2012 German Grand Prix Discussion Thread

[Londoner]

Yep, it's time to open this thread up.

Although I can't find any sources to back it up, I assume the DRS zone will be along the curving main straight.

And bad luck has struck Grosjean again. He has a 5 place grid penalty for changing a gearbox. These silly arbitary rules strike again.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101167

[Benetton]

How's the weather lining up to be??

[TheBigJ]

Nurburgiring or Kockenheim

[dr-baker]

Nurburgiring or Kockenheim

The Ring at the Heim of Hocken.

[Pamphlet]

Nurburgiring or Kockenheim

The Ring at the Heim of Hocken.

But definitely not Kocken.

[shinji]

How's the weather lining up to be??

Dry throughout, and we'll keep thinking that until wet tyres are first put on. I hate those Beckettian races with endless shots of the Meteo France screens saying 'Rain in 15 minutes' or whatever.

[dr-baker]

Nurburgiring or Kockenheim

The Ring at the Heim of Hocken.

But definitely not Kocken.

No, don't want any Kockens around here...

[Klon]

The Ring at the Heim of Hocken.

But definitely not Kocken.

Better than the Heim of Kacken though.
I am supposed to be mature, so why am I doing this?

[F1000X]

How's the weather lining up to be??

Dry throughout, and we'll keep thinking that until wet tyres are first put on. I hate those Beckettian races with endless shots of the Meteo France screens saying 'Rain in 15 minutes' or whatever.

Never did I think I would see a post that could link F1 and Waiting For Godot. Impressive sir.

[Rusujuur]

Some interesting updates coming to the ring according to various sources.

A make-or-brake update for macca it seems and according to ehm.. Boulier a bigger for Lotus.

Could it be DRS or exhausts? I think they have only tinkered with wings and floor thus far, so this could help them get their 1st win.

Also interesting to see how the Caterham does in "normal" weather compared to the Toro Rossos whos qualy was a lucky overperformance in GB.

[mario]

Some interesting updates coming to the ring according to various sources.

A make-or-brake update for macca it seems and according to ehm.. Boulier a bigger for Lotus.

Could it be DRS or exhausts? I think they have only tinkered with wings and floor thus far, so this could help them get their 1st win.

Also interesting to see how the Caterham does in "normal" weather compared to the Toro Rossos whos qualy was a lucky overperformance in GB.

My gut feeling would be that Lotus's upgrades are aero related, and it is possible that they could be experimenting with their exhausts - that is one of the few areas that they have not made any major changes to over the course of the season, so there may be scope for development there. Most of their changes this season have been fairly small - slight tweaks to the front wing and the leading edge of the floor - because the car has been performing so well until now, and I suspect that they might fancy their chances in Hockenheim should there be relatively warm weather. I wonder whether this might be a hint that they are following the McLaren/Sauber school of thought, or perhaps the slightly more radical interpretation Red Bull went for?

As for McLaren, that could be equally interesting given that there are some interesting rumours swirling around their car - some of the rumours were expected for Silverstone but postponed (the modified front brake ducts, for example), but the big speculation is over whether McLaren might ditch their current nosecone design and opt for a step nosed chassis. They were experimenting a little while ago with a ridge on the nosecone that some suspected was being used to gauge whether a raised nose would have an adverse effect on the drivers line of sight, so perhaps this might be the make or break change they intend to make?

[CoopsII]

Nurburgiring or Kockenheim

Diet Hockenheim.

[pasta_maldonado]

That curved straight into a tight hairpin is not only boring but also asking for a major major accident to happen. Tilke cod have at least put a right kink into a slowly tightening corner

[Aerospeed]

That curved straight into a tight hairpin is not only boring but also asking for a major major accident to happen. Tilke cod have at least put a right kink into a slowly tightening corner

You're about nine years late saying that...

[Peter]

Whiting needs to use the DRS at a track like this to create an overtaking opportunity, rather than to create overtaking. Meaning, use DRS to try and get the cars closer together, so they can overtake on their own, without DRS. Have the DRS zone on the short straight after turn 1. That will bunch the pack up a little bit more, then they can actually work to try and ride that draft and have a go int other hairpin. It's safer, too.

[DemocalypseNow]

Whiting needs to use the DRS at a track like this to create an overtaking opportunity, rather than to create overtaking. Meaning, use DRS to try and get the cars closer together, so they can overtake on their own, without DRS. Have the DRS zone on the short straight after turn 1. That will bunch the pack up a little bit more, then they can actually work to try and ride that draft and have a go int other hairpin. It's safer, too.

No it won't.

It will bunch the cars up too close, causing a cascade effect and costing the pursuing car time on the exit of T2, meaning they'll be miles behind the car in front by the time they reach the hairpin. It will make natural overtaking even more difficult than it was previously without DRS, so no-one will use it and the DRS zone will become completely redundant.

