Traditional Numbers

[Wallio]

Hey guys, I have what is probably a really really stupid question. Before we went to our current numbering system, teams had numbers they liked (Ferrari 27/28, Brabham 8/9 IIRC, etc). Everything I've read about them refers to them as a teams "Traditional" or "Favored" numbers, but I have found no reasoning ever given. Does anyone here know, or can anyone direct me to a site or book, that says for example why ferrari loved 27? Sorry if this is really N00bish, but its always bothered me.

[Salamander]

Hey guys, I have what is probably a really really stupid question. Before we went to our current numbering system, teams had numbers they liked (Ferrari 27/28, Brabham 8/9 IIRC, etc). Everything I've read about them refers to them as a teams "Traditional" or "Favored" numbers, but I have found no reasoning ever given. Does anyone here know, or can anyone direct me to a site or book, that says for example why ferrari loved 27? Sorry if this is really N00bish, but its always bothered me.

It's not that they 'loved' 27, it's just the number they were assigned due to the system. It was the last number Gilles Villeneuve had though, with which he won his last two races, and it came to be associated with him. And since Gilles Villeneuve is pretty much the poster boy for Ferrari, you get the idea.

[pasta_maldonado]

Hey guys, I have what is probably a really really stupid question. Before we went to our current numbering system, teams had numbers they liked (Ferrari 27/28, Brabham 8/9 IIRC, etc). Everything I've read about them refers to them as a teams "Traditional" or "Favored" numbers, but I have found no reasoning ever given. Does anyone here know, or can anyone direct me to a site or book, that says for example why ferrari loved 27? Sorry if this is really N00bish, but its always bothered me.

It's quite an interesting story. Ferrari in the late 70's had the numbers 11 and 12, but when Jody Scheckter won the championship, they then had the right to numbers 1 and 2 for 1980. But, 1980 proved to be a flop (so bad in fact that Scheckter retired), and Williams won the driver's championship. Williams had been using the numbers 27 and 28, and because Ferrari were the last champions, they swapped numbers. So, for 1981, Williams had the numbers 1 and 2 and Ferrari the numbers 27 and 28. When Villeneuve was tragically killed in 1982, the numbers gained a sentinmental value (there was a Ferrari driver who once reported that it was like there was someone else in the number 27, can't rember who). Of course, Ferrari didn't win the title again till after the new numbers system was introduced, so they never had to swap the numbers. Hope that helps

[Salamander]

Hey guys, I have what is probably a really really stupid question. Before we went to our current numbering system, teams had numbers they liked (Ferrari 27/28, Brabham 8/9 IIRC, etc). Everything I've read about them refers to them as a teams "Traditional" or "Favored" numbers, but I have found no reasoning ever given. Does anyone here know, or can anyone direct me to a site or book, that says for example why ferrari loved 27? Sorry if this is really N00bish, but its always bothered me.

It's quite an interesting story. Ferrari in the late 70's had the numbers 11 and 12, but when Jody Scheckter won the championship, they then had the right to numbers 1 and 2 for 1980. But, 1980 proved to be a flop (so bad in fact that Scheckter retired), and Williams won the driver's championship. Williams had been using the numbers 27 and 28, and because Ferrari were the last champions, they swapped numbers. So, for 1981, Williams had the numbers 1 and 2 and Ferrari the numbers 27 and 28. When Villeneuve was tragically killed in 1982, the numbers gained a sentinmental value (there was a Ferrari driver who once reported that it was like there was someone else in the number 27, can't rember who). Of course, Ferrari didn't win the title again till after the new numbers system was introduced, so they never had to swap the numbers. Hope that helps

Actually, they did swap the numbers for 1990, when Prost moved from McLaren, he took the 1 with him, being the champion. Of course, Senna went on to win the title that year, so Ferrari had the 27 back for 1991.

