Grand Prix Rejects

watka wrote:

Aerospeed wrote:

watka wrote:To be honest, Honda should save money a ditch Pedrosa and replace him with... no-one. The team revolves around Marquez and he has many, many, many years left in MotoGP. The constructors cup means pretty much nothing in MotoGP, its all about the rider's title, so what's the point in running a 2nd bike in a discipline where it is so hard for one team mate to protect the other?

Also add the fact that only the best bike counts towards the results for the constructors cup, and the plan kinda makes sense. However, I think that there should still be a second Honda bike, mainly to get another great rider to compete in the series. Maybe he could bring some sponsor cash as well. Does the rules force both bikes to be the same livery? They could have different sponsors to advertise. Or they can circumvent this and have a satellite team with the factory's support run the sponsored bike.

Trying to push to find the next big thing so soon (if this is what you're suggesting) though would only serve to undermine Marquez and if anything cause him to lose his focus when right now the team should just be happy to sit as they are. If you're going to have a 2nd bike then may as well let Pedrosa keep the ride as he's solid but never going to be a threat to Marquez.

Exactly - so long as Honda have a major advantage and Marquez is willing to stay, Honda are going to pick a competent but otherwise unthreatening rider as his partner to ensure that relations within the team stay reasonably cordial and have a second rider that can occasionally take points from Marquez's rivals.

Jocke1 wrote:That start just now


EDIT;
Nine in a row ffs..

It adds up to an interesting question - we've seen that Dorna is trying to cut back Honda's advantage to even up the field, with Honda naturally pushing back aggressively against those proposals. Sooner or later though, it's going to reach a point where Dorna will presumably want to take a more aggressive approach to Honda, because you have to wonder if manufacturers like Suzuki might reconsider their plans to return to the MotoGP class if Honda are so dominant.

So Crutchlow out of Ducati at the end of the year, or maybe even sooner, to be replaced by Iannone. Cal goes to LCR Honda. Likely a decent move, though somewhat of a comedown for the guy who a year ago said he wouldn't accept anything other than a full factory ride...

madmark1974 wrote:So Crutchlow out of Ducati at the end of the year, or maybe even sooner, to be replaced by Iannone. Cal goes to LCR Honda. Likely a decent move, though somewhat of a comedown for the guy who a year ago said he wouldn't accept anything other than a full factory ride...

There just isn't any about though is there? Aside from the crap Ducati, you have Pedrosa and Rossi locked in at Honda and Yamaha respectively for another two years, Marquez isn't going to go anywhere in the foreseeable future and you'd have to assume Yamaha would want to keep Lorenzo, even if he's had a bit of a poor year. There will be Suzuki of course (hooray!) but you just know that bike will be off the pace from the start, around the same as the Ducati and be even less developed.

So really for Crutchlow (who let's be honest, is a good rider, but isn't a world beater) there isn't anywhere else to go. It's either a thankless task on the Duke or Suzuki, or a satellite team.

On Suzuki though, it's going to be interesting to see how they do. The latest testing times don't look that impressive, and it seems to me that they'll be in roughly the same position as when they left the series a few years back - lower end of the top 10. They've never been able to master the 4 stroke period of the sport, aside from a few podiums in the mid 00s for the likes of Vermeulen and Hopkins. I think the best thing they can do this time around is try and up the number of Suzukis on the grid. Ducati are getting the message again finally as there'll be six from next season, so really Suzuki should either run a three bike team, or a factory team and a satellite or experimental squad, and gather as much data as possible. Can't see it happening though, and I'd wager strong money on them not even signing up any major sponsors in time for 2015.

AndreaModa wrote:

madmark1974 wrote:So Crutchlow out of Ducati at the end of the year, or maybe even sooner, to be replaced by Iannone. Cal goes to LCR Honda. Likely a decent move, though somewhat of a comedown for the guy who a year ago said he wouldn't accept anything other than a full factory ride...

There just isn't any about though is there? Aside from the crap Ducati, you have Pedrosa and Rossi locked in at Honda and Yamaha respectively for another two years, Marquez isn't going to go anywhere in the foreseeable future and you'd have to assume Yamaha would want to keep Lorenzo, even if he's had a bit of a poor year. There will be Suzuki of course (hooray!) but you just know that bike will be off the pace from the start, around the same as the Ducati and be even less developed.

So really for Crutchlow (who let's be honest, is a good rider, but isn't a world beater) there isn't anywhere else to go. It's either a thankless task on the Duke or Suzuki, or a satellite team.