[WeirdKerr]

That curved straight into a tight hairpin is not only boring but also asking for a major major accident to happen. Tilke cod have at least put a right kink into a slowly tightening corner

You're about nine years late saying that...

the curved straight reminds me of the tamburello....

[AdrianSutil]

Whiting needs to use the DRS at a track like this to create an overtaking opportunity, rather than to create overtaking. Meaning, use DRS to try and get the cars closer together, so they can overtake on their own, without DRS. Have the DRS zone on the short straight after turn 1. That will bunch the pack up a little bit more, then they can actually work to try and ride that draft and have a go int other hairpin. It's safer, too.

No it won't.

It will bunch the cars up too close, causing a cascade effect and costing the pursuing car time on the exit of T2, meaning they'll be miles behind the car in front by the time they reach the hairpin. It will make natural overtaking even more difficult than it was previously without DRS, so no-one will use it and the DRS zone will become completely redundant.

Spot on. F1 cars lose a hell of a lot of downforce following too close into turn 1 and 2. The advantage gained by using the DRS on the pit straight would be nothing after T1/T2. It's fine where it probably will be. Plus, we've seen plenty of shunts at the turn 4 hairpin in the past.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

That curved straight into a tight hairpin is not only boring but also asking for a major major accident to happen. Tilke cod have at least put a right kink into a slowly tightening corner

I don't agree with you, I actually think it is one of the best parts of the circuit.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Lotus have a double DRS and we have a forecast of light rain in 5 minutes.

[mario]

So, Autosport are reporting that that the latest major development that Lotus are bringing to Hockenheim is a form of double DRS - however, they seem to believe that their system, unlike the Mercedes system, would operate only on the rear wing, stalling the main element in a way that is similar to the effect of the F-ducts of 2010.
Furthermore, this new system will probably not be used at Hockenheim - the idea is that Kimi will test the new wing in free practise for data gathering purposes, with a refined version being deployed for the higher downforce tracks later this year. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101286

[TomWazzleshaw]

Almost 2 practice sessions down and we've learned... absolutely nothing.

[Ataxia]

And here is that system for you now:

[Londoner]

Schumi has smacked it into the barriers. Red flags are out, and that's probably the end of the session.

[Aerospeed]

And here is that system for you now:

That has to be illegal. Please don't tell me nobody is protesting this...

[Shadaza]

Marussia 14th and 15th. I know it was all down to the rain, but is this the best the Virgin/Marussia team has ever done in an Official session?

[mario]

And here is that system for you now:

That has to be illegal. Please don't tell me nobody is protesting this...

So far, nobody has launched any sort of protest and the device has passed scruitineering - Sam Michael was asked what McLaren's view on the matter was, and they said that they believe that the device is legal.

Sporting director Sam Michael confirmed that he was confident that Lotus had gone through the correct procedures to ensure the system's legality. "I'm sure that the legality of that is fine", said Michael. "I wouldn't question that. I'm sure that they have done all due process."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101299

As far as I can tell, what Lotus are doing is legal - the air intake system fits within a zone where openings are allowed for the airbox, whilst the central exit fits within a zone around the centreline of the car where openings are allowed (mainly for cooling). The duct running up to the rear wing, meanwhile, seems to take advantage of a 15cm wide zone around the centreline of the car where additional bodywork is allowed (which is why you have seen little winglets appearing on top of the gearbox on some cars), and the pipework within the wing itself uses the same interpretation as Mercedes - so unless there is something that I have missed, I believe that what Lotus are doing all conforms with the rules.

On another note, although Schumacher crashed during FP2 (which he admitted was down to him being distracted when radioing the pits), Rosberg has been hit by a bit of bad luck himself - Mercedes have discovered a problem that will force him to change his gearbox, making him the second driver that will face a gearbox penalty this weekend (Grosjean having picked up his gearbox penalty after Lotus discovered that one of his gears developed a hairline crack during the final lap at Silverstone). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101304

[AdrianSutil]

Is the rain predicted all weekend?

[Londoner]

Is the rain predicted all weekend?

F1 Fanatic say that it might rain during qualifying, but the race will be dry.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/07/19/2012-german-grand-prix-weather/

[Peter]

Whiting needs to use the DRS at a track like this to create an overtaking opportunity, rather than to create overtaking. Meaning, use DRS to try and get the cars closer together, so they can overtake on their own, without DRS. Have the DRS zone on the short straight after turn 1. That will bunch the pack up a little bit more, then they can actually work to try and ride that draft and have a go int other hairpin. It's safer, too.

No it won't.