[AdrianSutil]

Didn't Tyrrell have 3 and 4 for many years? I remember Katayama had 4 in 1994. Back in 1995, I got into F1 and couldnt work out why a fairly poor Tyrrell had a higher number than Benetton and Ferrari!

[Barbazza]

When Villeneuve was tragically killed in 1982, the numbers gained a sentinmental value (there was a Ferrari driver who once reported that it was like there was someone else in the number 27, can't rember who)

That was Patrick Tambay after winning a race (though I can't remember which one) in 83 wasn't it?

[RonDenisDeletraz]

I can never really understand the old number system, but that is probably because it was changed to the current one before I was born.

[Nessafox]

Didn't Tyrrell have 3 and 4 for many years? I remember Katayama had 4 in 1994. Back in 1995, I got into F1 and couldnt work out why a fairly poor Tyrrell had a higher number than Benetton and Ferrari!

i think they had it since 1974, and because Tyrell never became champion again, they kept their numbers for quite a while.
Whilst the more recent teams often changed numbers because of other teams dissapearing, this didn't happen with Tyrrell.
Also Ligier had 26 since 1976, so that's a long-running number too.

[Shizuka]

When Villeneuve was tragically killed in 1982, the numbers gained a sentinmental value (there was a Ferrari driver who once reported that it was like there was someone else in the number 27, can't rember who)

That was Patrick Tambay after winning a race (though I can't remember which one) in 83 wasn't it?

Maybe it was San Marino?

[girry]

I don't think it had anything to do with Gilles' death, just the system that was in place?

Iirc the numbers were introduced in 1974 based on the previous year's constructor standings (Lotus 1-2, Tyrrell 3-4, Mclaren 5-6 etc) and after that the new drivers champion's team swapped numbers with the one who had them in the previous year, other numbers basically remained as they were; Tyrrell obviously never won anything anymore so that's why they retained their 3 and 4. 27 and 28 story is then, as a new team in the late 70's Williams were assigned high numbers and it just happened to be Ferrari who had 1 and 2 when Williams won their first title.

There were some exceptions too due to a few teams disappearing from the map and previously high numbered teams adopting theirs...personally I prefer the old system to the current one, it had some kind of traditional value for traditional teams.

[pasta_maldonado]

I can never really understand the old number system, but that is probably because it was changed to the current one before I was born.

There was no system excpet that the champions had 1 and 2.

[takagi_for_the_win]

I can never really understand the old number system, but that is probably because it was changed to the current one before I was born.

There was no system excpet that the champions had 1 and 2.

Yep, and if a new team became champions, they swapped numbers with the existing champs.

[Barbazza]

When Villeneuve was tragically killed in 1982, the numbers gained a sentinmental value (there was a Ferrari driver who once reported that it was like there was someone else in the number 27, can't rember who)

That was Patrick Tambay after winning a race (though I can't remember which one) in 83 wasn't it?

Maybe it was San Marino?

Yes, of course it was! Can't believe that I didn't work that out.

Here's an extract from David Tremayne's excellent 'Echoes of Imola' book where Patrick Tambay describes that victory.

"I drove that race in a dream. I don't know if you believe in metaphysics or whatever, but I swear it wasn't me driving that car that day. It felt as if Gilles was there with me, as if he was doing the work. All round the track there were banners saying things like 'Gilles and Patrick - two hearts, one number!'"

[Ferrim]

In the early days there was no fixed number system I believe, the cars numbers were even drawn for each event so they would change from race to race. In 1974 every team took numbers based on 1973's constructors standings, so Lotus were 1-2, Tyrrell 3-4 and so on. From then on, the #1 would follow the world champion wherever he went, and the other numbers always remained the same unless a team disappeared. For example, in 1989 Prost won the title and then went to Ferrari; Ferrari raced 1-2 and McLaren took 27 and 28. In fact, the number 27 only won 2 titles between 1980 and 1995 - in the only 2 years that Ferrari didn't use them!

I worked out once how the numbers would have run after 1995 - I think Alonso won for Renault in 2005 with 27, then Räikkönen in 2007 as well.