On Suzuki though, it's going to be interesting to see how they do. The latest testing times don't look that impressive, and it seems to me that they'll be in roughly the same position as when they left the series a few years back - lower end of the top 10. They've never been able to master the 4 stroke period of the sport, aside from a few podiums in the mid 00s for the likes of Vermeulen and Hopkins. I think the best thing they can do this time around is try and up the number of Suzukis on the grid. Ducati are getting the message again finally as there'll be six from next season, so really Suzuki should either run a three bike team, or a factory team and a satellite or experimental squad, and gather as much data as possible. Can't see it happening though, and I'd wager strong money on them not even signing up any major sponsors in time for 2015.

I'd agree that it looks as if they are going to struggle to improve much beyond where they were when they left, even if they were to copy what Ducati have done and go for the open class - after all, it's had a fairly limited impact on Ducati's competitiveness. Furthermore, you're probably right that they will struggle to sign a major sponsor, particularly if their testing times are quite poor - if you're sponsoring a factory team, you'd expect them to be competing at the front with the other factory works outfits, not potentially struggling with the satellite teams of Honda and Yamaha.

I agree with Suzuki not really being good after 1999 and 2000 - they had a somewhat competitive year in 2005, but I don't think they'll be able to challenge for much in the beginning.
I think they will have reliability problems, but for the first season, they should realistically aim for top 10 finishes by the end of the year.

The MARQUEZWINSLOL steamroller marches on, that's 10 wins from 10 MotoGP races this year.

East Londoner wrote:MotoGP announce 5 year deal for the British round commencing from next year...at a circuit which hasn't yet been built...

This has made me quite angry today, and I've stated on here before why I'm opposed to this ludicrous plan for a circuit in the middle of Wales. Not only does it render Silverstone's track upgrades (the new loop section) completely pointless, as it was done to appease Dorna and the FIM and replace Bridge corner which was deemed unsafe for bikes, but also puts MotoGP's presence in Britain in a very precarious position.

That is, first of all, whether or not the circuit is even built. There are still outstanding land issues, and money to be found. But let's say that, against all odds, the circuit is somehow miraculously finished for the 2016 race - how many people from the south east of England, the North East and anyone more than about 3 or 4 hours away, will consider going? This isn't Brands Hatch, on the doorstep of London, Silverstone or Donington in their central locations, or even Oulton Park, no more than an hour's drive from Liverpool, Manchester and most of the North West. This is stuck out on the edge of the Brecon Beacons, bleak as you like, tricky to get to, and a long way from anywhere except Cardiff and Bristol. I'm sorry but I can't see it bringing in the flood of fans a more centrally-located track would.

And Michael Carrick expects it to become a "motorsport hub" does he? 750,000 people visiting a year? He's nuts! I'd be surprised if Silverstone manages more than three-quarters of a million people every year - they probably get about 500,000 after the F1 and MotoGP combined, but BTCC, BSB, WEC, etc hardly bring in any more than 40-50,000 on a good day. I'm ready to be proven wrong on the numbers, but I can guarantee that this new track will not get anything like 750,000 people visiting. And none of the F1 teams, and their suppliers will relocate. Why would they? They'd have to be giving away floor space and workshop units for anyone to consider moving more than two hours away from the "Motorsport Valley". The whole project smells of a lost cause, much in the same way Donington did in 2010. Too many holes in the proposals, too much reliance on factors completely out of the organisers' control. They don't have the money, and if the government steps in to meet the shortfall, I'd expect legal action from at the very least Silverstone, if not the other major tracks too, probably led by Palmer and MSV.

I'm not against new tracks being built in this country, let me make that clear. I'm against stupid proposals like this that basically threaten to erode the good work done by the existing tracks who often get by hand-to-mouth with little or no support. Mallory Park for example was only recently saved and fortunately will be holding races again soon, but clearly it's not easy. If Michael Carrick had come in, co-operated with the other tracks and done things nicely I'd have much more time for him. But it's all adversarial rubbish, "us versus them" crap. And the net result will just be damage to everyone. He needs to go away, find a better location for a track, or better still, buy an existing one and renovate that - it's not like there's a shortage of them! What was wrong with going to Angelsey or Pembrey and working to make them better, if he wanted a track in Wales? How about helping Mallory out, or Donington, or Thruxton?

So yeah, pretty pissed off by all of this, if you can't tell!

Well... as someone who lives in the area, I'm fairly pleased by this development, even as someone who has absolutely no interest in motorbike racing - I believe the stated goal for the track was to secure the MotoGP round, and now that they have, I'm a little bit more confident that the track will actually become a reality. My hope is that it'll host a BTCC round, which I would love to attend. But on the subject of people considering going there - well, if you're going to have a track in Wales, easily the best place to have it is somewhere in the South Wales Valleys. It's by far the most populous area, what with Cardiff, Swansea, Newport all quite close by, over 2 million people in the region. It's only a 2, 2-and-a-half hour drive from Birmingham Though I will agree that 750,000 visitors is a bit overoptimistic an estimate, and the 'motorsport hub' idea is complete rubbish.

