The Lucas di Grassi Formula E Thread

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madmark1974
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The Lucas di Grassi Formula E Thread

Post by madmark1974 »

A new electric-only motorsport Championship, officially endorsed by the FIA, with Lucas Di Grassi as the development driver, due to start in 2014 ...

http://www.formulaeholdings.com/

And a BBC article about it :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19402383

I sense much reject potential ... But it could well be the future ...

Here's a quote for you to get stuck into ...

We will introduce many new features. Just two of which will be that the pole position will be the result of playoffs, with cars racing one against another, in a format similar to tennis or champions.
The second is that in the pit-stop, the driver will not change tyres or batteries, they will change car!
Last edited by madmark1974 on 11 Mar 2013, 15:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by tommykl »

I sense some hilarity in the future :mrgreen:
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

This has the potential to be greatly rejectful. :lol:
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

And the FIA are to licence out the commercial rights to the championship:

Autosport.com wrote:The FIA has agreed to licence out the commercial rights of the Formula E electric championship it aims to launch in 2014.

A consortium of international investors, among them Addax team owner Alejandro Agag and Drayson Racing managing partner Lord Drayson, will take charge of the series' commercial rights after reaching an agreement with the FIA.

The series will feature cars powered exclusively by electric energy, and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.

Eric Barbaroux, chairman of French company 'Electric Formula', and billionaire investor Enrique Banuelos are the other partners in the newly-created Formula E Holdings [FEH].

FIA president Jean Todt said he was confident the experience of the FEH parties would prove a massive benefit to the series.

Plus, I remember reading bits about it last summer (well, one article each in Autosport and Auto Hebdo) and I think the intention is that all the races will be city-based street tracks. The intention is to convince the public at large of electric cars, and so they reckon that by taking the races of electric cars to the masses, this may persuade people to ditch the internal combustion in favour of cars that rely heavily on rare earth metals and strong acids that will need to be replaced at least a couple of times during the life-times of the cars, plus on distant power stations, many of which still rely on fossil fuels or nuclear radiation...
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

dr-baker wrote:And the FIA are to licence out the commercial rights to the championship:

Autosport.com wrote:The FIA has agreed to licence out the commercial rights of the Formula E electric championship it aims to launch in 2014.

A consortium of international investors, among them Addax team owner Alejandro Agag and Drayson Racing managing partner Lord Drayson, will take charge of the series' commercial rights after reaching an agreement with the FIA.

The series will feature cars powered exclusively by electric energy, and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.

Eric Barbaroux, chairman of French company 'Electric Formula', and billionaire investor Enrique Banuelos are the other partners in the newly-created Formula E Holdings [FEH].

FIA president Jean Todt said he was confident the experience of the FEH parties would prove a massive benefit to the series.

Plus, I remember reading bits about it last summer (well, one article each in Autosport and Auto Hebdo) and I think the intention is that all the races will be city-based street tracks. The intention is to convince the public at large of electric cars, and so they reckon that by taking the races of electric cars to the masses, this may persuade people to ditch the internal combustion in favour of cars that rely heavily on rare earth metals and strong acids that will need to be replaced at least a couple of times during the life-times of the cars, plus on distant power stations, many of which still rely on fossil fuels or nuclear radiation...


So in other words, they are less environmentally friendly than what they are intended to replace :lol:

I'm loving the rejectfulness already.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

eurobrun wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And the FIA are to licence out the commercial rights to the championship:

Autosport.com wrote:The FIA has agreed to licence out the commercial rights of the Formula E electric championship it aims to launch in 2014.

A consortium of international investors, among them Addax team owner Alejandro Agag and Drayson Racing managing partner Lord Drayson, will take charge of the series' commercial rights after reaching an agreement with the FIA.

The series will feature cars powered exclusively by electric energy, and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.

Eric Barbaroux, chairman of French company 'Electric Formula', and billionaire investor Enrique Banuelos are the other partners in the newly-created Formula E Holdings [FEH].

FIA president Jean Todt said he was confident the experience of the FEH parties would prove a massive benefit to the series.