[Londoner]

Was there any real reason why the current numbering system was adopted? I miss the ridiculously high numbers.

[Nessafox]

Was there any real reason why the current numbering system was adopted? I miss the ridiculously high numbers.

like Lella Lombardi's #208!

[James1978]

I think it was worked out that Lewis Hamilton would have had #27 in 2008 too!

[dinizintheoven]

I worked out once how the numbers would have run after 1995 - I think Alonso won for Renault in 2005 with 27, then Räikkönen in 2007 as well.

I remember that, but beware (as I think you did) - there were occasional reassignments, such as in 1993 when Benetton were shunted from 19/20 to 5/6; as Nigel Mansell had rather inconveniently packed off to America, that should still have involved Williams (5/6) swapping places with McLaren (1/2). So I'm going to be a twonk and work it all out again, in a system where the only change is up the front, and as teams drop out their numbers are only filled by incoming teams. If there's a new team that's bought the slot of a previous entrant (e.g. Tyrrell - BAR - Honda etc) then the numbers remain.

I'll be back with it...

[Ataxia]

I worked out once how the numbers would have run after 1995 - I think Alonso won for Renault in 2005 with 27, then Räikkönen in 2007 as well.

I remember that, but beware (as I think you did) - there were occasional reassignments, such as in 1993 when Benetton were shunted from 19/20 to 5/6; as Nigel Mansell had rather inconveniently packed off to America, that should still have involved Williams (5/6) swapping places with McLaren (1/2). So I'm going to be a twonk and work it all out again, in a system where the only change is up the front, and as teams drop out their numbers are only filled by incoming teams. If there's a new team that's bought the slot of a previous entrant (e.g. Tyrrell - BAR - Honda etc) then the numbers remain.

I'll be back with it...

So I'd imagine that Button would have won with #3, as AFAIK Tyrrell then BAR then Honda wouldn't have had a number swap.

The interesting one would be Vettel in 2010...despite Stewart being a new entity would they have got Forti's numbers?

[dinizintheoven]

So I'd imagine that Button would have won with #3, as AFAIK Tyrrell then BAR then Honda wouldn't have had a number swap.

Correct.

The interesting one would be Vettel in 2010...despite Stewart being a new entity would they have got Forti's numbers?

How it panned out was that Forti got 11/12 when they entered in 1995, as those were the lowest numbers vacated (by Lotus). Hence, Stewart took 11/12 when Forti pulled out... leading to Seb winning his world title in car 11. Interestingly, 14 is a number that has adorned some shockingly rejectful efforts, as it always used to when it was for one-car teams.

The full lowdown:

