Argentine Government trying to host 2013 GP

[Popi_Larrauri]

As it goes on this journal, and it's a very reasonable one, there are talks with Ecclestone to host a GP in the city of Mar del Plata for three years.... beginning no less than in 2013.

You can have the spanish version here (sorry, but I don't have the time to translate the proper way: http://www.ambito.com/noticia.asp?id=628494

First of all I'm sad to say that Mar del Plata it's not the perfect city for the glamour needed nowadays to host a GP. Yes, it's a popular tourist post but nothing earth shattering by a light year compared with last new circuits.

Second, the article says it won't be hosted by Buenos Aires due to thre reasons: 1) Galves is in no condition, which is right because it's an awful place, and the track itself just wouldn't do justice to the event. 2) My wife is practicing for his driving license there because it's legal to do it only there. And, unless you are Jos Verstappen, you should run away from there, and fast. 3) At Buenos Aires there's a advertising tobacco banning, which shouldn't on Mar del Plata.

Third: there an on going fight which have surpassed any prediction between Bs As governor and the national government (disclaimer: I told that shouldn't be a problem with San Luis Potrero de los Funes, which is another thing).

Fourth: How on earth will they go to produce out of nothing a serious track with all the facilities needed i don't get it.

Fifth and most important: Really, we could spend money in any other thing right now.

There. I had my rant. Debunk it, call the conspiracy theorists or start diagramming circuits based on Google Earth. By the way, It would come after Sao Paolo, so they have the messianic idea to enter as the final round, no less. Do the follow up. I'm gonna break my self a couple of fingers with my car door.

[Captain Hammer]

Fourth: How on earth will they go to produce out of nothing a serious track with all the facilities needed i don't get it.

It is my understanding that the race would take place on a street circuit in Mar del Plata. In this case, the proper facilities could reasonably be built in eighteen months. New Jersey is managing it just fine.

As for producing a serious circuit, it shouldn't be too difficult; a quick check of satellite photos reveals as much. There are a lot of wide roads in the city, and although most of it is built on a grid pattern, there is some good stuff down by the beach (though Paseo Jesus de Galindez would probably need to be widened): http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5348279

[eytl]

I told that shouldn't be a problem with San Luis Potrero de los Funes, which is another thing).

When I saw the news about a potential Argentine GP, I was desperately hoping it would be at Potrero de los Funes.

That would simply be awesome - no other word for it.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I told that shouldn't be a problem with San Luis Potrero de los Funes, which is another thing).

When I saw the news about a potential Argentine GP, I was desperately hoping it would be at Potrero de los Funes.

That would simply be awesome - no other word for it.

As would a United States GP at Road America for that matter

[VirtuaMcPolygon]

So it's would obviously be called the

'FIA ARA General Belgrano Grand Prix Of Argentina' ?

[dr-baker]

And here is the story on Autosport for those of you who, like me, cannot speak Spanish.

[CoopsII]

The Argie GP in the nineties was always a pretty good one, it'll be great if we get to go back (unarmed and without aircraft carriers).

[mario]

I told that shouldn't be a problem with San Luis Potrero de los Funes, which is another thing).

When I saw the news about a potential Argentine GP, I was desperately hoping it would be at Potrero de los Funes.

That would simply be awesome - no other word for it.

It would be, but unfortunately the Potrero de los Funes circuit does not, and is unlikely to ever have, a Grade 1 license to hold a race because the crash protection measures are inadequate.

So it's would obviously be called the

'FIA ARA General Belgrano Grand Prix Of Argentina' ?

Reputedly there was an attempt to rename Argentina's premier division of football after General Belgrano, although FIFA has indicated that they would bring sanctions against the Argentine Football Association (AFA) for what they would see as a breach of their ban on politicising the sport. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/1 ... CK20120214
So, if the Automovil Club Argentino were pushed to make a reference to Belgrano (say, by naming the race after him), the FIA would similarly come down on them very harshly - they took fairly strict action against Turkey when they used the Turkish GP as a platform to promote their claim to Northern Cyprus by fining their national motorsport body. An overtly political statement like that might draw an even stronger rebuke from the FIA - perhaps even seeing Argentina stripped of the race, as it would be a clear breach of their agreement not to politicise the event - so it would almost certainly backfire quite heavily.

