Singapore's Conspiracy Theory - Briatore/Symonds leave

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 17 Sep 2009, 20:03

shinji wrote:
johnston21 wrote:Looks like the Renault bloggers are quite gutted.

http://my.ing-renaultf1.com/en/blog/133 ... ml#comment

That's hilarious, the word 'fanboy' is overused on the internet these days, but really, some of the commenters are deluded in their support of Flavio. Flavio, of all people. How big a Renault fan would you have to be?

Now it's almost pathetic. Some recent quotes: :mrgreen:

I totally refuse to believe Renault would do something like this, I have followed F1 since the Aerton Senna days, and been a fan of Renault & Fernando since the 3rd race in 2005.
There is no way Renualt as a team would risk it, it's not there style, NO WAY would they actually organise a crash on purpose, it totally riuculous, everyone know the harsh punishment if they do and get cuaght. it really its totally and utterly silly.
Flavio & pat were probably pushed to quit.
I'm with you all the way Renault

no team likes a driver who spills the beans when he leaves

My heart is broken .
Where is the good and evil ?
I will not judge to Flavio and Symond , I not judge .
I feel so bad , in my mind there are many funny memories , happy , sad , etc ... I remember the matey look of Symonds , his third way is to act , his moody , good-natured appearance with a few extra kg , his self-assurance , in uniform , his eternal youth , his way of dealing with Jourlalists and their refuser to acknowledge its mistakes ( their bad strategies ) . I look in his eyes and I never know what you're thinking because it is very slippery , Symonds I'll miss you .
Flavio is my weakness is the spitting image of Renault and the Formula One . I will miss his outbursts of temper , sympathy , kindness , fun ... I remenber in China : chinese you , chinese I .....
Briatore always so kind to Spanish media . Is very generous , always giving more than you expect .
I feel really bad because I no longer have him in the Renault pitwall , bad because I'm not going to see him with Fernando giving advice
I will miss her very much , leave and leave to write because my eyes are full of tears , always in my heart , see you soon , hurts , huts much

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 17 Sep 2009, 20:17

Steve wrote:All the great circuits have names for straights and corners that evoke the glorious history of the event and those that raced there. Being a new track, Singapore's a bit lacking in this area but I think we can help this with an unnoffical renaming of the now-legendary Turn 17. Options include 'Piquet's End', 'Curva Briatore', or 'Crollo Cancello' (an extremely bastardized rendition of 'Crashgate' in Italian).

I quite like Piquet's End. And Crollo Cancello. Curva Briatore not so much, it's a bit more generic compared to the other two

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 17 Sep 2009, 20:33

My heart is broken .
Where is the good and evil ?
I will not judge to Flavio and Symond , I not judge .
I feel so bad , in my mind there are many funny memories , happy , sad , etc ... I remember the matey look of Symonds , his third way is to act , his moody , good-natured appearance with a few extra kg , his self-assurance , in uniform , his eternal youth , his way of dealing with Jourlalists and their refuser to acknowledge its mistakes ( their bad strategies ) . I look in his eyes and I never know what you're thinking because it is very slippery , Symonds I'll miss you .
Flavio is my weakness is the spitting image of Renault and the Formula One . I will miss his outbursts of temper , sympathy , kindness , fun ... I remenber in China : chinese you , chinese I .....
Briatore always so kind to Spanish media . Is very generous , always giving more than you expect .
I feel really bad because I no longer have him in the Renault pitwall , bad because I'm not going to see him with Fernando giving advice
I will miss her very much , leave and leave to write because my eyes are full of tears , always in my heart , see you soon , hurts , huts much

That's the funniest thing ever!

(Well, after The Room http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISXiFJS9D5A)

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 17 Sep 2009, 21:56

Another quite amusing idea to come out of all this is the idea - currently being suggested in apparent seriousness by The Guardian here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/se ... o-briatore - that Craig Pollock could be a candidate to take over at Renault.

Craig Pollock!!?? I doubt Renault are that mad. It makes the notion of Alain Prost being given the job seem sensible!

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 17 Sep 2009, 22:21

Pardon me, but if Prost didn't do a good job at... Prost, is he a good choice?

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 17 Sep 2009, 23:31

Steve wrote:I quite like Piquet's End. And Crollo Cancello. Curva Briatore not so much, it's a bit more generic compared to the other two

I would stick to Curva Briatore, simply because curva (kurva) in Macedonian means a whore... :mrgreen:

XurizManson · Post by **XurizManson** » 18 Sep 2009, 00:18

lostpin wrote:
Steve wrote:I quite like Piquet's End. And Crollo Cancello. Curva Briatore not so much, it's a bit more generic compared to the other two

I would stick to Curva Briatore, simply because curva (kurva) in Macedonian means a whore...

Yeah, more! Bring more!