1992 (as was): 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Brabham – 9/10 Footwork – 11/12 Lotus – 14/15 Fondmetal – 16/17 March – 19/20 Benetton – 21/22 Scuderia Italia – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Ligier – 27/28 Ferrari – 29/30 Larrousse – 32/33 Jordan – 34/35 Andrea Moda
1993: 0/2 Williams – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Footwork – 11/12 Lotus – 19/20 Benetton – 21/22 Scuderia Italia – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Ligier – 27/28 Ferrari – 29/30 Larrousse – 32/33 Jordan
1994: 0/2 Williams – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Footwork – 11/12 Lotus – 14/15 Simtek – 16/17 Pacific – 19/20 Benetton – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Ligier – 27/28 Ferrari – 29/30 Larrousse – 32/33 Jordan
1995: 1/2 Benetton – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Footwork – 11/12 Forti – 14/15 Simtek – 16/17 Pacific – 19/20 Williams – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Ligier – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Jordan
1996: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Arrows – 11/12 Forti – 19/20 Williams – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Ligier – 27/28 Benetton – 32/33 Jordan
1997: 1/2 Arrows – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Ferrari – 11/12 Stewart – 14/15 Lola – 19/20 Williams – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Prost – 27/28 Benetton – 32/33 Jordan
1998: 1/2 Williams – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Ferrari – 11/12 Stewart – 19/20 Arrows – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Prost – 27/28 Benetton – 32/33 Jordan
1999: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Ferrari – 11/12 Stewart – 19/20 Arrows – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Prost – 27/28 Benetton – 32/33 Jordan
2000: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Ferrari – 11/12 Jaguar – 19/20 Arrows – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Prost – 27/28 Benetton – 32/33 Jordan
2001: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Jaguar – 19/20 Arrows – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Prost – 27/28 Benetton – 32/33 Jordan
2002: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Jaguar – 14/15 Toyota – 19/20 Arrows – 23/24 Minardi – 27/28 Renault – 32/33 Jordan
2003: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Jaguar – 14/15 Toyota – 23/24 Minardi – 27/28 Renault – 32/33 Jordan
2004: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Jaguar – 14/15 Toyota – 23/24 Minardi – 27/28 Renault – 32/33 Jordan
2005: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 BAR – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toyota – 23/24 Minardi – 27/28 Renault – 32/33 Jordan
2006: 1/2 Renault – 3/4 Honda – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 BMW – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toyota – 16/17 Super Aguri – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Midland
2007: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Honda – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 BMW – 9/10 Renault – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toyota – 16/17 Super Aguri – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Spyker
2008: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Honda – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 BMW – 9/10 Renault – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toyota – 16/17 Super Aguri – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 McLaren – 32/33 Force India
2009: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Brawn – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 BMW – 9/10 Renault – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toyota – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Force India
2010: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Mercedes – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Renault – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Lotus – 16/17 Virgin – 18/19 Hispania – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Force India
2011: 1/2 Red Bull – 3/4 Mercedes – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 Renault – 11/12 McLaren – 14/15 Lotus – 16/17 Virgin – 18/19 Hispania – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Force India
2012: 1/2 Red Bull – 3/4 Mercedes – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 TTFKATBARSBGLAGC – 11/12 McLaren – 14/15 Caterham – 16/17 Marussia – 18/19 HRT – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Force India

Who's up for another one? This time, any team that changes its identity gets shunted to the end (including the Footwork-Arrows change where there wasn't a change in team management... was there?), the numbers are closed up, then any new teams get added to the end. Sauber in 2010 aren't a new team, it's those who come into the series completely from scratch who get the end numbers.

[dinizintheoven]

...and this is an odd one. So, if I wasn't clear before, how I've done it is, in this order:

(1) Directly swap the places of the outgoing 1/2 slot with the team that's replacing them there.
(2) Remove the teams that have dropped out.
(3) Shunt the teams that have changed their identity to the end of the queue, but in the order they were in before (which will make interesting reading for the 2006 season - Minardi were at the head of that queue at the end of 2005, by virtue of being Minardi for so long!)
(4) Add the new teams at the end, in the number order they were given in the real world.
(5) Renumber the lot.

And so...

