Beat Tilke at his own game

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Sep 2009, 07:27

You know what I'm growing tired of?

People criticising Hermann Tilke.

More to the point, I'm sick of people criticising Hermann Tilke without offering any alternatives. The 2010 calendar has been relesaed, and I see that the proposed circuit for South Korea has been met with the most lukewarm of responses. And of course, it's not the first time. But what really rubs me the wrong way is that people criticise what he does but they don't say what could be done to improve it. They don't say "it doesn't look very good ... but you know, maybe if they tightened this corner here, made that straight a bit longer, it might be better". They just say "it doesn't look very good" and leave it at that.

So here's where you get to put your money where your mouth is. I want you to go into Paint or Photoshop or whatever program you use and draw up a circuit that you would consider to be good for Formula One and better than what Tilke has created. Now, Tilke has to consider the budget he's been given, the size and shape of the land that has been set aside for him to build on (which he doesn't get to choose, by the way) and FIA regualtions that dictate everything from circuit width and length to camber, banking, the entry speed to the first corner relative to the distance to the Start/Finish Line, the size and palcement of run-off areas, the degree of gradient on inclines and pretty much every facet of a circuit. You don't have to worry about any of that, but you know what? I don't think you can do it. I think you're all talk.

Your plan should be no bigger than 800 pixels by 800 pixels. It should include the circuit, the paddock, grandstands and run-off areas within with borders. And I want you to give me a rationale as to why you think your circuit is better than what Tilke produced. The only rule is that it must be your own work. You cannot post a picture of Spa-Francorchamps; after all, that circuit already exists. Likewise, I don't want to see Eau Rouge Photoshopped into your design for similar reasons.

So go ahead, prove me wrong. This is your opportunity to show everyone what a racing circuit should look like, and tell everyone why you know what you're talking about more than Hermann Tilke.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 22 Sep 2009, 09:00

Captain Hammer wrote:You know what I'm growing tired of?

People criticising Hermann Tilke.

More to the point, I'm sick of people criticising Hermann Tilke without offering any alternatives.

My alternative: resurrect the old Hockemheim track.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Sep 2009, 09:40

rffp wrote:My alternative: resurrect the old Hockemheim track.

Did you not read the rest of my post. I said you cannot use pre-existing circuits or parts of pre-existing circuits.

Also, I'm sick of hearing about how great the old Hockenheim was. It was boring, and epitomised a total lack of imagination with all of its chicanes. The only good bit is the stadium section.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 22 Sep 2009, 09:52

Captain Hammer wrote:
rffp wrote:My alternative: resurrect the old Hockemheim track.

Did you not read the rest of my post. I said you cannot use pre-existing circuits or parts of pre-existing circuits.

Also, I'm sick of hearing about how great the old Hockenheim was. It was boring, and epitomised a total lack of imagination with all of its chicanes. The only good bit is the stadium section.

Well, you mentioned that we cannot use the Spa circuit, but there is no mention of pre-existing circuits, at least explicitly.
I beg to differ on your opinion of old Hockemheim. It was way better than Valencia!

JDOD · Post by **JDOD** » 22 Sep 2009, 10:00

I've done one in PowerPoint. No idea how I am going to convert it into a jpeg and post it though. Might have to label it up a bit first too.

I could email it to someone if you like and if you can think of a good way of posting it.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 22 Sep 2009, 10:21

I used to 'design' circuits all the time when I was little (I'm sure a lot of other posters here did too), and still do the odd doodle from time to time, although my computer-based drawing skills are severely limited. I personally believe I could design a more interesting TRACK LAYOUT than Tilke (although I haven't got time to prove it, right here right now) but modern F1 track design is about much more than the circuit itself, it's about the facilities (for teams and spectators), the transport links, the infrastucture etc. Plus, as has been rightly pointed out already, a lot depends on the lie of the land, existing natural and man-made features (particularly on semi-permanent pseudo-street circuits like Singapore and Valencia) and other such factors.