Plus, I remember reading bits about it last summer (well, one article each in Autosport and Auto Hebdo) and I think the intention is that all the races will be city-based street tracks. The intention is to convince the public at large of electric cars, and so they reckon that by taking the races of electric cars to the masses, this may persuade people to ditch the internal combustion in favour of cars that rely heavily on rare earth metals and strong acids that will need to be replaced at least a couple of times during the life-times of the cars, plus on distant power stations, many of which still rely on fossil fuels or nuclear radiation...


So in other words, they are less environmentally friendly than what they are intended to replace :lol:

I'm loving the rejectfulness already.

Well, that is only my perception of it, of course. I don't remember reading much to prove I'm right. But I do remember once reading that a lot more CO2 is used in both the manufacture and disposal of a Toyota Prius compared to a standard internal combustion car. I wonder if Faustus or Mario could confirm or refute my prejudices?
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by mario »

dr-baker wrote:Well, that is only my perception of it, of course. I don't remember reading much to prove I'm right. But I do remember once reading that a lot more CO2 is used in both the manufacture and disposal of a Toyota Prius compared to a standard internal combustion car. I wonder if Faustus or Mario could confirm or refute my prejudices?

I do recall that there was a report that claimed that a Toyota Prius caused more environmental damage over its life cycle than a Hummer, but there were also several papers that tore the assumptions that were made in the original paper to shreds, since they relied on some very optimistic assumptions in some areas and some very pessimistic assumptions in others (particularly over how long those vehicles would be used for).

That said, whilst there might be a difference in the manufacturing and disposal stages, the energy expenditure during those stages is relatively low compared to the amount of fuel energy that you get through when driving your car. In the UK, for example, the Department for Transport reckons that the average person does about 8,500 miles a year; if the average person can get 35mpg a year, that equates to about 240 gallons, or around 1100 litres, of fuel per year. A litre of petrol, in turn, has about 35MJ of energy, so each year your average driver uses the equivalent of around 38,000MJ of energy (about 1.5 times as much energy that you average household uses per year for domestic purposes).

As to the question of whether or not it would be more efficient for that energy to be distributed through the national grid, it might well be the case - it is currently an issue of debate, but given that your average power station tends to work under constant load and power losses through the national grid are relatively low, there is some evidence to suggest that the net emissions from an electrically powered vehicle might still be less than the equivalent petrol engined car. I don't believe that a definite answer has been reached on that question, however, so that may change as time goes on.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

mario wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Well, that is only my perception of it, of course. I don't remember reading much to prove I'm right. But I do remember once reading that a lot more CO2 is used in both the manufacture and disposal of a Toyota Prius compared to a standard internal combustion car. I wonder if Faustus or Mario could confirm or refute my prejudices?

I do recall that there was a report that claimed that a Toyota Prius caused more environmental damage over its life cycle than a Hummer, but there were also several papers that tore the assumptions that were made in the original paper to shreds, since they relied on some very optimistic assumptions in some areas and some very pessimistic assumptions in others (particularly over how long those vehicles would be used for).

That said, whilst there might be a difference in the manufacturing and disposal stages, the energy expenditure during those stages is relatively low compared to the amount of fuel energy that you get through when driving your car. In the UK, for example, the Department for Transport reckons that the average person does about 8,500 miles a year; if the average person can get 35mpg a year, that equates to about 240 gallons, or around 1100 litres, of fuel per year. A litre of petrol, in turn, has about 35MJ of energy, so each year your average driver uses the equivalent of around 38,000MJ of energy (about 1.5 times as much energy that you average household uses per year for domestic purposes).

As to the question of whether or not it would be more efficient for that energy to be distributed through the national grid, it might well be the case - it is currently an issue of debate, but given that your average power station tends to work under constant load and power losses through the national grid are relatively low, there is some evidence to suggest that the net emissions from an electrically powered vehicle might still be less than the equivalent petrol engined car. I don't believe that a definite answer has been reached on that question, however, so that may change as time goes on.