1992 (as was): 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Brabham – 9/10 Footwork – 11/12 Lotus – 14/15 Fondmetal – 16/17 March – 19/20 Benetton – 21/22 Scuderia Italia – 23/24 Minardi – 25/26 Ligier – 27/28 Ferrari – 29/30 Larrousse – 32/33 Jordan – 34/35 Andrea Moda
1993: 0/2 Williams – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Footwork – 9/10 Lotus – 11/12 Benetton – 14/15 Scuderia Italia – 16/17 Minardi – 18/19 Ligier – 20/21 Ferrari – 22/23 Larrousse – 24/25 Jordan – 26/27 Sauber
1994: 0/2 Williams – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Footwork – 9/10 Lotus – 11/12 Benetton – 14/15 Minardi – 16/17 Ligier – 18/19 Ferrari – 20/21 Larrousse – 22/23 Jordan – 24/25 Sauber – 26/27 Simtek – 28/29 Pacific
1995: 1/2 Benetton – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Footwork – 9/10 Williams – 11/12 Minardi – 14/15 Ligier – 16/17 Ferrari – 18/19 Jordan – 20/21 Sauber – 22/23 Simtek – 24/25 Pacific – 26/27 Forti
1996: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Williams – 9/10 Minardi – 11/12 Ligier – 14/15 Benetton – 16/17 Jordan – 18/19 Sauber – 20/21 Forti – 22/23 Arrows
1997: 1/2 Arrows – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Williams – 9/10 Minardi – 11/12 Benetton – 14/15 Jordan – 16/17 Sauber – 18/19 Ferrari – 20/21 Prost – 22/23 Stewart – 24/25 Lola
1998: 1/2 Williams – 3/4 Tyrrell – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Arrows – 9/10 Minardi – 11/12 Benetton – 14/15 Jordan – 16/17 Sauber – 18/19 Ferrari – 20/21 Prost – 22/23 Stewart
1999: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Arrows – 7/8 Minardi – 9/10 Benetton – 11/12 Jordan – 14/15 Sauber – 16/17 Ferrari – 18/19 Prost – 20/21 Stewart – 22/23 BAR
2000: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Arrows – 7/8 Minardi – 9/10 Benetton – 11/12 Jordan – 14/15 Sauber – 16/17 Ferrari – 18/19 Prost – 20/21 BAR – 22/23 Jaguar
2001: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Arrows – 7/8 Minardi – 9/10 Benetton – 11/12 Jordan – 14/15 Sauber – 16/17 McLaren – 18/19 Prost – 20/21 BAR – 22/23 Jaguar
2002: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Arrows – 7/8 Minardi – 9/10 Jordan – 11/12 Sauber – 14/15 McLaren – 16/17 BAR – 18/19 Jaguar – 20/21 Renault – 22/23 Toyota
2003: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Minardi – 7/8 Jordan – 9/10 Sauber – 11/12 McLaren – 14/15 BAR – 16/17 Jaguar – 18/19 Renault – 20/21 Toyota
2004: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Minardi – 7/8 Jordan – 9/10 Sauber – 11/12 McLaren – 14/15 BAR – 16/17 Jaguar – 18/19 Renault – 20/21 Toyota
2005: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Minardi – 7/8 Jordan – 9/10 Sauber – 11/12 McLaren – 14/15 BAR – 16/17 Renault – 18/19 Toyota – 20/21 Red Bull
2006: 1/2 Renault – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 McLaren – 7/8 Ferrari – 9/10 Toyota – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toro Rosso – 16/17 Midland – 18/19 BMW – 20/21 Honda – 22/23 Super Aguri
2007: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Renault – 7/8 Ferrari – 9/10 Toyota – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toro Rosso – 16/17 BMW – 18/19 Honda – 20/21 Super Aguri – 22/23 Spyker
2008: 1/2 Ferrari – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Renault – 7/8 McLaren – 9/10 Toyota – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toro Rosso – 16/17 BMW – 18/19 Honda – 20/21 Super Aguri – 22/23 Force India
2009: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Renault – 7/8 Ferrari – 9/10 Toyota – 11/12 Red Bull – 14/15 Toro Rosso – 16/17 BMW – 18/19 Force India – 20/21 Brawn
2010: 1/2 McLaren – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Renault – 7/8 Ferrari – 9/10 Red Bull – 11/12 Toro Rosso – 14/15 Force India – 16/17 Sauber – 18/19 Mercedes – 20/21 Lotus – 22/23 Hispania – 24/25 Virgin
2011: 1/2 Red Bull – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Renault – 7/8 Ferrari – 9/10 McLaren – 11/12 Toro Rosso – 14/15 Force India – 16/17 Sauber – 18/19 Mercedes – 20/21 Lotus – 22/23 Hispania – 24/25 Virgin
2012: 1/2 Red Bull – 3/4 Williams – 5/6 Ferrari – 7/8 McLaren – 9/10 Toro Rosso – 11/12 Force India – 14/15 Sauber – 16/17 Mercedes – 18/19 TTFKATBARSBGLAGC – 20/21 Caterham – 22/23 HRT – 24/25 Marussia

An odd one, this was.