Leaving aside that debate, another question would be how on earth this is going to fit onto an already crowded calendar? There are already 18 circuits with contracts ostensibly confirmed for 2013 - although that might drop depending on whether a) Valencia and Barcelona alternate b) whether or not Bahrain remains on the calendar and c) whether the current legal arguments detail construction of the Circuit of the Americas. Even so, 2014 will see yet more circuits ostensibly joining - Sochi and New Jersey are already confirmed - at a time when the teams are pressing Bernie to stop expanding the calendar as it is becoming a logistical nightmare - not to mention that the pit crews are increasingly unhappy about the rising workload.
It also seems bizarre that, as Popi_Larrauri points out, that various governments would be so eager to throw absurd amounts of cash at Bernie at a time when governments are increasingly under pressure to cut spending. Bernie and FOM might be criticised for charging the fees they do, but if there are governments around the world queueing up to thrust the cash into Bernie's hands, why should he turn - or CVC for that matter - turn them down?

[VirtuaMcPolygon]

Kidding aside on the name. (which i do believe they will do something.)

Is it in the best interest to F1 to go to a country thats currently bankrupt?

[DanielPT]

The Argie GP in the nineties was always a pretty good one, it'll be great if we get to go back (unarmed and without aircraft carriers).

Not that there are any aircraft carriers around to take...

[Klon]

Is it in the best interest to F1 to go to a country thats currently bankrupt?

I want a Greek Grand Prix and I want it now.

[dr-baker]

Is it in the best interest to F1 to go to a country thats currently bankrupt?

I want a Greek Grand Prix and I want it now.

How about moving to Korean GP to Pyongyang? Oh wait, that's culturelly bankrupt....

[Ferrim]

Is it in the best interest to F1 to go to a country thats currently bankrupt?

Since when is Argentina bankrupt?

[Popi_Larrauri]

I told that shouldn't be a problem with San Luis Potrero de los Funes, which is another thing).

When I saw the news about a potential Argentine GP, I was desperately hoping it would be at Potrero de los Funes.

That would simply be awesome - no other word for it.

Of course, it would have been the closest to host a GP on Mars surface... with water, mind you.


PS: One of San Luis government "achievements" are WiFi spots on the provincial roads, factI I could check it by my self, briefly, as I passed alongisdde one of those (didn't checked If I could have connected, but who cares). So: Mars surface with facebook. It rocks, dude!

PS2: DiMontezemelo, Luca:
@FelipeMassa, @AlonsoF is faster than you, gotcha? #slowfood_movement

[DemocalypseNow]

If this happens, expect the UK Government to retaliate by hosting the first ever Commonwealth GP using a street circut on the Falkland Islands...

[Popi_Larrauri]

Is it in the best interest to F1 to go to a country thats currently bankrupt?

Since when is Argentina bankrupt?

Second that. There are some incoming issues, but the financial system is relatively on good shape.

In fact, it gave the government the luxury of pumping up the inner consumtion, which fueled the economy in the darkest moments of local crisis (2002-2005), world financial crisis (2008) and the spoils of that one (2011) mostly unscathed.

Despite the fact that some numbers are tweaked (accusation that could be easly applied to U.S. on inflation, by the way), and part of the growth is rather an illusion, a big step forward have been made in those 11 years or so.

That had a cost, and this year would nice if they start closing the sink on expenditure. The matter that thay could be unable to pay the political price for doing it is another entirely different matter. But, technically speaking, it would be quite easier and quite less painful than, lets say, Greece o Spain, who have already made a big effort in doing so already.

[Popi_Larrauri]

The Argie GP in the nineties was always a pretty good one, it'll be great if we get to go back (unarmed and without aircraft carriers).

Kidding aside on the name. (which i do believe they will do something.)

If this happens, expect the UK Government to retaliate by hosting the first ever Commonwealth GP using a street circut on the Falkland Islands...

Guys... really... Do you really want to bring this subject? Do we really believe something positive will arise with it?

Again?




Here?


PS: By the way, Carrier sucks. Long live to Surrey!

PS: And even more, I could crack a joke on lost communication and BBSs.... But you are waaaay to young to catch it

[jackanderton]

It'd be nice if people could talk about Argentina without endlessly bringing up the Falklands. No-one goes around mentioning Germany in relation to the world wars anymore, indeed that whole thing was parodied quite well in the 1970s.