I'm not against new tracks being built in this country, let me make that clear. I'm against stupid proposals like this that basically threaten to erode the good work done by the existing tracks who often get by hand-to-mouth with little or no support. Mallory Park for example was only recently saved and fortunately will be holding races again soon, but clearly it's not easy. If Michael Carrick had come in, co-operated with the other tracks and done things nicely I'd have much more time for him. But it's all adversarial rubbish, "us versus them" crap. And the net result will just be damage to everyone. He needs to go away, find a better location for a track, or better still, buy an existing one and renovate that - it's not like there's a shortage of them! What was wrong with going to Angelsey or Pembrey and working to make them better, if he wanted a track in Wales? How about helping Mallory out, or Donington, or Thruxton?

There's hardly a better location for a new circuit in the UK. The only other place possibly worth bothering with is the Scottish Lowlands/Northumberland, but even then that puts you in direct competition with Knockhill/Croft. Whereas in South Wales, you have Castle Combe... and maybe Thruxton?

Pembrey is barely a mile and a half and hardly the most interesting track, and - even living in Cardiff, fairly close by, I don't have a clue when races happen there. Angelsey is even worse, being located in north Wales where relatively few people live. As for Mallory Park, well, I fail to see how it's relevant, unless it was making a bid for the same race? Yeah, it's a tough situation, but what do you want? Mallory Park a small, relatively unknown track in the middle of a pair of very well known tracks. I hardly see what effect Ebbw Vale will have on it that Silverstone and Donington, and to a lesser extent, Rockingham won't. And as for this 'adversarial rubbish, "us versus them" crap', well, forgive me for being frank, but that is exactly the vibe I am getting from you.

As for the actual proposal though, I will agree that it does feel eerily similar to the Donington 2010 proposal, which I was also quite hopeful for. Hopefully it won't pan out the same way, but I won't be too surprised if it does.

AndreaModa wrote:

East Londoner wrote:MotoGP announce 5 year deal for the British round commencing from next year...at a circuit which hasn't yet been built...

[...]That is, first of all, whether or not the circuit is even built. There are still outstanding land issues, and money to be found. But let's say that, against all odds, the circuit is somehow miraculously finished for the 2016 race - how many people from the south east of England, the North East and anyone more than about 3 or 4 hours away, will consider going? This isn't Brands Hatch, on the doorstep of London, Silverstone or Donington in their central locations, or even Oulton Park, no more than an hour's drive from Liverpool, Manchester and most of the North West. This is stuck out on the edge of the Brecon Beacons, bleak as you like, tricky to get to, and a long way from anywhere except Cardiff and Bristol. I'm sorry but I can't see it bringing in the flood of fans a more centrally-located track would.

I have to agree that the transport links are one major issue with the proposed location, and I have to agree that the circuit does not look like it would be well connected to any of the major cities in the UK.

The visitor numbers that they believe that they can get seem optimistic too - Silverstone gets around a million visitors a year, but a sizeable proportion of those visitors come during the British GP weekend (around 300,000 at the moment), an event which this circuit would be unable to hold. By way of comparison, Donington claims to have around 440,000 visitors a year, and that is a circuit which is relatively established - so quite how this circuit anticipates pulling in nearly 1.7 times the numbers that Donington, for example, pulls in sounds a bit dubious, even if they have a reasonably major series like MotoGP coming to them.

I also agree that the claims that the circuit will act as a technology hub sounds a bit optimistic too - as you say, there is no incentive for the current suppliers to move from their current bases around Silverstone given that so much of the existing industry is already concentrated there. Why would you want to move away from a region with an established customer base, good transport links and is surrounded by a large number of universities with strong reputations for turning out capable graduate engineers?

All in all, whilst Salamander's enthusiasm for investment in the area is certainly understandable, I'm not sure that the economics of the deal really make that much sense.

mario wrote:I have to agree that the transport links are one major issue with the proposed location, and I have to agree that the circuit does not look like it would be well connected to any of the major cities in the UK.

It's an hour or less drive from each of the 3 major cities in Wales, and Bristol. It's a 2-2.5 hour drive from Birmingham. It's not ideal, I don't see that as being particularly badly connected. And as I said, if you're going to be building a new track, south Wales is the best place in terms of balancing local population and lack of competition. I have no grand expectations for this, I just think it'd be nice if it actually happened and I could watch BTCC there or something. That's all.