OK, so I may be wrong, but I have at least one more question: what is the impact of disposing the batteries of electric cars on the environment? Does this possibly outweigh the net emission savings that you suggest electric cars may have over the internal combustion car?

I know that when I bought a car nearly 5 years ago, the Toyota Prius had a similar mpg to the turbodiesel Mini Clubman Cooper D I eventually bought, but the Prius would have had extra batteries that my Mini wouldn't have needed (I assume that that is how hybrids work, just like an F1 KERS system - energy is regenerated and stored in a battery until required), and the toxicity of the disposal of the battery would have offset any environmental benefit that the hybrid system would otherwise have had. Is this how it works?
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Phoenix »

I, for one, am mildly enthusiastic to see how this will work. It will be far from perfect at first, but it's nothing that can't be solved, really.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by nome66 »

eurobrun wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And the FIA are to licence out the commercial rights to the championship:

Autosport.com wrote:The FIA has agreed to licence out the commercial rights of the Formula E electric championship it aims to launch in 2014.

A consortium of international investors, among them Addax team owner Alejandro Agag and Drayson Racing managing partner Lord Drayson, will take charge of the series' commercial rights after reaching an agreement with the FIA.

The series will feature cars powered exclusively by electric energy, and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.

Eric Barbaroux, chairman of French company 'Electric Formula', and billionaire investor Enrique Banuelos are the other partners in the newly-created Formula E Holdings [FEH].

FIA president Jean Todt said he was confident the experience of the FEH parties would prove a massive benefit to the series.

Plus, I remember reading bits about it last summer (well, one article each in Autosport and Auto Hebdo) and I think the intention is that all the races will be city-based street tracks. The intention is to convince the public at large of electric cars, and so they reckon that by taking the races of electric cars to the masses, this may persuade people to ditch the internal combustion in favour of cars that rely heavily on rare earth metals and strong acids that will need to be replaced at least a couple of times during the life-times of the cars, plus on distant power stations, many of which still rely on fossil fuels or nuclear radiation...


So in other words, they are less environmentally friendly than what they are intended to replace :lol:

I'm loving the rejectfulness already.

the mining equipment used to dig the lithium for the batteries pumps loads of nonsense into the air. ...and the carbon mining equipment... and the petroleum based plastics.
the driver will not change tyres or batteries, they will change car!

WHAT. thats just wasteful. i see expense is no issue in the FIA
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by AndreaModa »

Top Gear had an episode a few years back that compared the fuel economy of a Prius to that of an ordinary diesel car, I think it was an Audi A4 or something like that. Turned out of course that the diesel engine in fact delivered better fuel economy than the Prius, thereby emitting less harmful emissions, and not requiring a battery, as dr-baker has pointed out, full of rare earth metals.

I also remember James May going on about this in a feature on the future of cars in another older Top Gear and how battery-powered electric cars are not the answer. Instead we should be looking at hydrogen fuel cells and things like that.

People in the UK may have noticed the proliferation of electric car charging points at motorway service stations, and those as far as I'm aware are powered entirely by solar panels and wind turbines located on-site. It's therefore arguable that a solution like that is quite sustainable and appropriate, but again it doesn't solve the problem of the batteries themselves, the production methods required to manufacture them, and how often they need to be changed and the disposal of them.

I think there needs to be a lot more work before battery-powered cars make it into the mainstream.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Shadaza »

Environmental questions aside this line from autosport has my interest/
and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.


So in my head I have all sorts of wacky racer designs :twisted:. A series with an open slate has my interest, for science!
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by WaffleCat »

Shadaza wrote:Environmental questions aside this line from autosport has my interest/
and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.


So in my head I have all sorts of wacky racer designs :twisted:. A series with an open slate has my interest, for science!


So basically it's Can-Am,just modernised,less horsepower and much more silent.

I like it.Maybe.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

WaffleCat wrote:
Shadaza wrote:Environmental questions aside this line from autosport has my interest/
and will have an almost open rulebook - the main stipulation being a maximum battery weight of 300kg.


So in my head I have all sorts of wacky racer designs :twisted:. A series with an open slate has my interest, for science!