Archie2K · Post by **Archie2K** » 22 Sep 2009, 10:34

JDOD wrote:I've done one in PowerPoint. No idea how I am going to convert it into a jpeg and post it though. Might have to label it up a bit first too.

I could email it to someone if you like and if you can think of a good way of posting it.

Try pressing Print Screen (marked as PRTSC on my keyboard). Then open up Paint, select Edit > Paste which will paste the whole screen into Paint. Crop out the bits you don't want and save as a .jpg. Then to host it online you could use an image hoster like http://www.imageshack.us
I'll go first shall I?

(Runs clockwise)

Ultimately it follows the same principle of long straights into tight corners but I just really liked the idea of having a pair of straights running alongside each other like that. I'm sure it falls foul of safety regulations, along with turn 2 which has no run off area at all. I'm sure it could be sanitised with nailed down tyre chicanes a la Monza. Also in my mind it is held in the mountains somewhere so there are massive 20% gradients and stuff.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 22 Sep 2009, 11:06

Archie2K wrote:
JDOD wrote:I've done one in PowerPoint. No idea how I am going to convert it into a jpeg and post it though. Might have to label it up a bit first too.

I could email it to someone if you like and if you can think of a good way of posting it.

Try pressing Print Screen (marked as PRTSC on my keyboard). Then open up Paint, select Edit > Paste which will paste the whole screen into Paint. Crop out the bits you don't want and save as a .jpg. Then to host it online you could use an image hoster like http://www.imageshack.us

It'd be a lot better if you used Irfanview and saved it as PNG though.

Archie2K · Post by **Archie2K** » 22 Sep 2009, 11:10

Nuppiz wrote:It'd be a lot better if you used Irfanview and saved it as PNG though.

Yep. As I've just learned, trying to save anything as a gif or jpg in Paint makes it look like a pile of poo. I really wish I had Paint Shop Pro installed on this laptop now.

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 22 Sep 2009, 12:20

I think the problems with the Tilke circuits are these: first, they are all basically laid out by the mind of a human being (obviously). What I mean is that in Shanghai for example, Tilke was given a piece of Chinese swamp and told "build us a circuit". At Donington he was told "build us something in the infield". At Hockenheim he was told "slow down the circuit a bit, we"ll cut through the forest as required". He's basically given a blank canvas and told "fill it with squiggly bits". At many of the circuits we all love, by contrast, the circuit is the result of natural features dictating the layout: the roads that make up the Nordschleif, or around the hills of Spa, or the old perimeter road around the airfield at Silverstone, or the streets of Monaco 80 years ago when the original circuit was laid out. There's a bit more randomness there -- more, certainly, than can come from the mind of someone who has been told to fit 3.84 kilometres of track into a given volume of swamp. The fact that Tilke is contending with modern FIA regulations also contributes -- it limits what he can do in a way that the men who first set out the road around Spa didn't have to deal with.

The other problem is that all Tilke's circuits come from the mind of the same man. All artists and designers have their own stylistic tics (or crutches if you want to be harsh), and Tilke is no exception -- so we get the infield fiddly bit in every one of his circuits because that's his natural inclination. It only becomes annoying because Tilke is the only circuit designer in Bernie's address book, and so instead of one or two fiddly infields we have half a dozen, or however many it is. With the classic circuits, we get layouts by (a) nature/and or the Belgian Highway Authority, and (b) a different brain or set of brains at every track.

Not that every track from 1960 or earlier is a classic, of course. There are lots of circuits that follow natural contours or existing roads that are lousy. But the real stars have emerged over time. That's another reason, actually -- natural selection, if you want, has allowed the only the cream of the classic circuits to rise to the top, whereas we are subjected to everything that comes of Tilke's drafting table. If Tilke had built 120 circuits in the fifties and we were using the best half dozen today, we'd probably be talking about the classic tracks designed by that golden-age master Hermann Tilke.

watka · Post by **watka** » 22 Sep 2009, 12:28

I agree with what people have been saying that the problem is the land that Tilke has been given, not his designs themselves. Aside from Turkey, all of his circuits have been built on flat land, which immediately takes out one challenging aspect of an F1 circuit. Nordschleife and Spa, 2 of the greats, are famed for their undulations. Tilke cannot make a hill out of nothing. Similarly with street circuits, Tilke can only work with the roads that he's been given.