Argentina is currently run by a progressive and successful centre-left government who saved their country from going bust, a situation brought about by a succession of tinpot right-wingers who in true South American fascist stylee, starved the populace while living absurd lives of luxury. It's a much different place these days.

[mario]

It'd be nice if people could talk about Argentina without endlessly bringing up the Falklands. No-one goes around mentioning Germany in relation to the world wars anymore, indeed that whole thing was parodied quite well in the 1970s.

Unless you are talking about Jeremy Clarkson, given that he has built a career on insulting people...

On a serious note, part of the problem with Anglo-Argentine relations is that the Falkland Islands can be used as a cheap rallying tool for both sides to stir up nationalistic feeling and support for the leading parties as a way of defending themselves against internal criticism about their economic and social policies, such that the issue of their ownership has an unusually large bearing on Anglo-Argentine relations (plus the fact that the anniversary of the Falklands conflict is this year means that the conflict has risen in prominence).
Of course, neither side is probably ever going to actually risk international arbitration on the matter in case their claim to the islands were voided, so both sides will rattle sabres and play up the issue for domestic consumption, but realistically the only action that either side will take will be diplomatic bickering, and perhaps minor economic sanctions.

Anyway, back to the original topic of this thread (and I would rather that we stick to that instead), and the feasibility of the proposals - as Captain Hammer predicted, the venue is going to be a street circuit, though the grid system for the streets means that there isn't exactly much to work with in terms of the layout. Speaking of which, has it been announced yet who is going to design the circuit? Will it be another Tilke circuit?

And to return to my earlier point, at what cost is this circuit going to come - both financially and in terms of which circuit might lose its contract? Spa's contract is up for renewal in 2013 (although we will probably see that alternating with Paul Ricard), whilst Singapore is probably reasonably secure as the regional authorities are continuing to pay the bills (and it still seems to be reasonably popular despite some of the criticisms levelled at the venue).
If there is pressure not to extend the calendar, Bernie might cut another circuit off the list - could, therefore, we see Suzuka being booted off the calendar? Suzuka's contract expires this year, and Honda is not in great financial shape (their profits are taking a hammering due to an overvalued yen whilst Nissan has been rapidly eating into their share of the US car market). Might we, therefore, see Honda under pressure to axe the race, or could they refuse the latest offer from Bernie if his terms prove to be too much?

[Ferrim]

On a serious note, part of the problem with Anglo-Argentine relations is that the Falkland Islands can be used as a cheap rallying tool for both sides to stir up nationalistic feeling and support for the leading parties as a way of defending themselves against internal criticism about their economic and social policies, such that the issue of their ownership has an unusually large bearing on Anglo-Argentine relations (plus the fact that the anniversary of the Falklands conflict is this year means that the conflict has risen in prominence).

Add to that a conservative (ie. generally more worried about "patriotic" issues) British government troubled by an economic crisis, like in 1982, and an Argentinian government also known for its "patriotic", populist approach, and it's understandable that both sides have been increasingly vocal on the matter.

While I don't rate very highly Argentina's current government under Cristina Fernández, the country's bankruptcy was over a decade ago now and the current overall situation of the country is rather positive. Whether the public finances are sustainable in the long run is a different matter, but one that makes me wonder if holding a GP in the streets of a coastal city is a good way to spend money (Valencia, I'm looking at you!).

[VirtuaMcPolygon]

It'd be nice if people could talk about Argentina without endlessly bringing up the Falklands. No-one goes around mentioning Germany in relation to the world wars anymore, indeed that whole thing was parodied quite well in the 1970s.

Argentina is currently run by a progressive and successful centre-left government who saved their country from going bust, a situation brought about by a succession of tinpot right-wingers who in true South American fascist stylee, starved the populace while living absurd lives of luxury. It's a much different place these days.

Well ok the term bankrupt was a tad strong. Corruption is rife thou within the higher echelons of power thou within argentina. If you follow how loopy Cristina Fernández de Kirchner is it wouldn't surprise me she would block any english teams to enter the country to race.

Regarding the falklands ref. It is relevant. I find it funny this is coming out during the 30 years anniversary . And they are stirring it all up again trying to get all of south america to block the use of UK products. I agree politics should never be in sport but with a global brand as big as F1 you will always get political overtones.