[Wallio]

Great stuff guys, thanks. It all makes sense once its explained, but seemed rather.....odd otherwise. Poor Tyrell, 30+ years of one set of numbers! Also Diniz, great work mate, love those "continuations" that pop up now and again on here.

[Ferrim]

The 1993 reshuffle was because numbers 7/8 had been vacated by Brabham. I guess the idea was to give 7/8 to Benetton, as they had big numbers but were a strong team. Why did McLaren end up running 7/8? Probably for the same reason that Ferrari ran 27/28 for so many years - they were "their numbers": 7/8 went for McLaren in 1978, precisely from Brabham, when Lauda joined them as reigning world champion. Those were McLaren's darkest years, and they would keep 7/8 until the 1984 season, when in a strange twist Lauda won the title for McLaren and the numbers returned to Brabham

This means that, between 1974 and 1992, only Brabham and McLaren used 7/8 - so it probably seemed logical that McLaren took over the numbers left by Brabham.

[James1978]

2012: 1/2 Red Bull – 3/4 Mercedes – 5/6 Williams – 7/8 Sauber – 9/10 TTFKATBARSBGLAGC – 11/12 McLaren – 14/15 Caterham – 16/17 Marussia – 18/19 HRT – 23/24 Toro Rosso – 27/28 Ferrari – 32/33 Force India

Interesting quirks here: Williams have ended up with their traditional 5 and 6 (and Nico Rosberg should have the #6 his father won the championship with in 06 - 09), and McLaren have ended up with the 11 and 12 from their dominant 1988 - bet Hamilton would have insisted on having Senna's number 12, with Button having Prost's (or James Hunt's!!) number 11.

[dinizintheoven]

Interesting quirks here: Williams have ended up with their traditional 5 and 6 (and Nico Rosberg should have the #6 his father won the championship with in 06 - 09), and McLaren have ended up with the 11 and 12 from their dominant 1988 - bet Hamilton would have insisted on having Senna's number 12, with Button having Prost's (or James Hunt's!!) number 11.

I once wrote a "preview" of the upcoming 2009 season (which was Marktin Brundell's first ever appearance, incidentally...) in which Lewis Hamilton had missed out on the 2008 WDC, having been bumped off the track by Heikki Kovalainen... Nico Rosberg replaced him, and Heikki's punishment was to be shunted to Prodrive, which isn't a million miles away from what happened at the end of 2009. Lewis stayed at McLaren anyway, but with the teams picking "traditional" numbers for the new season (giving Kimi Räikkönen number 27), McLaren ended up with 11 and 12. Why I picked Lewis to take number 11 I have no idea. I don't think I had my brain fully engaged.

This reality also isn't a million miles away from what realy happened in 2006, where Jenson Button was given 12 on his car as Rubens Barrichello arrived at Honda and said 11 was his "lucky number". We all know how that worked out.

[FullMetalJack]

and McLaren have ended up with the 11 and 12 from their dominant 1988 - bet Hamilton would have insisted on having Senna's number 12, with Button having Prost's (or James Hunt's!!) number 11.

I'd laugh if Button was given number 12. Lewis would probably snap and ROTY.

[gnrpoison]

Going with traditional numbers, I had a thought regarding the years 1987 - 1989 when the entrants expanded, how come Zakspeed went from 9 - 10 to the 34 and 35 which allowed Arrows who were 17 and 18 in 1988 to take up those numbers. I am aware why Rial, Osella changed due to expanding to two cars and AGS going for 40 and 41 as it was the reverse of 14 they had in 1988 so that seem logical. However I was always puzzled by the Zakspeed situation, I thought perhaps a rumour was they were leaving or sold the numbers for more funds and then had to take new numbers. It just seemed odd for theirs to change. Another was Larrouse moving from 29 and 30 to lower numbers but that could be more to do with 1992 having more entrants then 1993 and loads of teams changed numbers e.g. Benetton, Jordan, McLaren due to teams leaving the championship.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Having decided to dig this up, I'd assume that using Dinizintheoven's system, the 2013 numbers would be virtually unchanged except for Marussia taking the vacant 22/23 left by HRT, correct?