Unless someone can come up with a 3D track diagram in this thread, then its a bit pointless asking people to design tracks (that's not to say I haven't doodled in the past).

PS Sepang and Shanghai are perfectly good circuits and offer good racing imo.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Sep 2009, 12:35

watka wrote:Unless someone can come up with a 3D track diagram in this thread, then its a bit pointless asking people to design tracks (that's not to say I haven't doodled in the past).

I mean you should just draw a simple top-down view of a circuit that you think would be better for Formula One than the Tilkedromes.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 22 Sep 2009, 13:25

Archie2K wrote:
Nuppiz wrote:It'd be a lot better if you used Irfanview and saved it as PNG though.

Yep. As I've just learned, trying to save anything as a gif or jpg in Paint makes it look like a pile of poo. I really wish I had Paint Shop Pro installed on this laptop now.

I suggest you try GIMP: it's free, and it handles the basic stuff quite well: http://gimp.org/

Pacifics only fan · Post by **Pacifics only fan** » 22 Sep 2009, 13:36

Thing is, many, if not all, of us, like (I assume) Tilke are not professional racing drivers. At the end of the day, racers know what makes for good racing. When countries want to commission the design of new tracks, they should get ex-F1 guys to design the track layout, THEN get Tilke to design the facilities around that, because THAT's where he tends to really excel.

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 22 Sep 2009, 13:40

I agree that it's tough to draw a line on a piece of paper that you can look at and say "this is better than Tilke" -- maybe this proves Captain Hammer's point. And since almost all of Tilke's circuits are built on the flat -- essentially lines on a piece of paper -- maybe it's difficult to do dramatically better than Tilke. Certainly you can do worse -- I'd rather have any Tilkedrome than something slapped together in a parking lot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circu ... Palace.png

That said, something a little more open and flowing, every now and then, would be better than the endless tight infields that Tilke inserts all over the place.

A track I was unfamiliar with but that really baught my eye is Sears Point in Sonoma, California. Happened to tune into the Indycar race this year in August, and the track is astonishing. The racing was, well, Indycar, so the cars were a la 1999, the facilities were kind of primitive, and the marshals seemed unable to act if they were separated from their pick-up trucks -- although the on-track action was fairly thrilling in parts. But the circuit itself is great -- dramatically up and down, lots of flowing corners, and deep gulches into which cars fall if they go off the track. Would be great to see $100 million put into that circuit to FIA-ise it and have the 2011 US Grand Prix there.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 22 Sep 2009, 14:32

The Sears Point track is Infineon Raceway, it's in GT4 and a few other racing simulations and looks like fun. IIRC, there's little / no runoff area on the last corner, but other than that probably could be FIA-ised.

Fitch · Post by **Fitch** » 22 Sep 2009, 15:00

Would be great to see $100 million put into that circuit to FIA-ise it

I think thats half he problem right there.......the FIA..........

Yes, I do realize that they do this for Safety, and I respect that...but I've maintained that for the Last 40 years the Safety movement has gone the wrong way.........

