The Formula 1 Rejects Teams Association (F1RTA) Thread

[takagi_for_the_win]

To be honest, I only have one quibble with the proposed (soon to be enforced) rule- at present it allows no facility for enforced driver changes, beyond the control of the team owner.

Example
In AR2.0 Restov Racing run one of my drivers, along with a second driver owned by A. N. Other. I also have 2 more drivers at different teams, thus taking me up to my quota of 3 for the series. Restov's reserve driver is owned by me, but (through my interpretation anyway) he is not part of the DEC rule, as he is not competing. Anyway, at one of the rounds Restov's driver owned by A. N. Other gets injured and has to miss a race as a result. For the one race where he's absent, can I put my reserve driver into the seat, meaning I go over the quota for a race? Or do I have to scrabble around and scab some two-bit replacement driver off somebody else so I don't go over the limit?

[DemocalypseNow]

To be honest, I only have one quibble with the proposed (soon to be enforced) rule- at present it allows no facility for enforced driver changes, beyond the control of the team owner.

Example
In AR2.0 Restov Racing run one of my drivers, along with a second driver owned by A. N. Other. I also have 2 more drivers at different teams, thus taking me up to my quota of 3 for the series. Restov's reserve driver is owned by me, but (through my interpretation anyway) he is not part of the DEC rule, as he is not competing. Anyway, at one of the rounds Restov's driver owned by A. N. Other gets injured and has to miss a race as a result. For the one race where he's absent, can I put my reserve driver into the seat, meaning I go over the quota for a race? Or do I have to scrabble around and scab some two-bit replacement driver off somebody else so I don't go over the limit?

As previously mentioned, and has also been the case throughout the history of DEC quotas, these rules don't apply to part-timers and replacements.


So, I'm starting to see the problem here. Nobody (bar one) disagrees with the rule. But everybody feels like they need to make a statement about democracy. Well, I see your complaints, but I won't be restarting anything. Why would I? The end result is still the same. I won't waste my own time trying to make a handful of people feel empowered.

This vote isn't the first time this subject has been debated on the forum. You want a say? Speak up when it matters, not when it's too late and everything is already set in motion.

[Salamander]

I'd just like to chip in that we tried being properly democratic before, and could never muster enough votes to pass anything ever, simply due to people not voting for one reason or another.

[AndreaModa]

It is completely irrelevant, completely, whether it's been tried before or not, whether anyone has said anything or not, or any other reason anyone wishes to cook up.

The fact is, in a rule change that will completely affect every single person who wishes to participate in a RWRS canon series, a vote was opened up explicitly for F1RWRS team members only, alongside a specific number of additional members, with the exclusion of everyone else. Are we seriously suggesting that members outside of those team owners in F1RWRS and the series' organisers, should form some sort of protest movement a la the suffragettes of the early 20th century, in order to achieve some form of inclusion in votes that impact their participation in a fantasy online racing roleplaying game? I mean really? Is this real?

You could say this is being blown out of the water, and to be frank, I'd be inclined to agree. But the reality is that we are now having proper organised votes for rule changes, which I'm fine with, but if we're going to maintain that sort of organisation then we need to follow our own rules. We either do votes on rule changes properly, or not at all. Not some half-baked vote that excludes half of the participants affected, for whatever reason you want to try and justify that sort of decision with. It's just not going to work.

[Klon]

Alright, before we make a complete turn for Overreaction Town, let's look at this rationally:

- biscione is right in that rerunning the vote with everyone involved would be pointless, given as there is strong reason to doubt a new vote involving everyone would result in a different result.
- AndreaModa is right in that this affects every ASMF user and therefore everyone should get a say in this, as far as voting is concerned.

So we should meet halfway, give everyone a vote and extend the deadline to, say, Thursday or Wednesday and change the format to a simple first-past-the-post voting. That way we don't waste significant time and get everyone involved.

[pasta_maldonado]

An All-Canon Issues thread should be created to deal with any topics that concern the whole canon in the future. For instance, the discussion about series' organisers entering their own drivers in their own series, or the discussion about double dutying. It'd save arguments like this.