Salamander wrote:I have no grand expectations for this, I just think it'd be nice if it actually happened and I could watch BTCC there or something. That's all.

Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree with this. I've moved to Bristol and even Thruxton is over an hour away for me so if anywhere could do with a decent track, it's the West Country/South Wales. If this gets finished and they host BTCC races there, I'd be all over for checking that out. As I said, I'm not against building new tracks in this country, I think that should be welcomed. I want to clarify at this point, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just highly skeptical of the plans, and I'm just pointing out my reasons for those feelings.

The fact is, a lot has been made in the press of the circuit's need for funding, it's appeal to the government to stump up £50million and Silverstone's subsequent protest of that. Michael Carrick is spouting wildly over-optimistic claims of visitor numbers, and establishing a motorsport hub when the country has arguably the best one in the world anyway a couple of hours further east. To me it looks like its either a lot of ignorance, or an attempt to upset the apple cart. Either way, it's not a constructive way of going about introducing a new circuit. We all know what happened to Donington and had it turned out a bit worse we could have lost the F1 race altogether. I don't want that to happen to MotoGP. The fact they need an interim venue in 2015 tells you everything you need to know about the deal - it's poorly thought-out and incomplete. They've already committed themselves to something without having everything (or more specifically, anything) in place first.

That is damaging to the country and the other motorsport venues for a number of reasons.

Firstly, Silverstone has lost it's second-best attended event of the year, despite having made a significant investment itself to host it less than five years ago.That sort of investment needs a bit of long term support, not a short-term contract that then disappears, putting Silverstone in a potentially tricky position.

Secondly, if Ebbw Vale does fail, we potentially loose a popular world-class event to totally avoidable mis-management, and Silverstone's investment would really have been for nothing. Whilst Britain hasn't the richest history in world championship motorcycle racing (at least in more recent times) there is a significant biking community in the country, and now one of the biggest motorcycle manufacturers in the world too. That will also impact on MotoGP's attractiveness to sponsors, something they are already struggling with significantly.

Thirdly, should Ebbw Vale fail, it paints a very negative picture of the British motorsport industry, particularly in light of Donington's troubles. We've all talked about whether tracks like Korea, India, Austin, etc would be ready on time, and despite cutting it fine, they all have been. When the world casts a spotlight on your country expecting a new venue to feature, and it doesn't materialise, not once but twice in the space of five years, that isn't great for the British motorsport industry is it? At a time when the country is desperately scrabbling around trying to find other industries in which to invest and shift reliance away from the financial hub of London, we need motorsport, which has been highlighted by the Tories on numerous occasions, to be performing as well as possible. People like Michael Carrick aren't going to instil confidence in foreign investors looking to locate to the UK. If you were Gene Haas would you commit to leasing floor space at Ebbw Vale at this point in time when they have nothing but drawings and hollow promises? This then blows back on the rest of the industry in the country. It generates a negative, counter-productive feeling that scares off investment. If we want growth, this isn't the way to go about it.

So in my mind, the best thing Mr Carrick should have done, was sat down with the other circuit owners, got them on-side and liaised with them on the best way of introducing a new track to the country. It's good to have healthy competition every now and then, particularly as Donington and Brands have slipped down in terms of the events they now attract, but there's no point ruffling feathers until there is something concrete (literally) in place.

Ebbw Vale could have been a really successful project, but they've missed the point and have set themselves up for failure. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I can only see one outcome to all of this unfortunately.

Thank you for that, I have a much better idea of the situation and possible knock-on effects surrounding the track now.

Aaaaand Marquez's streak is over.

From reading Autosport it seems like Marquez is alright with having the streak broken as well.

And with the steamroller of the MARQUEZWINSLOL getting back on track, this weekend, just a mere couple of weeks after it was revealed that the "still to be built" circuit in Wales was to host the 2015 British GP for Moto GP, today it was announced that "problems" mean that Donington will host next year the British GP.

Miguel98 wrote:And with the steamroller of the MARQUEZWINSLOL getting back on track, this weekend, just a mere couple of weeks after it was revealed that the "still to be built" circuit in Wales was to host the 2015 British GP for Moto GP, today it was announced that "problems" mean that Donington will host next year the British GP.

Hmmm, what problems can they be?

Miguel98 wrote:And with the steamroller of the MARQUEZWINSLOL getting back on track, this weekend, just a mere couple of weeks after it was revealed that the "still to be built" circuit in Wales was to host the 2015 British GP for Moto GP, today it was announced that "problems" mean that Donington will host next year the British GP.

