The Formula 1 Rejects Teams Association (F1RTA) Thread

[TomWazzleshaw]

With the rate the main thread for the F1RWRS is growing at such a rate that I felt that the F1RTA deserves it's own thread. Basically, someone (Usually me ) sets an agenda for each "meeting", so to speak, which the team owners will debate on. The current agenda for this meeting (Which will be closed at Pre-Qualifying for Round 6 at Monaco where relevant changes as a result of the "meeting" may be applied from the French GP onwards) is as follows and please, feel free to add more topics for discussion:

1. The "Equalisation" formula for 2015 and beyond
2. Solutions for the Turbo Ban
3. Proposed preliminary changes to the calender. (i.e. the proposed Turkish GP in place of the Med GP)
4. Priority for new entries going to people who have never had a F1RWRS entry before (Suggested by Eurobrun)
5. Superlicense criteria for drivers outside F2RWRS & F3RWRS. (Suggested by Kostas22)
6. Driver contracts (Suggested by AdrianSutil)

I'll add my own two cents later.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Priority for new entries going to people who have never had a F1RWRS entry before

[Aerospeed]

Adressing each solution as a person, not as The Fox or Andrea Acuri.

1. I've read it on the main forum and I quite agree with it. I don't think it should be changed at all.

2. I have only one solution for the turbos: Have the entire field with Turbo engines! In my opinion it would make the racing so much better...

3. Definetly axe the Mediterranean GP for another track. Not Istanbul. though. Jerez, maybe. I know I say that a lot but it's a fantastic track, brought us great racing. Also, why is Montreal not on the track?

4. Those who never had an entry before gets first priority. If there is still a tie, I do not think "first come first serve" is quite fair, as there are lots of people in different time zones. Also, a lottery system relies too much in luck. I haven't read eurobrun's post yet, I'll have to take another look at it.

[dr-baker]

As regards the turbos, Foxdale have replaced their turbo with a normally aspirated engine and invested heavily in it. If turbos are to be banned, Foxdale would be happy. If the status quo remains, Foxdale would be indifferent. If everyone were to need to run turbos, Foxdale would want to be given their old turbos back for no cost (although they would pay if they were to have any other turbo engine...).

[tommykl]

1. The TV money solution is very well thought-out, and I have to admit I like it better than my own proposition.

2. I personally don't see the problem with the ban of turbos, as my engine is naturally aspirated. I say no to turbos!

3. The Mediterranean GP, after what happened last year, is a disaster waiting to happen. We don't want another driver to suffer the same fate as Dave's. I say we keep it, but we change the circuit. I propose Enna-Pergusa or Barcelona.

4. I agree with the fact that users who have not yet been involved in the series (driver or team) should have the first pick. If there is a tie, I propose that we simply decide which team is more professional, taking into account their proposed cars, management structure and drivers. That should avoid including an unprepared team in the F1RWRS. We don't want another Virgin InterCorse, do we?

[dr-baker]

4. Those who never had an entry before gets first priority. If there is still a tie, I do not think "first come first serve" is quite fair, as there are lots of people in different time zones. Also, a lottery system relies too much in luck. I haven't read eurobrun's post yet, I'll have to take another look at it.

As regards this, I agree with those who have not had an entry before to have priority. But a "first come, first served" list, as is currently in existance, is fair, as I think there is often at least 12-24 hours between each person joining the list, thereby negating the time-zone argument. [Most people can fit in a visit to the forum once every 12 hours (once in the morning, once in the evening) can't they?]

[DemocalypseNow]

4. I agree with the fact that users who have not yet been involved in the series (driver or team) should have the first pick. If there is a tie, I propose that we simply decide which team is more professional, taking into account their proposed cars, management structure and drivers. That should avoid including an unprepared team in the F1RWRS. We don't want another Virgin InterCorse, do we?

OBJECTION!!!