So basically it's Can-Am,just modernised,less horsepower and much more silent.

I like it.Maybe.

The articles I read last summer suggested that it will be a single-manufacturer series, but that the manufacturers bidding for the contract have an open brief for the design... And Lord Drayson's bid was the focus of the British article, and I think it was Mygale that was the focus of the French article.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by nome66 »

AndreaModa wrote:Top Gear had an episode a few years back that compared the fuel economy of a Prius to that of an ordinary diesel car, I think it was an Audi A4 or something like that. Turned out of course that the diesel engine in fact delivered better fuel economy than the Prius, thereby emitting less harmful emissions, and not requiring a battery, as dr-baker has pointed out, full of rare earth metals.

I also remember James May going on about this in a feature on the future of cars in another older Top Gear and how battery-powered electric cars are not the answer. Instead we should be looking at hydrogen fuel cells and things like that.

People in the UK may have noticed the proliferation of electric car charging points at motorway service stations, and those as far as I'm aware are powered entirely by solar panels and wind turbines located on-site. It's therefore arguable that a solution like that is quite sustainable and appropriate, but again it doesn't solve the problem of the batteries themselves, the production methods required to manufacture them, and how often they need to be changed and the disposal of them.

I think there needs to be a lot more work before battery-powered cars make it into the mainstream.

it was a Petrol M3 E92 V8 and the prius was driven fast as possible and all the M3 had to do was stay on pace. M3 got better economy
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

Autosport are a bit behind the times with this, only just announcing that di Grassi will be the development driver for this series... :?

Also, from this article:

Addax owner Alejandro Agag, one of a consortium of international investors taking charge of the series' commercial rights, said di Grassi would play an active role in the development of not just the car but also the series that is scheduled to start in 2014.

"For the championship, it is extremely important to have a driver like Lucas di Grassi working with us," he explained.

"He is probably the most experienced development driver in motor sport."

Really? Why do I doubt this?
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by nome66 »

He's always been a test driver because he never had enough skill to get into the big leagues
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

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Fetzie on Ferrari wrote:How does a driver hurtling around a race track while they're sous-viding in their overalls have a better understanding of the race than a team of strategy engineers in an air-conditioned room?l
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

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The cynic in me says that he won't live for too long, to see Formula E thrive. ;)
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »


What, really? I thought it was being posited at F3 level. Is F3 meant to rival F1 now because 3 > 1?
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

Ferrarist wrote:


The cynic in me says that he won't live for too long, to see Formula E thrive. ;)


We've already established that Bernie sold Brabham to the Devil himself in exchange for eternal life. Needless to say, Bernie got a much better deal out of it. :lol:
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

Wizzie wrote:
Ferrarist wrote:


The cynic in me says that he won't live for too long, to see Formula E thrive. ;)


We've already established that Bernie sold Brabham to the Devil himself in exchange for eternal life. Needless to say, Bernie got a much better deal out of it. :lol:


I didn't know that Middlebridge were the devil :lol:
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

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eurobrun wrote:I didn't know that Middlebridge were the devil :lol:


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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Aerospeed »



Wait, something FIA related that Ecclestone doesn't like??
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by madmark1974 »

James Allen has just published an interview with the promoter of Formula E, Alejandro Agag :

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/interview-the-man-with-a-plan-to-change-motorsport/

It looks like it's still going ahead, and still looking mighty rejectful! Here's what he has to say on the car swapping :

“If you look at the nature of the event, you cannot ask 25,000 people to come to a city venue for a 20 minute race. It’s not reasonable. You need to put on a show that is long enough for people to sit down and watch it, sit down in their houses and watch it. At least to get close to one hour.

“So a driver will have Car A and Car B. After around 30 minutes he will drop Car A, run a certain distance to his second car, race that, then come back to his first car, which has been on quick recharge and will be up to about 50% of the charge. So with 25 plus 25 plus 10 you are there at one hour.