Regardless of how much fun it would be to race in argentina it's just to risky. We already had one GP cancelled last year through politics. It's just tempting fate

[P_Friesacher]

I must confess I never imagned Argentina would be such a contentious issue...

And for a sport that runs in Bahrain, China, Abu Dhabi, Spain (twice, probably), India, Hungary, and probably soon in Russia to worry that Argentina might be too risky seems a bit absurd.

And that Argenina might pay millions of Dollars to F1 for a race and then not to allow "any English teams" to run would be extremely "surprising", at least to me.

[Shadaza]

Argentina is as stable a place as any.

Considering the other countries the F1 circus visits it is quite a good location, politically one of the best on the entire American continent (minus Canada)

[VirtuaMcPolygon]

And for a sport that runs in Bahrain, China, Abu Dhabi, Spain (twice, probably), India, Hungary, and probably soon in Russia to worry that Argentina might be too risky seems a bit absurd.

i would have said the same thing 2 years ago about the Bahrain GP being cancelled. Slightly Absurd.


If they do find and pump oil. Which would be around about next season. It really wouldn't surprise me they would make a stance of not letting UK teams in for what ever reason. What are the FIA going to do. Call the race off because of a trade conflict between two countries. And they could say McLaren is flying the flag for the best of british engineering around the world to promote trade. Or what ever noddy reason they would like to make up.

Also if you watched how mental their case was in front of the UN not long back, when they we're bleating on about how from the falklands we could send eurofighters to the brazilian rain forest to drop bombs. You suddenly realise your not dealing with a government that isn't playing with a full pack of cards.

:-/

[Popi_Larrauri]

And for a sport that runs in Bahrain, China, Abu Dhabi, Spain (twice, probably), India, Hungary, and probably soon in Russia to worry that Argentina might be too risky seems a bit absurd.

i would have said the same thing 2 years ago about the Bahrain GP being cancelled. Slightly Absurd.


If they do find and pump oil. Which would be around about next season. It really wouldn't surprise me they would make a stance of not letting UK teams in for what ever reason. What are the FIA going to do. Call the race off because of a trade conflict between two countries. And they could say McLaren is flying the flag for the best of british engineering around the world to promote trade. Or what ever noddy reason they would like to make up.

Also if you watched how mental their case was in front of the UN not long back, when they we're bleating on about how from the falklands we could send eurofighters to the brazilian rain forest to drop bombs. You suddenly realise your not dealing with a government that isn't playing with a full pack of cards.

:-/

Well, anything can happen. I'll tell you what really not wanted to do (speak about this too much) just because what you says may need some clarification.

Argentina is a corrupt country, indeed, it's a serious problem, and we have to deal with it every day. Higher echelons and middones are a problem. But in all honesty, not much nor less than other countries, and more to the point, countries which actually are about to host a GP (pick your few).

Personally, I do not care much about a GP here. On the contrary, I do not want it. On another thread there was a discussion about "how FIA dare to host GP's on countries with dictatorships". I think the best answer is "Yeah, deplet them from every dollar they have letting them "beg" (you can put your own euphemism here) for the right to show the world something nobody needs to have clarified: That they are or they are not a banana republic, or a dictatorship, because they could host a GP". Thus, we are a minute closer to their defeat.

Being said that, in a strange case of fandom with nimbysm, I personally choose they destroy another economy, being Argentina a third world country with a more or less practical democracy whch have it's own shades of gray depending who you ask.

Cristina Fernandez is erratic (mostly from mouth outwards), conceded, and a madness around not allowing english teams would be actually 0.1% possible (I repeat, after I saw U.S. about default in 2011, Khadafi crying for his life in a sewer tube like a baby, bankers asking for walfare state for banks (and getting it), I believe any forecast worth 10 days at most EVERYWHERE).

Mind that the Dakkar rally was held here for (I don't recall right now) three or four years by now. UK teams, as far as I know, have raced, and I heard of no particular case of corruption damaging the competition, at any level. An F1 GP would be no diference, with the excepction, maybe, of the appearence of a F1 paydriver on the lineup next year.

As for the Falklands goes (please, don't let me express my opinion, its boring, nihilistic, and was interpreted badly from both sides easily. Specially on these days. To that extension goes my experiencie talking about the subject) I beg this salvo fire from both sides will dessapear as soon as this "unforgetable anniversary" ends. both sides have greater an inmediate problems, as other guys clearly claim, and in general the population have no interest in it at all.