Virgin Inter Corse was not a badly managed team. It was an unmanaged team. There were mitigating circumstances. I would therefore like to rebuke this attempt to tarnish my reputation, by pointing out that, for all intents and purposes, I have never run an F1RWRS team. However Scuderia Alitalia is currently active in five other series, four of which as team owner (F3RWRS, FRBCC, REECCS, GPM). Needless to say, despite re-hiring Phil McCracken - if he fails to improve in his next appearance in F2RWRS he will be dropped completely, never to disgrace himself in F1RWRS again. And, might I also point out, we have already signed Miko Fäkkinen who will have a valid Superlicense in 2015 on a pre-contract - the main clause being should Scuderia Alitalia fail to make the grid the pre-contract is null and void.

As the rules stand at this moment in time, we are first in line for a place in F1RWRS. I think bumping us down to something like 4th or 5th would be incredibly unfair!

[Klon]

The following is the transcript of El Presidente's statements to each of the topics mentioned. With him via telephone were two members of the German council running the team's everyday business (OT: "Germany 1" is Kay Lon, although your characters do not know that)

1. The "Equalisation" formula for 2015 and beyond

Yes, it is only right that we are helped by the F1RWRS community which profits a lot from our presence and the interest of all the Tropicans. You have my full support in this endeavour.

2. Solutions for the Turbo Ban

Well, it is rather obvious that the turbo engines are a significant advantage and therefore we must either ban them all or give them to everybody as proposed earlier.

Turbos for everyone would be silly though, since, as we both know very well, turbos are expensive and many other teams could not afford to run them. Obviously Tropico Grand Prix does not have this problem, but still...

3. Proposed preliminary changes to the calender

Quite obviously, the Tropican Grand Prix must be on the calendar next year! I would say it would make for the best season finale one could possibly hope for!

However another thing must be noted, namely Tropico Grand Prix's full support of the Mediterranean Grand Prix: it is one of the most interesting and challenging tracks on the calendar, both for car and driver. Furthermore, it is one of the safest tracks on the calender with the newest barrier technology. The only track that rivals its safety measures is the Fuji Speedway by virtue of being a giant parking lot. So removing it on grounds of safety is nothing short of populistic. If, however, the track needs to be replaced, I strongly detest giving Istanbul Park a race - if I want to be bored, I watch UFC and don't ruin a great racing series with an awful track.

Furthermore, we would like to emphasise our council's interest of seeing another race in Germany.

Yes, indeed. We propose to hold the Saxon Grand Prix at the EuroSpeedway Lausitz.

Obviously you can't add two tracks to the calendar without removing two. Our proposal would involve the cut of the French and Brazilian Grand Prix. We were to propose a cut of the Macau Grand Prix, however we have learned that the contract with Macau is pretty much untouchable until 2017.

4. Priority for new entries going to people who have never had a F1RWRS entry before

I do not see the need for such a rule, we managed to get our slot in F1RWRS, as a completely new investor without being prefereed to former F1RWRS team bosses. In the end, the capable men survive, the weak do not.

Out-of-character compendium:
1. Follow aerond's proposal
2. Turbos banned from 2015 onwards, as planned.
3. French Grand Prix --> Out; Tropico Grand Prix --> In at the end of the season to give me both in and out of character the chance to build it - Brazilian Grand Prix --> Out, although I would rather see Macau gone, but aerond is sadly pretty much fixed on having it on the calendar; Saxon or Bavarian Grand Prix --> In - Cyprus remains untouched
4. First come, first serve.

[DemocalypseNow]

Scuderia Alitalia would also like to add a fifth topic to the agenda; Superlicense criteria for drivers outwith F2RWRS & F3RWRS.

[AndreaModa]

I'll just say that:

1. I'm happy with the the TV money formula that Aerond came up with.

2. I'd like to see turbos banned.

3. Not bothered. As long as we keep a maximum of 16 races on the calender, I don't mind where we go.

4. Again not too fussed, as long as they are willing to come in and manage them properly, I haven't got a problem with anyone running a team.