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 18 Sep 2009, 06:33

Paul Hayes wrote:Another quite amusing idea to come out of all this is the idea - currently being suggested in apparent seriousness by The Guardian here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/se ... o-briatore - that Craig Pollock could be a candidate to take over at Renault.

I wouldn't set too much stock by it, The Grauniad's motorsport coverage is a damn joke. These are the eejits who saw fit to run that "Leaked FOTA series Calendar", complete with mid-week race dates.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 18 Sep 2009, 07:19

Conspiracy! (sorry, in Italian):
http://www.corriere.it/sport/09_settemb ... aabc.shtml

This is what Nelson Piquet Sr. testified in front of FIA officers Martin Smith and Jake Marsh, according to "Il Corriere della Sera"

Allegedly, Charlie Whiting was informed by Nelson Sr. about the crash already in 2008, before the Brazilian GP, and said "Sorry, but we can't prove it".
Nelson Sr. spoke again with Bernie about the crash before the Hungarian GP this year, and asked "What should I do about it?" Bernie allegedly replied "Screw him (Flav)".
Nelson also claims that Mosley knew everything as well, but decided not to press charges, as Whiting thought it was impossible to prove anything.

The plot thickens...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 18 Sep 2009, 07:47

muttley wrote:Conspiracy! (sorry, in Italian):
http://www.corriere.it/sport/09_settemb ... aabc.shtml

This is what Nelson Piquet Sr. testified in front of FIA officers Martin Smith and Jake Marsh, according to "Il Corriere della Sera"

Allegedly, Charlie Whiting was informed by Nelson Sr. about the crash already in 2008, before the Brazilian GP, and said "Sorry, but we can't prove it".
Nelson Sr. spoke again with Bernie about the crash before the Hungarian GP this year, and asked "What should I do about it?" Bernie allegedly replied "Screw him (Flav)".
Nelson also claims that Mosley knew everything as well, but decided not to press charges, as Whiting thought it was impossible to prove anything.

The plot thickens...

You know what? Despite believing that level of detail in what everyone has said and done, I am sort of prepared to believe this has been brewing in the background for a while.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 18 Sep 2009, 08:40

CarlosFerreira wrote:You know what? Despite believing that level of detail in what everyone has said and done, I am sort of prepared to believe this has been brewing in the background for a while.

What I understand is that "Sorry we can't prove it" translates in F1-speak as "Sorry, we can't use this information for our own advantage yet".

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 18 Sep 2009, 09:15

muttley wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:You know what? Despite believing that level of detail in what everyone has said and done, I am sort of prepared to believe this has been brewing in the background for a while.

What I understand is that "Sorry we can't prove it" translates in F1-speak as "Sorry, we can't use this information for our own advantage yet".

That is clearly conspiratory. Could be. I prefer to think the thing has been brewing, there was a general knowledge something had happened, but nobody wanted to spill the beans.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 18 Sep 2009, 10:45

Henrique wrote:Pardon me, but if Prost didn't do a good job at... Prost, is he a good choice?

Exactly.

Winterspring · Post by **Winterspring** » 18 Sep 2009, 10:49

Imagine Ralf Schumacher as team head.

But Renault would likely quit because this is really embrassing for the company themselves.

Oh and I'm new here, so hi

Post by **Nuppiz** » 18 Sep 2009, 21:44

http://cdn.images.autosport.com/specials/renaultcrash/RenaultRadio.pdf

:shock:

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 18 Sep 2009, 21:48

Flav wrote:Let’s see the Japanese now yutaw taw.

?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Sep 2009, 11:40

Early reports from Paris are suggesting Renault have received a two-year suspended sentence and fine. Provided that they manage to not fix a race for the next two years, they will not be punished.

I have no English-language sources as yet.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:10

Just dropped on the wires - two-year suspended ban for Renault.

They got off lightly, really.

EDIT: Also this...

FORMER RENAULT TEAM BOSS FLAVIO BRIATORE BANNED FROM FORMULA ONE
ACTIVITES, INCLUDING DRIVER MANAGEMENT - FIA

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:20

Also, Pat Symonds has been banned for five years, which effectively ends his career I imagine.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:29

Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:30

Captain Hammer wrote:I have no English-language sources as yet.

Your non-english source seems just fine.

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:31

Paul Hayes wrote:Also, Pat Symonds has been banned for five years, which effectively ends his career I imagine.

I thought Pat was offered immunity? Maybe he didnt act fast enough to confess or turned the offer down.

Captain Hammer wrote:Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

So which current driver/s fall under that banner? I think Grosjean is 1 though now I've said it I'm probably wrong.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:42

Tealy wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

So which current driver/s fall under that banner? I think Grosjean is 1 though now I've said it I'm probably wrong.