[dr-baker]

All this talk about the Falklands (or las Malvinas if you're Argentinian ) is simly reminding me that I will be 30 this summer. I'm getting old... Same age as Prince William, ET, Channel 4 and The Snowman.

[DemocalypseNow]

Oh shite, I think I just doomed this thread.

[CoopsII]

It'd be nice if people could talk about Argentina without endlessly bringing up the Falklands.

I remember reading a funny article about the 1995 Argentine GP (the first since, well, you know) and in the press office the German journos were winding up both their British and Argentines colleagues with the mantra "Dont Mention the War!"

In all honesty, while we had an Argentine GP I dont remember any references to the conflict other than that(it was a conflict not a war ). Its unfortunate that this has arisen while tensions are mounting, though.

[dr-baker]

This seems to be a variation on Godwin's Law - how to talk about Anglo-Argentinian relations without mentioning the Falklands...

[Waris]

Mind that the Dakkar rally was held here for (I don't recall right now) three or four years by now. UK teams, as far as I know, have raced, and I heard of no particular case of corruption damaging the competition, at any level. An F1 GP would be no diference, with the excepction, maybe, of the appearence of a F1 paydriver on the lineup next year.

Would that mean the 'return' of JOSÉ MARÍA LÓPEZ? That would be AWESOME(ly rejectful)!!

[Captain Hammer]

Back onto the actual topic, here is the proposed circuit:



It was done in 2009 when Bernie first suggested a race in Mar del Plata, so things might have changed since then.

[Popi_Larrauri]

Mind that the Dakkar rally was held here for (I don't recall right now) three or four years by now. UK teams, as far as I know, have raced, and I heard of no particular case of corruption damaging the competition, at any level. An F1 GP would be no diference, with the excepction, maybe, of the appearence of a F1 paydriver on the lineup next year.

Would that mean the 'return' of JOSÉ MARÍA LÓPEZ? That would be AWESOME(ly rejectful)!!

Indeed, my friend. But I guess he is far (if he ever was back in 2010) in the proper form any more.

[Popi_Larrauri]

Back onto the actual topic, here is the proposed circuit:



It was done in 2009 when Bernie first suggested a race in Mar del Plata, so things might have changed since then.

Mmhhh. Not that awful. The source (at least where you got it from) it's a rock & roll radio, not very reliable for F1 issues, but don't now where they got it. Maybe from FIA itself, who knows.

The Lollipop section is too small for F1 cars, And I can't see a way to make it wider. If you look it in Google Earth, Still modifications could be applied, but for the sake of speed and for the fact that gives nothing to the race rather aside from a forced procession in the event a HRT would about to be holding ten cars behind, i should remove entirely. Not even technically: F1 cars wasting a full second at 45 km/h proves absolutely nothing.

Still needs money, the same amount needed for an upgrade in Potrero, maybe. But closer to Bs As airport and easier access to facilities.

EDIT: Too much 120°-170° corners for my taste, by the way.

[sswishbone]

That design has too many long straights into tight hairpins, it's like china and malaysia in that respect, still the straights are good enough to get DRS so it could work

[Captain Hammer]

That design has too many long straights into tight hairpins

Which all go together to create a circuit that demands very low downforce level - probably even lower than Monza.

It brings a bit more variety to the calendar.

[AndreaModa]

That design has too many long straights into tight hairpins

Which all go together to create a circuit that demands very low downforce level - probably even lower than Monza.

It brings a bit more variety to the calendar.

And that is something I'd love to see. Too many circuits are the same as each other these days. Time for a bit of variety.

[sswishbone]

thing is it looks like there are some high-speed chicanes so will still need at least medium downforce, so not sure it will work. anyway for variety look at Austin, that track looks like it could be killer

[Captain Hammer]

Nope. Those chicanes are relatively low-speed. And there's only really one or two of them. The majority of the circuit is long straights and tight corners. There's only really one high-speed turn - the last, running onto the breakwater - but Monza has the Curva Grande, which can be taken flat with low downforce.

[WeirdKerr]

looking at that circuit it looks good....

[Popi_Larrauri]

First draft: 1.49.00... aboard a Hispania F112 (so top times should de around 1.41.00 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... CEsI&gl=US

How accurate actually it is it’s debatable, specially the part with grass.

PS: I Insist, the lollypop is totally unnecessary.