[AndreaModa]

Yeah, just to be clear, I'm happy with the proposal of the 10% rule, and I'm not asking for the whole bloody thing to be re-run.

What I'm not happy with is how we seem to insist on doing things in an organised, precise fashion, only to then piss all over the supposed "rules" by cooking up a vote that excludes half of the people the result impacts, and then try and justify that decision with hopeless, silly reasons. It is the definition of hypocrisy.

[Hermann95]

I thinka a major problem with this vote is that many users in the ASMF may not even know what is going on right now because they don't check this thread.

[pi314159]

I don't think the vote needs to be restarted. I think it should be opened to every forum member who is active on the ASMF, and the thread title should be changed so that people who usually don't check this thread notice it.

And now about DEC limits. I think in general, the rules should be decided by the one who runs the series. However, I agree that having the same DEC rules for every series should be considered, since it would be confusing to have every series come up with its own rule.

I disagree with the 10% rule, as it is trying to fix an issue where there is none. The old DEC limit was introduced back when there were just three series around (F1,F2,F3RWRS), and it was really difficult to get involved. But now, there are 14 canon series set in 2016, 5 of which are F1RWRS and its feeder series. And despite most of them having no DEC limit, there weren't any problems with people flooding those series with drivers. Also, most drivers were able to find seats somewhere.

Also, there is a problem with fluctuating grid sizes, which usually happens in RICS or the Le Mans Cup, but also occured in F1RWRS last season. For example, if a series has 26 entries at the start of the season, everyone would be allowed to have 3 drivers entered there. But if one team drops out before mid-season, it wouldn't be considered a full-season entry any more, which means the DEC limit is reduced to 2.

____________________________________________________________________________
How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[ ] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[X] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

[DemocalypseNow]

Also, there is a problem with fluctuating grid sizes, which usually happens in RICS or the Le Mans Cup, but also occured in F1RWRS last season. For example, if a series has 26 entries at the start of the season, everyone would be allowed to have 3 drivers entered there. But if one team drops out before mid-season, it wouldn't be considered a full-season entry any more, which means the DEC limit is reduced to 2.

Well, this isn't true at all. The rule of F1RWRS is that all entries are full-time. It doesn't matter if one drops out because they are bankrupt, or they are kicked out for bringing the sport into disrepute, or whatever; this doesn't change there were 26 full-time entries registered. It stays the same. I imagine it should be the same way everywhere else too.

This rule is not being enforced like we're draconian here. There's a 107% rule approach here. You won't be expected to heed the rule if there was no possible way to know the situation was going to change. How can you predict a team will suddenly disappear at the end of the year? You can't, so you're not expected to react to it. If the season started with 26 full-time entries, then a 3 DEC limit is what will stay in place for that season.

Again, for this vote, nothing is changing. The ratio is 7:1 in favour. I won't open it up, because there is no point, as the end result would undoubtedly stay the same. But ok, I see what people are saying, and I have a plan for that. But let's not pretend that suddenly opening the floodgates today changes everything, because it changes nothing in this exact scenario. There is no anti-10% movement suddenly coming along to derail the thing. So this vote will stay as it is, because it already demonstrated a realistic representation of opinion across the board.

[dr-baker]

Also, since I can finally propose stuff officially, I'd also like to start a discussion (no vote needed yet) on another matter that also brushes with the ongoing debate. Namely, people running their own drivers and teams in their own series. As you may know I've been a rather vocal opponent of this practice for quite some time now. While I don't believe anyone's using it to cheat (and it would be impossible to prove it anyway), there's no arguing against that it's still taking away team and driver slots from other users.

I agree with this, and would like to see this discussed further (again, not that I think it's being abused, but just to ensure that nobody will).

[Ataxia]

Also, since I can finally propose stuff officially, I'd also like to start a discussion (no vote needed yet) on another matter that also brushes with the ongoing debate. Namely, people running their own drivers and teams in their own series. As you may know I've been a rather vocal opponent of this practice for quite some time now. While I don't believe anyone's using it to cheat (and it would be impossible to prove it anyway), there's no arguing against that it's still taking away team and driver slots from other users.