“Of course we are showing an obvious limitation of electric cars, which is range. But over the years we will show the evolution of electric cars and batteries. And the video production people love it because it’s a new part of the show. We are going to try a lot of new things in this championship.”
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Pointrox »

I must say I'm quite enthusiastic about it, although this:
Drivers are going to switch cars during the race.

is an outrageous idea - to the point I'd pay to see that :D

No matter how rejectful it may seem to be, there's a certain advantage this series has.
Think about all the venues they can introduce, that other racing series couldn't because of the noise, pollution and costs.
I'm pretty sure people of, let's say, New Jersey that live near the course of Port Imperial Street Circuit would totally have Formula E over F1 :lol:
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by AndreaModa »

It does sound pretty cool actually, I'd definitely try and go and see it if they have a race in Britain.

That said, the idea of swapping vehicles mid-race is nothing new - MotoGP have been doing it for a good few years now since they brought in the new wet race rules. Riders can switch bikes to ones fitted with wet or dry tyres depending on what conditions the race started in, because the time it takes to change them on the same bike is prohibitively long in race conditions. They're only allowed to do that once though.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by DemocalypseNow »

Every time I see the title of this thread, I'm thinking that Vic Lee has entered a team and changed up his produce from dried flower to pills...
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Every time I see the title of this thread, I'm thinking that Vic Lee has entered a team and changed up his produce from dried flower to pills...


I thought I was the only one that thought Formula E sounded a bit illegal :lol: I will put that in my sig when I have a normal computer.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by nome66 »

Formula E sounds GREAT everything is GREAT RIGHT NOW GUYS OH MY GOD THIS SHIRT FEELS AMAAZZIIINNGGG....*slowly removes shirt*
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by madmark1974 »

Joey Zyla wrote:How is this rejectful?


Does the fact that they are claiming the cars will be able to run for 25 minutes before running out of 'steam' not sound a bit rejectful to you? - and that's if they can even achieve that long ...

I'm just imagining some Top-Gear kind of economy run, where they turn off everything possible in order to extend the battery life by one lap - then realise they've left the glovebox light on as they
grind to a halt just after the pit entrance. Disclaimer - I am presuming a glovebox won't actually be part of the final design. Or someone forgets to turn their Bluetooth off, etc.

I agree that, other than the limited cababilities of the technology available, it all looks quite interesting, and the fact that McLaren are involved gives it a lot more integrity.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

madmark1974 wrote:
Joey Zyla wrote:How is this rejectful?


Does the fact that they are claiming the cars will be able to run for 25 minutes before running out of 'steam' not sound a bit rejectful to you? - and that's if they can even achieve that long ...

And not only that but they cannot be refuelled and need to get into a different car twice in a one-hour race?
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by simonracer »

I don't understand why they can't have two races of 25 minutes or whatever, instead of one race where they swap cars halfway through. And also it should be a rule if your car drops out in the first part of the race you cannot restart in the second half.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by FantometteBR »

I guess some 'endurance' thing could come in handy for this 'switcheroo' part
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

FantometteBR wrote:I guess some 'endurance' thing could come in handy for this 'switcheroo' part

Yep, a 45-50 minute 'endurance' race... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by AndreaModa »

That's part of what makes it different though. If it was just a 25 minute race no-one would be interested so the change-over adds in some spice to the event and keeps it unique. They can turn it from being a disadvantage of electric vehicles in general into an exciting, strategic element into racing.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by dr-baker »

If it comes to London, I'll go to watch it. If it features in Autosport, I'll read about it. But unless drivers use it as a stepping stone in their career, in the same way that Hulkenberg and Piquet Jnr won races in A1GP on their way to F1, then I don't see it getting a big following or having much of a future.
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dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Faustus »

Interesting article in The Engineer about Formula E:

http://www.centaur2.co.uk/emags/theengi ... es/22.html
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Londoner »

Fetzie on Ferrari wrote:How does a driver hurtling around a race track while they're sous-viding in their overalls have a better understanding of the race than a team of strategy engineers in an air-conditioned room?l
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Re: Formula E Championship receives official FIA green light

Post by Ferrarist »

Am I the only one, who had to look up Putrajaya on Wikipedia? :lol:
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