When JYS and Co. began really getting serious about safety, they went after the Tracks, because thats all they could do. To a certain degree they were right, the tracks back then were horrible. But it's stuck that Safety is Rule #1 with the Tracks. So we've been building or Butchering tracks to make them fit the mold........The problem is, Safety is a 50/50 game, it's not just the Tracks it's also the Cars.........If the FIA put alot more energy into making the cars more safe, we could have great racing on Great circuits. Todays cars are built to race on todays Tilkedromes. As such their safety features are the same way. It stands to reason that you can add fast sweeping circuits and the cars can be made safe enough to race there.(Safe Enough is a Dangerous phrase I know, NO CAR can ever be safe enough)

Now don't get me wrong, as much as I'd like to see it, I don't think we need to go back to running the Original Spa Course...But, there are so many tracks that have been Destroyed in the name of Safety, and the result is Crappy Racing. Spa, stands out as an oddity among those, with Spa they managed to make the track safer and yet still retain alot of the Old Character that made the Original Course so great. I also believe that a number of tracks can be fixed, or returned to some semblance of their original Layouts and be great once again........Maybe I'll do a few Ideas up and show them here.....

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 16:33

Working on one right now...think it'll be quite a good track.
Not to mention, I'm trying to make it as realistic as possible, with safety etc.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 22 Sep 2009, 17:02

I totally agree about the old Hockenheim. It was basically a bad oval with a few chicanes with some awesome scenery.

Captain Hammer, the problem with this thread... is... well, it's essentially the clone of this thread, and there are a few track designs in there.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 18:22

My vision of a Grand Prix track near Glasgow, so Scotland will finally have a proper racetrack! (Knockhill is a bit sh*t to be honest)

Turn 1 hairpin, Switchback, provides first overtaking spot of the lap. A good exit out of Leslie is essential, to have more speed going through Curva Ecosse and down to the heavy braking zone of Stewart 1, another place to overtake. Then a sweeping downhill righthander at Stewart 2, under the bridge leading into the Epic banked oval of Daytona 1, 2 and 3 where (hopefully) many slipstreaming battles will occur! Then hard on the brakes again for another overtaking zone, at Clark Chicane.
Then a flat out left hander, down to Forest's Edge, and going uphill through the mega Redwater turn (have a guess why its called that, and its not because of the water next to it

) and left at Bridge, down towards Cleland and the final turn, McRae.

FYI, the Grandstand at Redwater is transparent, because its built like the ones at Yas Marina...above the run-off! (Or in this case...gravel trap).

Much better than any Tilkedrome!

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Sep 2009, 18:41

kostas22 wrote:My vision of a Grand Prix track near Glasgow, so Scotland will finally have a proper racetrack! (Knockhill is a bit sh*t to be honest)

Turn 1 hairpin, Switchback, provides first overtaking spot of the lap. A good exit out of Leslie is essential, to have more speed going through Curva Ecosse and down to the heavy braking zone of Stewart 1, another place to overtake. Then a sweeping downhill righthander at Stewart 2, under the bridge leading into the Epic banked oval of Daytona 1, 2 and 3 where (hopefully) many slipstreaming battles will occur! Then hard on the brakes again for another overtaking zone, at Clark Chicane.
Then a flat out left hander, down to Forest's Edge, and going uphill through the mega Redwater turn (have a guess why its called that, and its not because of the water next to it ) and left at Bridge, down towards Cleland and the final turn, McRae.

FYI, the Grandstand at Redwater is transparent, because its built like the ones at Yas Marina...above the run-off! (Or in this case...gravel trap).

Much better than any Tilkedrome!

Have you considered how steep the track would have to be at turn 3, Curva Ecosse, you don't have far going under one bridge then over the next. My solution would be to have that short section go over both rather than under both...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Sep 2009, 18:43

Pretty cool effort though, just thought I would point that out....

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 18:47

dr-baker wrote:
kostas22 wrote:My vision of a Grand Prix track near Glasgow, so Scotland will finally have a proper racetrack! (Knockhill is a bit sh*t to be honest)

Turn 1 hairpin, Switchback, provides first overtaking spot of the lap. A good exit out of Leslie is essential, to have more speed going through Curva Ecosse and down to the heavy braking zone of Stewart 1, another place to overtake. Then a sweeping downhill righthander at Stewart 2, under the bridge leading into the Epic banked oval of Daytona 1, 2 and 3 where (hopefully) many slipstreaming battles will occur! Then hard on the brakes again for another overtaking zone, at Clark Chicane.
Then a flat out left hander, down to Forest's Edge, and going uphill through the mega Redwater turn (have a guess why its called that, and its not because of the water next to it ) and left at Bridge, down towards Cleland and the final turn, McRae.