I agree with this, and would like to see this discussed further (again, not that I think it's being abused, but just to ensure that nobody will).

It's not so much of a problem for you, Nuppiz, since AR3.5 pretty much is on the same tier as F2RWRS and thus gives you an alternative route. However, since I run the basement series, if running a driver in your own series is verboten then that means that I'd have to jump straight into F3 or AR3.5 which would come at having reduced performance compared to any driver with AR2.0 experience. I'd back a restriction though, certainly.

I definitely agree on the team front though.

[Nuppiz]

Hmm yes, so perhaps not a total ban on drivers owned by series owners... maybe a limit on each category based on their importance? With lower categories having more "slots" due to their special nature?

[DanielPT]

As I only check this thread from time to time (as it is very time consuming and real life tightens its grip on me), it would be nice that the thread name would be extended with something on the lines of "voting ongoing" whenever there is a voting for something going on.

DanielPT
Sunshine
How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[ ] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[X] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

[DemocalypseNow]

As I only check this thread from time to time (as it is very time consuming and real life tightens its grip on me), it would be nice that the thread name would be extended with something on the lines of "voting ongoing" whenever there is a voting for something going on.

Well, I am inclined to agree, but the original post belongs to Wizzie, and the original post dictates the thread title shown in the main page. Moderators can change this - but I am not one of them.

[pasta_maldonado]

As I only check this thread from time to time (as it is very time consuming and real life tightens its grip on me), it would be nice that the thread name would be extended with something on the lines of "voting ongoing" whenever there is a voting for something going on.

Well, I am inclined to agree, but the original post belongs to Wizzie, and the original post dictates the thread title shown in the main page. Moderators can change this - but I am not one of them.

Well, if that is the case, provided changing the title is a good idea, each new F1RTA President should start his own thread, with the previous one being consigned to the "Flat Out, Flat Broke" Memorial Forum.

[Salamander]

As I only check this thread from time to time (as it is very time consuming and real life tightens its grip on me), it would be nice that the thread name would be extended with something on the lines of "voting ongoing" whenever there is a voting for something going on.

Well, I am inclined to agree, but the original post belongs to Wizzie, and the original post dictates the thread title shown in the main page. Moderators can change this - but I am not one of them.

Oh right, I'm a moderator now. I should probably not forget that.

[Ataxia]

With Fusion Motorsports' late entry to the F1RWRS grid, this is an official request to join the F1RTA ranks.

[DemocalypseNow]

With Fusion Motorsports' late entry to the F1RWRS grid, this is an official request to join the F1RTA ranks.

Request granted. Welcome to the F1RTA!

2017 Member List
Biscione [Voeckler GPE]
Pasta [Plus One Kingfisher]
Salamander [Gauthier]
Aerospeed [Arrowtech]
tommykl [Gillet]
FMecha [Mecha]
DanielPT [Sunshine]
MinardiFan [Simpson]
Shizuka [Revolution]
Phoenix [Aeroracing]
Wizzie [MRT]
SuperAguri [Kamaha]
AndreaModa [Jones]
Nuppiz [NRE]
dr-baker [Foxdale]
Ataxia [Fusion]
TMLW [HRT]
RonDenisDeletraz [Autodynamics]

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Autodynamics has rejoined the F1RTA, just making it official

[DemocalypseNow]

Hi everyone,

Off-season has quietened down a bit, but there's an issue to discuss. To be clear, nothing will be done until 2018 at the earliest;

The F1RWRS Commish wants a pay driver cap...no, not the paying out credits per season cap, rather, a cap on how successful a driver can be before they stop paying anything at all. A forced conversion to standard status after X success, if you will.

Is this idea supported at all? For the record, as Voeckler team principal, I don't like it, regardless of how 'success' is defined in such a rule, but we'll see what everyone else has to say.

[pasta_maldonado]

No, I dont like this rule at all. Who says a pay driver has to be rubbish? This looks like another method of forcing teams into not running pay drivers.

[Shizuka]

No, I dont like this rule at all. Who says a pay driver has to be ribbish? This looks like another method of forcing teams into not running pay drivers.