[the Masked Lapwing]

1. Almost fine. The winner should get some money, even if it is only 50 credits or so. Otherwise, why win the championship?
2. Turbos go bye-bye.
3. I reckon the German GP should be held at the Nurburgring or Hockenheim, while the Norisring holds a Bavarian GP again, and Akrotiri Bay can disappear.
4. Don't care much, it doesn't affect me. Although maybe when a current team gets sold, rather than the first person on the list getting to choose, a deal can be made, like with me getting rid of Prospec and CR.

[Shizuka]

I'll just say that:

1. I'm happy with the the TV money formula that Aerond came up with.

2. I'd like to see turbos banned.

3. Not bothered. As long as we keep a maximum of 16 races on the calender, I don't mind where we go.

4. Again not too fussed, as long as they are willing to come in and manage them properly, I haven't got a problem with anyone running a team.

Absolutely agree.

[Aerospeed]

3. I reckon the German GP should be held at the Nurburgring or Hockenheim, while the Norisring holds a Bavarian GP again, and Akrotiri Bay can disappear.

Old Hockenheim?

[the Masked Lapwing]

3. I reckon the German GP should be held at the Nurburgring or Hockenheim, while the Norisring holds a Bavarian GP again, and Akrotiri Bay can disappear.

Old Hockenheim?

I prefer the new one but why not?

[dr-baker]

Is a Tourist Trophy GP on the Isle of Man possible?

[TomWazzleshaw]

CLARIFICATION FOR TOPIC 2:

I know that turbos are banned for next year but what I meant for "solution" was what the teams with Turbos can do at the end of the year which all the teams can agree on (i.e full refund rather than half refund, first preference to engines etc)

Oh and Dr Baker, You ARE using a Turbo engine this year

[Klon]

3. I reckon the German GP should be held at the Nurburgring or Hockenheim, while the Norisring holds a Bavarian GP again, and Akrotiri Bay can disappear.

Old Hockenheim?

I prefer the new one but why not?

For it would be awfully silly to replace Akrotiri Bay with another high-speed track...

I know that turbos are banned for next year but what I meant for "solution" was what the teams with Turbos can do at the end of the year which all the teams can agree on (i.e full refund rather than half refund, first preference to engines etc)

Nothing. They sell their engine like everyone else can do and buy new ones.

[Aerond]

I would say preferent access to market for turbo teams is enough

[Klon]

I would say preferent access to market for turbo teams is enough

I think even that is too much.

[Aerond]

1. Almost fine. The winner should get some money, even if it is only 50 credits or so. Otherwise, why win the championship?

1st team will probably reach 1000 credits anyway between championship prizes, points prizes, pole positions...

[Warren Hughes]

I would say preferent access to market for turbo teams is enough

I think even that is too much.

In the spirit of FOTA (that is, looking after my own interests above that of the series as a whole ), I agree with Klon.

[SuperAguri]

1 - TV Money seems a good solution, although maybe more money the further back you go.

2 - Teams with Turbo engines should be given the full market value for their engines and allowed to buy another engine, otherwise all the turbo teams will slide backwards. And in real life that did not happen.

There should be more engines, including engines that only existed on paper. I am sure reading in an old F1 Racing magazine there was a Marrs engine that should have come out, but never did or from companies that have never entered F1, a Russian Lada engine would be funny

3 - Calender is fine apart from the dull mediterian GP. Would love to see the Birmingham Super Prix on the calender...

4 - All people with 2 teams should sell their other team, like I am doing with Sunshine although Prince Falik will still own "50%" of Arrowtech, as apart from draw the car he does not do anything with the car.

Anyone that has a team but has not interacted with driver or team boss comments for at least 6 races should lose their team.

If someone close down the team from poor results, they should join the back of the queue for new teams.

I propose the following...

The top 10 teams should be safe, with the top 4 teams fighting it out for a place in qualifying.

In my own series which I run, only one team (out of 8) has failed to get out of prequalifying.

[AdrianSutil]

1. Prize money is fine. Although the top teams will have close to 1000 credits.

2. I haven't been part of this series for very long so I'm not sure what all this 'turbo ban' is about. So I'll just sit on the fence and whatever happens, happens.