FYI, the Grandstand at Redwater is transparent, because its built like the ones at Yas Marina...above the run-off! (Or in this case...gravel trap).

Much better than any Tilkedrome!

Have you considered how steep the track would have to be at turn 3, Curva Ecosse, you don't have far going under one bridge then over the next. My solution would be to have that short section go over both rather than under both...

TBH the second one is more of a tunnel underneath than a brige over the lower bit..as in Turn 5 cuts into the ground, with Curva Ecosse being the "standard" level of ground if you see what I mean.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 22 Sep 2009, 18:55

Great! The IRN-BRU Grand Prix of Scotland is ready! Though I suppose most of the teams would find their tires have disappeared after day #1 of qualifying, just to resurface at the Barras after the circus is gone

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 22 Sep 2009, 18:56

kostas22, that track looks quite promising, with that dual cross-over and the banked section... it's got pretty much everything (Tilke, pay notice!

). It could probably use another chicane somewhere around T13 perhaps (so we don't get drivers flying into the woods

). Eitherway, nice one.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:00

lostpin wrote:kostas22, that track looks quite promising, with that dual cross-over and the banked section... it's got pretty much everything (Tilke, pay notice! ). It could probably use another chicane somewhere around T13 perhaps (so we don't get drivers flying into the woods ). Eitherway, nice one.

T10,11 and 13 would have walls (like at Singapore, Valencia etc) to stop that happening lol.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:00

Yes, kostas22, that track is really good. Now, you need to remove Scotland from the British Isles, bring it to the Middle East and create huge oil reserves, remove all people with any vague interest in F1 or motorsports, make the corner names less emotional (Turn 1, 2 etc) and we might have a Scottish Grand Prix!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:03

shinji wrote:Yes, kostas22, that track is really good. Now, you need to remove Scotland from the British Isles, bring it to the Middle East and create huge oil reserves, remove all people with any vague interest in F1 or motorsports, make the corner names less emotional (Turn 1, 2 etc) and we might have a Scottish Grand Prix!

Or go one better, replace Valencia with this.

Still, nobody has figured out the Redwater mystery?

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:08

kostas22 wrote:Still, nobody has figured out the Redwater mystery?

Eau Rouge

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:10

shinji wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Still, nobody has figured out the Redwater mystery?

Eau Rouge

Indeed. I had to rename it to bend the rules of this thread

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:12

My view is that same as another expressed earlier on in the thread - it's not that Tilke is a *bad* designer, just that they're *all* his tracks, and seem to have a lot of similar characteristics. It reminds me a bit of Doctor Who - in the old days, there were all sorts of interesting people involved, lots of different people with different styles over the years. These days, it's just Russell T Davies, and his particular style tends to dominate every aspect. All the racing tracks are from the mind of one man.

I also thing it lacks local colour. It doesn't matter what exotic, far-flung place we go next in Formula 1, it's still always going to be a Tilke track. It'd be much more interesting, and feel much more like a proper world tour, if a Korean designer had done the Korean track, a Chinese designer had done the Chinese track, etc. Of course, they have to conform to modern safety and layout standards, but it would have been brilliant to have at least seen the basic track design to have emerged from the soul of each country.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:16

Hmm...I need to start searching for an extremely wealthy investor to build this thing...if Flav gives me money, does that mean its not allowed an FIA Superlicense?

And I am declaring Tilke well and truly beaten with my track

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:18

The creator of Gran Turismo(I can't spell his name) already has, even if the tracks are fictional. Grand Valley Speedway, Special Stage Route 5 and 11, and Red Rock Valley were all amazing circuits. Seattle Circuit would have suited late 80's and early 90's cars.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:20

About the driver's designing tracks idea - in golf, many ex-golfers earn a living (not that they need to ) out of designing new courses in far flung places of the world such as Singapore, Uruguay and Kildare. However, the most challenging, most popular and most well known courses are still the Spa and Monza equivalents of golf - Augusta National and The Old Course at St.Andrews, which were designed by random 1920s golfers and nature, respectively.