Alonso, Grosjean, Webber, Kovalainen and Vitaly Petrov, who only recently signed (and whose signing suggests to me that he either expects or will be prmoted to Formula One next season)

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:43

Captain Hammer wrote:Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

Indeed, and not just from F1, but any FIA-affiliated series.

watka · Post by **watka** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:53

Captain Hammer wrote:Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

Don't see how all of those drivers could effectively just be banned when they had nothing to do with the event, and Renault as a company has got away virtually scot-free.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Sep 2009, 12:56

watka wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

Don't see how all of those drivers could effectively just be banned when they had nothing to do with the event, and Renault as a company has got away virtually scot-free.

They're not banned from racing. Briatore is banned from managing them. They can always go and find another manager, like Nicolas Todt ...

Anyway, I have to ask: who are we really punishing here?

Does Renault deserve a greater penalty than they were given? Personally, I'd say no. Consider this for a moment: Renault is made up of more than just Alonso, Piquet, Briatore and Symonds. There are dozens of race engineers, mechanics, PR people and an entire army of workers who keep the team moving on a race weekend. And then there's Renaut itself, the car company, staffed by tens of thousands. And what was their crime? Absolutely nothing. They didn't plan this. They didn't stand up to be counted with Briatore and Symonds. They are only guilty by association.

On the other hand, there is Briatore and Symonds. Or, if the verdict is anything to go by, just Flavio Briatore. Either Symonds took a last-minute deal, or the council decided that Briatore planned it and that Symonds was simply doing as he was told, like Nelson Piquet Jnr. Briatore, it seems, orchestrated this little episode. He did not do it with the knowledge or consent of people like Carlos Ghosn, and he did not inform everyone in the team of what he was doing.

So, who are we really punishing?

Personally, I think the WMSC got this one right. Why should Renault as a team and a company suffer because Briatore decided to fix the race? That's not justice, that's collateral damage! Briatore is the one who should be on the receiving end; while Renault are guilty to a certain extent, what did they do to deserve a ban or an exclusion that Briatore didn't do on his own? The terms "Renaut" and "Flavio Briatore" may be used interchangeably, but they are not one and the same. Briatore deserves this, not the dozens of people who form the ING Renault F1 Team.

And Renault are apparently getting Alain Prost as a replacement for Briatore. Isn't that punishment enough?

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 21 Sep 2009, 13:15

Captain Hammer wrote:Anyway, I have to ask: who are we really punishing here?

Does Renault deserve a greater penalty than they were given? Personally, I'd say no. Consider this for a moment: Renault is made up of more than just Alonso, Piquet, Briatore and Symonds. There are dozens of race engineers, mechanics, PR people and an entire army of workers who keep the team moving on a race weekend. And then there's Renaut itself, the car company, staffed by tens of thousands. And what was their crime? Absolutely nothing. They didn't plan this. They didn't stand up to be counted with Briatore and Symonds. They are only guilty by association.

Renault has to be held accountable for Briatore's action. Or didn't they know that Briatore had already a bad reputation? It makes me wonder if they actually watched the 1994 season. And weren't the big guns in Renault even a lit bit startled that such an aggressive and risky strategy worked so well, especially with the other Renault car having a decisive participation in that success?

So the "I didn't know" excuse is not a valid one - although it glues for many...

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 21 Sep 2009, 13:21

I agree with Captain that they have probably got ths punishment about right on this one. I'm glad they didnt repeat the "Spygate" punishment that McLaren received which I still think to this day was very heavy handed.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 21 Sep 2009, 14:08

Paul Hayes wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Briatore hasn't just been banned, he's been banned for life. Moreover, Superlicences will not be issued or renewed to any driver who is accosiated - read: managed - by him.

Indeed, and not just from F1, but any FIA-affiliated series.

The FIA will also not sanction any series that has any involvment from Flav... so what of GP2 which he co-owns?

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 21 Sep 2009, 14:13

As for Renault deserving greater punishment, While I don't think a ban or spygate-esque fine would have been appropriate, I still would have liked to see them stripped of all 2008 constructor's ponits (also Piquet for driver's, were it not for the immunity).

However, I appreciate that once you do that, a pretty complicated money situation comes up - not just in terms of recouping from Renault what they received for finishing where they did, but then there's also money that would arguably become due to Force India, Toro Rosso etc as a result of their gaining a place.

I can certainly see the reasoning behind the punishment given, but it does leave a feeling that they got away very lighly.

dresda · Post by **dresda** » 21 Sep 2009, 14:19

I haven't seen any mention anywhere in the reports I've read of Alonso losing credit for that win... Which I'm a bit surprised about.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 21 Sep 2009, 15:11

dresda wrote:I haven't seen any mention anywhere in the reports I've read of Alonso losing credit for that win... Which I'm a bit surprised about.