3. Not fussed at all about the calendar.

4. All members with teams or drivers need to make regular posts in the topic.

Also, I propose another topic to discuss: How about putting your drivers on actual contracts? It should be a simple
concept. If a team wanted to sign someone else's driver, maybe an exchange of some credits would help teams needing money. Not a massive amount, something like the best drivers would be worth 250 credits and those at the back, including pay-drivers, be worth about 50.

[the Masked Lapwing]

Also, I propose another topic to discuss: How about putting your drivers on actual contracts? It should be a simple
concept. If a team wanted to sign someone else's driver, maybe an exchange of some credits would help teams needing money. Not a massive amount, something like the best drivers would be worth 250 credits and those at the back, including pay-drivers, be worth about 50.

With a max of 1000 credits to work with, definitely not. Otherwise we'll either have teams with brilliant drivers unable to do anything in a crapbox, or the best car on the grid with a couple of horrible drivers.

And why would we need to pay for a pay driver?

[Aerond]

2 - Teams with Turbo engines should be given the full market value for their engines and allowed to buy another engine, otherwise all the turbo teams will slide backwards. And in real life that did not happen.

There should be more engines, including engines that only existed on paper. I am sure reading in an old F1 Racing magazine there was a Marrs engine that should have come out, but never did or from companies that have never entered F1, a Russian Lada engine would be funny

I don´t know, there´re only 3 teams affected by this. I don´t think teams affected will slide backwards, as these teams will have probably credits enough to afford any engine available.

I don´t think there should be more engines. Currently there´s 21 engines available (which would be enough to supply 42 teams!). The engines disappearing will be replaced by others, but I don´t think much more engines would increase the fun. What I think is that some engines and chassises will disappear at the end of the year.

[Aerond]

Also, I propose another topic to discuss: How about putting your drivers on actual contracts? It should be a simple
concept. If a team wanted to sign someone else's driver, maybe an exchange of some credits would help teams needing money. Not a massive amount, something like the best drivers would be worth 250 credits and those at the back, including pay-drivers, be worth about 50.

This would get too complex. Actually, a team owner can ask a price for a driver, which must then be approved by the F1RWRS commision, but not for Pay Drivers. The asking price depends on the results of that driver and on the updates de team owner has put in that driver and a team owner can ask whatever price is wanted.

[TomWazzleshaw]

2 - Teams with Turbo engines should be given the full market value for their engines and allowed to buy another engine, otherwise all the turbo teams will slide backwards. And in real life that did not happen.

There should be more engines, including engines that only existed on paper. I am sure reading in an old F1 Racing magazine there was a Marrs engine that should have come out, but never did or from companies that have never entered F1, a Russian Lada engine would be funny

I don´t know, there´re only 3 teams affected by this. I don´t think teams affected will slide backwards, as these teams will have probably credits enough to afford any engine available.

I don´t think there should be more engines. Currently there´s 21 engines available (which would be enough to supply 42 teams!). The engines disappearing will be replaced by others, but I don´t think much more engines would increase the fun. What I think is that some engines and chassises will disappear at the end of the year.

I can assure you there are more than 3 teams affected by the turbo ban

[Aerond]

I can assure you there are more than 3 teams affected by the turbo ban

Which?

[TomWazzleshaw]

Going straight to the Superlicense criteria, I think that drivers in the BigCar championship and Super Aguri's championship that don't already have a drive should also be eligible for a Reject License but maybe only for drivers in the top 5 or top 10 in those championships as Aerond sees fit.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I can assure you there are more than 3 teams affected by the turbo ban

Which?

I counted 5 last time I checked: Sunshine, MRT, Dagnall, Acuri and Foxdale.

[Aerond]

I can assure you there are more than 3 teams affected by the turbo ban

Which?

I counted 5 last time I checked: Sunshine, MRT, Dagnall, Acuri and Foxdale.

In what universe a Renault engine from 1989 is a Turbo engine?