It will bunch the cars up too close, causing a cascade effect and costing the pursuing car time on the exit of T2, meaning they'll be miles behind the car in front by the time they reach the hairpin. It will make natural overtaking even more difficult than it was previously without DRS, so no-one will use it and the DRS zone will become completely redundant.

Spot on. F1 cars lose a hell of a lot of downforce following too close into turn 1 and 2. The advantage gained by using the DRS on the pit straight would be nothing after T1/T2. It's fine where it probably will be. Plus, we've seen plenty of shunts at the turn 4 hairpin in the past.

I just don't want to see DRS overpowered again. I hated to see Alonso go through all that work and ingeniousness in Canada to jump Vettel and Hamilton, only to have Lewis sail past again like it was nothing.

[Meatwad]

Marussia 14th and 15th. I know it was all down to the rain, but is this the best the Virgin/Marussia team has ever done in an Official session?

Two years ago in Suzuka, Glock was second fastest in FP3. However, only two drivers set a lap time (Alguersuari and Glock).

[AndreaModa]

Marussia 14th and 15th. I know it was all down to the rain, but is this the best the Virgin/Marussia team has ever done in an Official session?

To paraphrase GwyllimJJames:

This is Marussia's race.

[mario]

I just don't want to see DRS overpowered again. I hated to see Alonso go through all that work and ingeniousness in Canada to jump Vettel and Hamilton, only to have Lewis sail past again like it was nothing.

To be fair, by that point in the race Lewis's pace advantage, at more than a second a lap and growing, was enough to have seen him comfortably past both drivers fairly soon - as it was, Alonso's tyre wear was so severe that Hamilton was already past Alonso before they even reached the DRS activation point, because his superior traction meant that he could simply out accelerate Alonso. Speaking of Canada, they had already tried cutting down the size of the DRS zone in Canada compared to last year for that reason, although the FIA does face something of a difficult balancing act given that they still have relatively little data to work from.
In the case of Hockenheim, they are having to rely completely on simulations of the race, which does make it hard to judge - when the DRS zone was first announced for the Circuit de Catalunya, for example, initially most observers believed that it would make passing too easy given the length of the zone, but recent evidence has shown that it has had a fairly limited effect. By comparison, there were other venues where the DRS was relatively overpowered last year but was fine tuned for this year to have less of an effect, such as in Melbourne.

The FIA probably believe that this represents the best compromise for the race, but I guess that we'll have to wait and see how the race itself turns out - as it is, the wet weather during the practise sessions today will complicate things. The drivers face the scenario of potentially qualifying in wet conditions but racing in dry conditions, as happened in Silverstone - at least there the teams could rely on data from 2011 for their gearing choices to take the DRS into account, but they don't have that data available to them today in Hockenheim, so I do think that it is possible that a few teams might undergear their cars for DRS use, rendering it less powerful in the race.

[pasta_maldonado]

Marussia 14th and 15th. I know it was all down to the rain, but is this the best the Virgin/Marussia team has ever done in an Official session?

Two years ago in Suzuka, Glock was second fastest in FP3. However, only two drivers set a lap time (Alguersuari and Glock).

You know when's it raining a little too hard when you can sail boats down the pit lane Also, welcome to the forums Meatwad!

[Meatwad]

You know when's it raining a little too hard when you can sail boats down the pit lane Also, welcome to the forums Meatwad!

Thanks! I finally decided to join after several months of reading the discussions on this forum.

I hope Marussia gets a good result along with Caterham and HRT. I know it's very unlikely but it would be nice to see those teams score at least one point this season.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

That Lotus looks really illegal.

[Peter]

I just don't want to see DRS overpowered again. I hated to see Alonso go through all that work and ingeniousness in Canada to jump Vettel and Hamilton, only to have Lewis sail past again like it was nothing.

To be fair, by that point in the race Lewis's pace advantage, at more than a second a lap and growing, was enough to have seen him comfortably past both drivers fairly soon - as it was, Alonso's tyre wear was so severe that Hamilton was already past Alonso before they even reached the DRS activation point, because his superior traction meant that he could simply out accelerate Alonso. Speaking of Canada, they had already tried cutting down the size of the DRS zone in Canada compared to last year for that reason, although the FIA does face something of a difficult balancing act given that they still have relatively little data to work from.

I probably should have been more clear. I meant after Alonso made his first pitstop. He leapfrogged Lewis and Vettel, and his lead only existed from pit exit to the DRS zone.

[TomWazzleshaw]

The curse has begun. Mark Webber's just been given a 5 place grid penalty for a gearbox change.

[Londoner]

The curse has begun. Mark Webber's just been given a 5 place grid penalty for a gearbox change.

With the amount of gearbox penalties that the drivers seem to be getting, they may as well not bother running qualifying.

Yes, I'm in one of my FIA-bashing moods.

[Benetton]

Timo Glock P4