This. Totally this.

[FMecha]

No, I dont like this rule at all. Who says a pay driver has to be ribbish? This looks like another method of forcing teams into not running pay drivers.

This. Totally this.

SO MUCH THIS

Yes, that was serious. In fact that rule would only embarrass and harass poor (financially and figuratively) backmarkers.

[DemocalypseNow]

No, I dont like this rule at all. Who says a pay driver has to be ribbish? This looks like another method of forcing teams into not running pay drivers.

This. Totally this.

SO MUCH THIS

Yes, that was serious. In fact that rule would only embarrass and harass poor (financially and figuratively) backmarkers.

To be fair, the rule change doesn't really affect backmarkers. In fact, the original proposed amounts for such a system that I've seen would, at this point in time, only force the conversion of one current pay driver to a standard driver - Ron Mignolet. I know for a fact Jones Racing were seriously considering signing him if I'd not renewed his deal, and I imagine most of the grid would be chasing his signature as well - so, realistically, he was never going to end up with a backmarker team again.

That is going on a system where 50 career points and/or a Top 5 in the WDC is the trigger point. And I believe Mignolet is the only pay-driver to ever have achieved this feat so far in F1RWRS. Even if the rule was introduced today, I expect the next drivers likely to be in line (Fredo Mestolio, Jean-Luc Schiller, David Neuberg, Alessandro Lucarelli) would take until 2019-2020 before taking effect.

It doesn't change my opinion on not wishing the rule to be made official, but we should at least get the facts straight when discussing this.

[AndreaModa]

As someone, as Biscione says, who would have attempted to maximise this avenue myself, I feel this is something that should be implemented. As has been pointed out, this isn't a "shafting the little teams" rule because those teams won't enjoy the same level as success as a top team, hence why they need the pay drivers. I have no problem with that and this rule proposal changes nothing about that. It's addressing the gross manipulation of pay driver income to maintain a team's position at the top of the tree.

Now any team, mine included, that wants to remain at the top needs to consider its income to keep up developments, build new chassis, etc. For me, that would have come from hiring a pay driver but I felt the returns were too small over a whole season now that the pay driver payout is metered so the smallest teams get the most and the top teams the least. So I've instead opted to back the F2RWRS champion and collect 200cr that way, in the same way I hired 2014 runner-up Vantini and got the credit reward for that for 2015. But realistically I could have kept Mestolio on, hired someone like Ben Fleet and attempted to max out my upgrades and chassis over the season, which is precisely what we don't want! How on earth is a small team like Revolution for example ever hope to challenge at the front if the top teams are continually raking in pay driver money alongside the 5cr per point and other bonuses they get on the way, at the end of the season?

What this rule will do is stop a top team from running one (or two) pay drivers whilst still being successful and maintaining a steady income of credits. If I was the owner of a small team stuck in pre-qualifying I'd be getting a flight over to Madrid and demanding Aerond make this compulsory right now! I can't honestly see why anyone aside from the top teams who are looking to exploit this would oppose it! It's a no-brainer!

[FMecha]

As someone, as Biscione says, who would have attempted to maximise this avenue myself, I feel this is something that should be implemented. As has been pointed out, this isn't a "shafting the little teams" rule because those teams won't enjoy the same level as success as a top team, hence why they need the pay drivers. I have no problem with that and this rule proposal changes nothing about that. It's addressing the gross manipulation of pay driver income to maintain a team's position at the top of the tree.

Now any team, mine included, that wants to remain at the top needs to consider its income to keep up developments, build new chassis, etc. For me, that would have come from hiring a pay driver but I felt the returns were too small over a whole season now that the pay driver payout is metered so the smallest teams get the most and the top teams the least. So I've instead opted to back the F2RWRS champion and collect 200cr that way, in the same way I hired 2014 runner-up Vantini and got the credit reward for that for 2015. But realistically I could have kept Mestolio on, hired someone like Ben Fleet and attempted to max out my upgrades and chassis over the season, which is precisely what we don't want! How on earth is a small team like Revolution for example ever hope to challenge at the front if the top teams are continually raking in pay driver money alongside the 5cr per point and other bonuses they get on the way, at the end of the season?