So I'd vouch for professional track designers being the men for the job, just as long as there is more than one of them and they're in places where there is either interest in F1, or they're so far away from Europe that you have to get up at 3 in the morning. I love that, and that's why I don't like Singapore as much as I might, or Melbourne as much as I used to. There's no novelty to getting up at 8 for a race, I do that every day.

Anyway, yeah, Tilke is a good track designer, but kostas22 should design a few too.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Sep 2009, 19:21

redbulljack14 wrote:Special Stage Route 5, Seattle Circuit would have suited late 80's and early 90's cars.

My favourite GT tracks ever! Going over the jumps at Seattle in a Renault Espace F1 would be nuts in real life!

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 22 Sep 2009, 20:35

i preffer apricot hill raceway

Pacifics only fan · Post by **Pacifics only fan** » 22 Sep 2009, 20:38

fjackdaw wrote:I also thing it lacks local colour. It doesn't matter what exotic, far-flung place we go next in Formula 1, it's still always going to be a Tilke track. It'd be much more interesting, and feel much more like a proper world tour, if a Korean designer had done the Korean track, a Chinese designer had done the Chinese track, etc. Of course, they have to conform to modern safety and layout standards, but it would have been brilliant to have at least seen the basic track design to have emerged from the soul of each country.

That's very true, with each country you'd have different influences and styles, which gives the track it's own flavour and challenges.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 22 Sep 2009, 23:46

redbulljack14 wrote:The creator of Gran Turismo(I can't spell his name) already has, even if the tracks are fictional. Grand Valley Speedway, Special Stage Route 5 and 11, and Red Rock Valley were all amazing circuits. Seattle Circuit would have suited late 80's and early 90's cars.

Grand Valley Speedway and Special Stage Route 5 are definitely great tracks, but have a few corners that would probably result in horrible accidents if translated to real life - the last few corners at Grand Valley and that first corner of Route 5 are suspect. I think there's a reason why SS Route 11 was only used in the first one - there were some amazingly challenging corners in that course, including the chicane about halfway through the course, but others are quite hideous - there are hairpin turns and ninety-degree corners all over the place.

Well, in any case, they're definitely better than Citta di Aria, which I found to be a hideous circuit. Autumn Ring was a course that I quite enjoyed, once I got the hang of it.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 23 Sep 2009, 04:46

This is a track that I found for NASCAR Racing 2003 Season and also for rFactor called the Karjala Raceway.

I named some of the corners for the history of an AI racing league I run at the track using the NR2003 AI. They're able to pass in as many as six places (beat that, Tilke), but then again an NR2003 .GNS physics car and a Formula 1 car are a lot different. The track is almost completely flat and most of the runoff is also called sand traps and grass. It's also got the blast through the forest appeal to it.

The start finish line is literally right where pit exit is.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 23 Sep 2009, 05:09

shinji wrote:About the driver's designing tracks idea - in golf, many ex-golfers earn a living (not that they need to ) out of designing new courses in far flung places of the world such as Singapore, Uruguay and Kildare. However, the most challenging, most popular and most well known courses are still the Spa and Monza equivalents of golf - Augusta National and The Old Course at St.Andrews, which were designed by random 1920s golfers and nature, respectively.

So I'd vouch for professional track designers being the men for the job, just as long as there is more than one of them and they're in places where there is either interest in F1, or they're so far away from Europe that you have to get up at 3 in the morning. I love that, and that's why I don't like Singapore as much as I might, or Melbourne as much as I used to. There's no novelty to getting up at 8 for a race, I do that every day.

Anyway, yeah, Tilke is a good track designer, but kostas22 should design a few too.

Bobby Jones was no nobody.