari appears to be good under braking in particularly the big stop into the chicane after the tunnel (resulting in Alonso being fastest in S2). Particular interesting was Alonso was still pumping in very fast laps at the end of FP2, on old options, (his last lap was a 1.16.9) suggesting that the Ferrari is kind to its tyres whislt still being fast. Therefore the question for me, is how much more in reserve have Ferrari got, should RBR or Mclaren be hiding their true pace?

Mclaren - The Mclaren drivers comments after FP1 & FP2 suggest, they didn't show their true pace today as the main aim was to keep it out of the barriers. For instance both drivers were noticly more smoother over the kerbs at the swimming pool. Very wise indeed. Also Hamilton appears to be very happy with his balance & reckons he can use DRS more, during qualifying on Saturday. Whislt Button, reckons their more time to be found in his car setup. To me the Mclaren looked a very light car, i.e. the way the drivers could flick the car into Tabac was most impressive. So maybe they have more up their sleeve?

RBR - Again have they got more in reserve, for instance were they missing KERS? Webber had a KERS issue earlier in the session, & Vettel was using KERS but on one graphic he only used about half on one lap. Very interesting split times from the Red Bulls, losing 0.5s in sector 1 to the McLarens, Rosberg and Alonso but then matching them the rest of lap. Given S1 is the shortest sector at just under 20s (25% laptime) 0.5s is huge. Most of S1 is spent climbing the hill, therefore one can only assume RBR were not running KERS which explains their lack of performance in S1. Also Vettel was a little scruffy in FP2, & didn't look as comfortable with his car as say Alonso. So I think Vettel has more time to find, within himself. Same with Webber, as he missed FP1.

BTW if the super-soft lasts longer than expected, it could be that everyone does two runs in Q3. Track position is more important here than in previous venues.

Yes I agree track position is vital for quali, therefore given that todays evidence suggest, the tyres will last reasonably well. We should see a more 'normal' Q3 session. BTW - traffic on Saturday could be a massive problem, particularly Q1, since drivers will be seeking to take as little life out of their tyres after their hotlap in quali (therefore doing a slow 'in lap').