What this rule will do is stop a top team from running one (or two) pay drivers whilst still being successful and maintaining a steady income of credits. If I was the owner of a small team stuck in pre-qualifying I'd be getting a flight over to Madrid and demanding Aerond make this compulsory right now! I can't honestly see why anyone aside from the top teams who are looking to exploit this would oppose it! It's a no-brainer!

It makes sense now, although I've personally been looking for quick paydrivers, which initially worried me at first.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

I'm completely for this rule. It is actually better for little teams because it means the big teams now have to choose between the best performance and a cash boost, thus equalising the playing field slightly. Besides the suggested threshold is quite high, so this wouldn't be as much of a burden on those small teams.

[DemocalypseNow]

It makes sense now, although I've personally been looking for quick paydrivers, which initially worried me at first.

Let's be honest, a driver that can make the Top 5 in WDC is not going to move to a backmarker team in a million years. Now the likes of Mignolet, Mestolio, et al have climbed all the way to the top of the ladder they probably don't plan to switch all the way to the back of the grid again.

At the end of the day, all this rule will do is increase the turnover of drivers in the sport, and that's all. If a pay driver's money expires? Dump him and get another one. And so on and so forth. People can set up their driver academies to pump out decent enough pay drivers all day long if they need to. It won't make a real difference.

[Ataxia]

The one question I have is this; would the driver's funds expire as soon as he reaches 50 points, or would they expire at the end of that season? The latter seems more fair to me, especially if the team's managed to fill their driver quota for the year.

[FMecha]

It makes sense now, although I've personally been looking for quick paydrivers, which initially worried me at first.

Let's be honest, a driver that can make the Top 5 in WDC is not going to move to a backmarker team in a million years. Now the likes of Mignolet, Mestolio, et al have climbed all the way to the top of the ladder they probably don't plan to switch all the way to the back of the grid again.

At the end of the day, all this rule will do is increase the turnover of drivers in the sport, and that's all. If a pay driver's money expires? Dump him and get another one. And so on and so forth. People can set up their driver academies to pump out decent enough pay drivers all day long if they need to. It won't make a real difference.

1. I know. Top pay drivers are mainly there to serve top teams.

2. So basically:

Team X hires Driver A, which is a top pay driver. When his pay-drivership is revoked, Team X fires him in favor of Driver B, which is also a pay driver. And so on, rinse, lather, repeat, stack development money.

The "pay driver money spending deadline" rule does nothing, because they still keep a small amount of the pay-driver money in the end, plus what teams do with the required spending? Developing their machines. And that rule proved harmful to backmarker teams instead (hence our poll to cut down engine prices).

It just shows how awful the F1RWRS credit system is now. Either it needs a remake or scrapping, but correct me if I am wrong.

[dr-baker]

It just shows how awful the F1RWRS credit system is now. Either it needs a remake or scrapping, but correct me if I am wrong.

[old man mode]It was so much simpler and easier in the good old days of 2010-2013...[/old man mode]

[AndreaModa]

At the end of the day, all this rule will do is increase the turnover of drivers in the sport, and that's all. If a pay driver's money expires? Dump him and get another one. And so on and so forth. People can set up their driver academies to pump out decent enough pay drivers all day long if they need to. It won't make a real difference.

Is this such a bad thing though? The last thing we want is a handful of ageing pay drivers switching seats every season or two and never really being ditched because of the cash they bring in. It's been identified previously that the number of rookies being introduced into the sport is falling, and having a select bunch of pay drivers hogging seats isn't going to help that at all.

Secondly, with the random stats pay drivers get, it's nigh on impossible to keep churning them out successfully. Baker has been lucky with this but by and large the pay drivers have all largely been crap and unpredictable when it comes to form, which is exactly how they should be if we're trying to live up to the archetypal pay driver of the mid 90s a la Delatraz, Lavaggi, etc.

2. So basically:

Team X hires Driver A, which is a top pay driver. When his pay-drivership is revoked, Team X fires him in favor of Driver B, which is also a pay driver. And so on, rinse, lather, repeat, stack development money.