Ooh that sounds good. Whilst I love Silverstone, it's not the most interesting circuit in the world to spectate at! And for me, Donington is the real home of the British GP (for bikes!) and is a lot more suited to them than Silverstone is. Just take some time to watch this race, absolutely unreal racing (and a good example of what bikes without electronics handle like at the end of a race on knackered tyres!).

It's just such a shame Donington's facilities have always been so poor. But I'd definitely consider going along to that next year if I can!

Oh, how sweet it is

The crowd is simply amazing, I almost think it is Indy 500 What a win

This was Vale's 192nd podium in MotoGP (all three classes). Amazing.

I'm happy for Rossi's victory. Has to be this season's best feel-good moment so far.

Lorenzo's experience trumped Marquez's confidence today. It was stupid staying out that long on dry tires, and he needs to have a good think about why he would do something so reckless when EVERYONE else had pitted already.

F1000X wrote:Lorenzo's experience trumped Marquez's confidence today. It was stupid staying out that long on dry tires, and he needs to have a good think about why he would do something so reckless when EVERYONE else had pitted already.

He got very lucky that Dani and Rossi both crashed too, otherwise they would both be just over fifty points from him now. Any more cock-ups like that and he may risk choking the title away.

If he loses it now it will be the biggest cock up ever

Do you think Aleix Espargaro made a good move to join Suzuki next season? I kinda doubt it.

Shizuka wrote:Do you think Aleix Espargaro made a good move to join Suzuki next season? I kinda doubt it.

The most similar F1 analogy I can come up with is if Nico Hulkenberg decided to join a returning Toyota. Would that be good for him? I think it would produce the same wonders it produced to the careers of Mika Salo and Olivier Panis. I wish I am wrong in Aleix's case.

Well done Hiroshi, well done: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116287

Meanwhile, Marquez still seems a bit off the pace. 4th on the grid is not terrible but he's been shaky.

Bradley Smith!

Jocke1 wrote:Bradley Smith!

Still not convinced by the guy personally. Well done to him, but he had to rely on Pedrosa retiring and Marquez, Crutchlow and Pol Espargaro falling off ahead of him. Pol Espargaro is still ahead of him in the championship desperate his non-finish, and he's a rookie. With his junior record too I'm totally convinced he does deserve to be in MotoGP on anything other than a CRT machine. Perhaps I'm just a bitter Crutchlow fan...

I only started watching grand prix motorcycle racing back in 2012, up until this point I don't think I've seen a race that tire compounds played such a big factor. Phillip Island really is an incredible circuit.

How incredibly disappointing that Crutchlow rode brilliantly and then dropped the bike on the last lap. I thought Marquez' crash from the lead was due to lack of focus, but it appears the use of the asymmetric tire in the race conditions set both of them up for failure.

I don't watch motogp live anymore, one thing that annoyed me about Eurosport commentry was that during the support races any british rider higher than 25th was having a fantastic race. I don't think being 19th ish every race is fantastic. Solid rode by Bradley to get a podium but he should really be beating pol.

Pol Espargaro broke his leg. Get well soon!

Ouch!
Congratulations to Rabat for winning the moto2 title, although that was rather predictable at the start of the year.

Looks like there might not be a British MotoGP round this year. Or next year, given that construction STILL hasn't begun on the Circuit of Wales.

East Londoner wrote:Looks like there might not be a British MotoGP round this year. Or next year, given that construction STILL hasn't begun on the Circuit of Wales.

Silverstone will take it. They wanted it before, only the Circuit of Wales came in with an obscene offer that Dorna couldn't refuse and chased after like a randy dog.

Carmelo will just have to revise his expectations of how much money he'll get and Silverstone will have it.

If the CoW doesn't deliver next year, reports are that their contract will be void anyway, so with the enquiry holding things up further, I suspect that in a couple of months we'll know if it will be ready in time. With this latest setback, I doubt it will ever happen.

Can't say I'm surprised though - this thread is full of my conjecture about the project, though I am disappointed it won't be at Donington, I was thinking of going to see it there. Silverstone isn't the same for bikes, it's far too open.

So everyone's favourite doctor, Valentino Rossi, took honours in the first race of the season in Qatar. Amazing how he has pushed on since the awful years at Ducati and the first year of his return to Yamaha where he looked finished as a competitive rider.

Can't help but wonder what Cal Crutchlow must be thinking seeing two Ducatis on the podium...

watka wrote:Can't help but wonder what Cal Crutchlow must be thinking seeing two Ducatis on the podium...

Can't be a million miles away from what Fernando Alonso was thinking as he watched the events at Melbourne unfold.

Well done Marquez. Really keeping your shite together.

Boy, that kid has lost his nerve!