[Aerond]

Going straight to the Superlicense criteria, I think that drivers in the BigCar championship and Super Aguri's championship that don't already have a drive should also be eligible for a Reject License but maybe only for drivers in the top 5 or top 10 in those championships as Aerond sees fit.

Top 5 seems reasonable.

[DemocalypseNow]

Going straight to the Superlicense criteria, I think that drivers in the BigCar championship and Super Aguri's championship that don't already have a drive should also be eligible for a Reject License but maybe only for drivers in the top 5 or top 10 in those championships as Aerond sees fit.

Top 5 seems reasonable.

Driver standings go up and down as the year progresses. What if I were to announce right now that Nobushige Fukuda would drive for Scuderia Alitalia - who is currently 2nd in the championship - but by the end of the season he is down in 14th? I agree positions in some context should be used, but basing it on championship standing is just too confusing, eligibility could come and then vanish again during the same season.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Which?

I counted 5 last time I checked: Sunshine, MRT, Dagnall, Acuri and Foxdale.

In what universe a Renault engine from 1989 is a Turbo engine?

Oh. I thought it was the engine used in the Renault RS01

[Aerospeed]

Oh. I thought it was the engine used in the Renault RS01

So did I!

[AdrianSutil]

I know the drivers one salaried contracts might be too complex, but I'm only thinking about the new superlicense law coming in next year. If more teams enter the F1RWRS next year, there might be a shortage of drivers soon. Just my 10 cents.

[DemocalypseNow]

I know the drivers one salaried contracts might be too complex, but I'm only thinking about the new superlicense law coming in next year. If more teams enter the F1RWRS next year, there might be a shortage of drivers soon. Just my 10 cents.

That was my worry exactly. If the bar is set too high, there will be hardly any drivers available to pick from externally. As it stands right now, my only choice of line-up is Miko Fakkinen/Nobushige Fukuda. Considering the former has the highest random grip rating in the series, and the other will be a rookie, I don't see how I'm going to be even remotely competitive next year...
It means the gulf between F1RWRS regulars and rookies will become enormous, because no-one will want to get rid of their old drivers, because the rookies will have such a big random grip factor, and hence we are into a vicious cycle...

[AdrianSutil]

I know the drivers one salaried contracts might be too complex, but I'm only thinking about the new superlicense law coming in next year. If more teams enter the F1RWRS next year, there might be a shortage of drivers soon. Just my 10 cents.

That was my worry exactly. If the bar is set too high, there will be hardly any drivers available to pick from externally. As it stands right now, my only choice of line-up is Miko Fakkinen/Nobushige Fukuda. Considering the former has the highest random grip rating in the series, and the other will be a rookie, I don't see how I'm going to be even remotely competitive next year...
It means the gulf between F1RWRS regulars and rookies will become enormous, because no-one will want to get rid of their old drivers, because the rookies will have such a big random grip factor, and hence we are into a vicious cycle...

Also, as to what TMLW said, it's not a case of good drivers being in crap cars and vice versa. The bigger teams are going to hold onto their best drivers until it gets to a point that they need extra money (because not every team is guaranteed a competitive season every year). But it's the new teams that will struggle, especially as the only way they will be able to get drivers is from the small pool of rookie drivers who scraped a superlicense.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Also, as to what TMLW said, it's not a case of good drivers being in crap cars and vice versa. The bigger teams are going to hold onto their best drivers until it gets to a point that they need extra money (because not every team is guaranteed a competitive season every year). But it's the new teams that will struggle, especially as the only way they will be able to get drivers is from the small pool of rookie drivers who scraped a superlicense.

Although the rookies that come from the F2RWRS WILL have better base stats than any other rookie and any drivers that haven't been upgraded (e.g. the two MRT drivers)

[tristan1117]

Going straight to the Superlicense criteria, I think that drivers in the BigCar championship and Super Aguri's championship that don't already have a drive should also be eligible for a Reject License but maybe only for drivers in the top 5 or top 10 in those championships as Aerond sees fit.

Top 5 seems reasonable.

Can we include the "Grand Prix 2 Championship" as well?