The "pay driver money spending deadline" rule does nothing, because they still keep a small amount of the pay-driver money in the end, plus what teams do with the required spending? Developing their machines. And that rule proved harmful to backmarker teams instead (hence our poll to cut down engine prices).

It just shows how awful the F1RWRS credit system is now. Either it needs a remake or scrapping, but correct me if I am wrong.

First of all you have the in-season driver limit to prevent people abusing this. Secondly there aren't anything like enough pay drivers coming into the series to justify keeping that tactic up. All of the top pay drivers have been around a while now, none of the new ones have been any good and would a top team take a risk on a crap driver just to pocket a few extra credits? I know I wouldn't! The fact is you earn far far more for on-track success if you're a top team than you do from pay driver credits so the system isn't flawed. If we didn't have the metered payouts so the top teams get the least from pay drivers then it would be broken, but that mechanism stops them from raking in too much anyway, regardless of whether you blatantly try and exploit the system like Wizzie or try and supplement your income like I did with Mestolio or Biscione using Mignolet.

[FMecha]

First of all you have the in-season driver limit to prevent people abusing this. Secondly there aren't anything like enough pay drivers coming into the series to justify keeping that tactic up. All of the top pay drivers have been around a while now, none of the new ones have been any good and would a top team take a risk on a crap driver just to pocket a few extra credits? I know I wouldn't! The fact is you earn far far more for on-track success if you're a top team than you do from pay driver credits so the system isn't flawed. If we didn't have the metered payouts so the top teams get the least from pay drivers then it would be broken, but that mechanism stops them from raking in too much anyway, regardless of whether you blatantly try and exploit the system like Wizzie or try and supplement your income like I did with Mestolio or Biscione using Mignolet.

"First of all you have the in-season driver limit to prevent people abusing this" - Yes I know, but what I mean by my situation is on in off-seasonal basis. If the driver is declared no longer a pay-driver at the end of the season, or during off-season he would be dumped instantly by a pay-driver-hungry team, making the in-season driver limit moot-ish.

"would a top team take a risk on a crap driver just to pocket a few extra credits? I know I wouldn't!" - We know.

previously that the number of rookies being introduced into the sport is falling

I blame the explosion of the canon.

[Ataxia]

All that will happen is that the paydrivers at top teams will get to around 40-49 points in their lifetime score, get dumped, and then end up at a pre-qualifying team.

previously that the number of rookies being introduced into the sport is falling

I blame the explosion of the canon.

Mecha, that's rubbish. If anything, now we've got the LMC clearing out all the old names, F1RWRS is getting a healthy helping of new blood. It's also due to the high RGR that rookie drivers are famed for getting. Now we've got AR3.5 on a clear par with F2RWRS, there's plenty of feeder series action going on.

[FMecha]

All that will happen is that the paydrivers at top teams will get to around 40-49 points in their lifetime score, get dumped, and then end up at a pre-qualifying team.

In theory, yes, that could happen.

previously that the number of rookies being introduced into the sport is falling

I blame the explosion of the canon.

Mecha, that's rubbish. If anything, now we've got the LMC clearing out all the old names, F1RWRS is getting a healthy helping of new blood. It's also due to the high RGR that rookie drivers are famed for getting. Now we've got AR3.5 on a clear par with F2RWRS, there's plenty of feeder series action going on.

I'll retract that.

[Shizuka]

[old man mode]It was so much simpler and easier in the good old days of 2010-2013...[/old man mode]

...when my driver was in your team.
Pepperidge Farm remembers

[dr-baker]

[old man mode]It was so much simpler and easier in the good old days of 2010-2013...[/old man mode]

...when my driver was in your team.
Pepperidge Farm remembers

No idea what Pepperidge Farm is, but yes, you were a great addition to my team!

[Shizuka]

No idea what Pepperidge Farm is, but yes, you were a great addition to my team!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXUxLqqmhNs this might help

[dr-baker]

No idea what Pepperidge Farm is, but yes, you were a great addition to my team!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXUxLqqmhNs this might help

For some reason, that advert made me think of Werther's Originals!