Because they need Fernando: if he's forced to quit, they lose the spanish market. Note how nothing sticks to him: in the Spygate case, he knew where the Ferrari files came from, but was offered immunity.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 21 Sep 2009, 15:24

dresda wrote:I haven't seen any mention anywhere in the reports I've read of Alonso losing credit for that win... Which I'm a bit surprised about.

Apparently the FIA regulations state the results of races cannot be changed after November 30th of the year in question.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 21 Sep 2009, 16:02

I'm mostly with the Captain on this one. The great question here is Symmonds, what he did and why he got off relatively lightly. Apparently, he did confess and regretted, unlike Briatore:

In determining that such instructions should be effective for a period of five years the World Motor Sport Council has had regard: (i) to Mr. Symonds' acceptance that he took part in the conspiracy; and (ii) to his communication to the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council that it was to his "eternal regret and shame" that he participated in the conspiracy.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78771

And the verdict seems to refer only to the potential safety consequences of the shenanigan, not throwing the sport in disrepute.

The World Motor Sport Council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity. Renault F1's breaches not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself.

Ron and Flav are out now. I wonder what Flab Flav may know about people in the paddock that might emerge in a few months - or, alternatively, allow his reinstatement?

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 21 Sep 2009, 16:48

Just thought I'd quote James Allen here:

Briatore’s scalp was always the main target for the FIA, but Renault’s punishment will still look rather odd in the history books compared to the huge fine McLaren got two years ago for a far less serious crime. The difference between the two in the FIA’s eyes is honesty, in the way the team conducted itself and tackled its defence of the charges. But $100 million is an awful lot of honesty in comparison with the sheer danger involved with Renault’s transgression.

For that previous Renault/McLaren similarities discussion.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 21 Sep 2009, 18:47

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm mostly with the Captain on this one. The great question here is Symmonds, what he did and why he got off relatively lightly. Apparently, he did confess and regretted, unlike Briatore:

In determining that such instructions should be effective for a period of five years the World Motor Sport Council has had regard: (i) to Mr. Symonds' acceptance that he took part in the conspiracy; and (ii) to his communication to the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council that it was to his "eternal regret and shame" that he participated in the conspiracy.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78771

And the verdict seems to refer only to the potential safety consequences of the shenanigan, not throwing the sport in disrepute.

The World Motor Sport Council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity. Renault F1's breaches not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself.

Ron and Flav are out now. I wonder what Flab Flav may know about people in the paddock that might emerge in a few months - or, alternatively, allow his reinstatement?

There's, maybe, no single legal concept of "Eternal regret and shame" nowhere at all. The whole thing is, again, contaminated with the religious oriented theme (in fact, "Eternal regret and shame" is fine for a board outisde the church The Simpsons go on Sundays with Flanders family).

Besides, if someone regrets, regrets and thats all. At most, Judges can say that someone that declared himself guilty is regreted of what he had done, but must not state subjetive opinions like "He is so, so, so regreted of what he had done that he could make a Disney movie with his regret. He is so, so, so nice and he is so, so so sad that makes part in tears" in order to justify lesser punishments.

I shout "Wich hunt", even if I don't give a dime for Briatore.

thalion · Post by **thalion** » 21 Sep 2009, 19:46

muttley wrote:
dresda wrote:I haven't seen any mention anywhere in the reports I've read of Alonso losing credit for that win... Which I'm a bit surprised about.

Because they need Fernando: if he's forced to quit, they lose the spanish market. Note how nothing sticks to him: in the Spygate case, he knew where the Ferrari files came from, but was offered immunity.

It gets better (worse?). Not only does nothing stick to Alonso, but he could potentially come out as the big winner of this whole fiasco. Look at it this way -- imagine you were about to sign a huge, multi-million dollar deal to drive for the most famous team in all of motor sport. Then, right before the deal was announced and money exchanged hands, a governing body gave you a sure-fire way of getting out of your contract with your manager, meaning that you would not have to pay any percentage to anyone. If this matches reality, then perhaps Nelsinho's intentional crash did quite a bit more for Fernando than just win him one race!

The Tinfoil Hat Brigade should start looking into this.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 21 Sep 2009, 20:25

You can't change the results of the race after the season has officially ended, so his win and the points they got will stand. I'm surprised by how light the punishment was, then again the FIA don't want another manufacturer leaving F1...

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 22 Sep 2009, 02:40

Looking at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZrCVbU6 ... re=related

It seems that Piquet almost failed at his mission because he almost crashed on the formation lap. Imagine the historical implications if he had; Briatore and Symonds wouldn't be banned, and Massa could very well be world champion.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Sep 2009, 07:11

LionZoo wrote:It seems that Piquet almost failed at his mission because he almost crashed on the formation lap. Imagine the historical implications if he had; Briatore and Symonds wouldn't be banned, and Massa could very well be world champion.

The suspicion is that his spin on the warmup lap was actualy a test-run for later so that he could get his technique right.