[Bleu]

Larrousse moving could well be because in early 1990s, new teams were mostly given biggest numbers in the field:

In 1990, Life was 39 (there were no 37-38 though, did Zakspeed or Rial withdraw very late or something like that?)
In 1991, Jordan was 32-33 and Modena 34-35
In 1992, Andrea Moda was 34-35
In 1993, Sauber was given the numbers left by Larrousse, eg. 29-30
In 1994, Simtek was 31-32 and Pacific 33-34

It was then changed when Forti got 21-22 for 1995 when Minardi, Ligier, Ferrari and Sauber had bigger numbers.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

I don't think it had anything to do with Gilles' death, just the system that was in place?

This is partially right: after some team disappeared, some numbers were redistributed and despite having option to change 27/28 to lower numbers, Ferrari chose to keep 27/28 because 27 became a traditional number.

[Nessafox]

Larrousse moving could well be because in early 1990s, new teams were mostly given biggest numbers in the field:

In 1990, Life was 39 (there were no 37-38 though, did Zakspeed or Rial withdraw very late or something like that?)

It could have something to do with Osella reverting to one car. In 1989 nr. 14 wasn't used, but in 1990 Osella did use it. I'm not sure, though.

[gnrpoison]

Anyone have information why Zakspeed seemed to change numbers quite frequently, even ending up with 9 and 10 at some point.

[pi314159]

Anyone have information why Zakspeed seemed to change numbers quite frequently, even ending up with 9 and 10 at some point.

They joined in 1985, using number 30. For 1986, they moved to the vacant number 14, but for the second car, they had to use the 29, since 15-28 were already occupied. Number 9 and 10 had been occupied by RAM Racing, who had withdrawn shortly before the 1986 season, and were used by Zakspeed in 1987 and 1988. But I honestly have no idea why they had to change to 34 and 35 for 1989. Maybe a late entry?

[mario]

Larrousse moving could well be because in early 1990s, new teams were mostly given biggest numbers in the field:

In 1990, Life was 39 (there were no 37-38 though, did Zakspeed or Rial withdraw very late or something like that?)
In 1991, Jordan was 32-33 and Modena 34-35
In 1992, Andrea Moda was 34-35
In 1993, Sauber was given the numbers left by Larrousse, eg. 29-30
In 1994, Simtek was 31-32 and Pacific 33-34

It was then changed when Forti got 21-22 for 1995 when Minardi, Ligier, Ferrari and Sauber had bigger numbers.

Zakspeed did make it through to pre-season testing in 1990 with a test hack known as the 891B, it seems - it looks like there is an old Autosprint article that noted Zakspeed attended a Pirelli tyre test at Estoril from the 11th-14th Jan 1990, and the FIA's deadline for entries was not until the end of January. However, Zakspeed were still using their old numbers at the time (the sole car that they took to Estoril had No. 34 on it) - even with their failure to submit an entry, it looks like that wouldn't entirely explain the matter.

[gnrpoison]

Anyone have information why Zakspeed seemed to change numbers quite frequently, even ending up with 9 and 10 at some point.

They joined in 1985, using number 30. For 1986, they moved to the vacant number 14, but for the second car, they had to use the 29, since 15-28 were already occupied. Number 9 and 10 had been occupied by RAM Racing, who had withdrawn shortly before the 1986 season, and were used by Zakspeed in 1987 and 1988. But I honestly have no idea why they had to change to 34 and 35 for 1989. Maybe a late entry?

I wonder if prequalifying had anything to do with it, because for 1989 Arrows took the 9 and 10 having been previously 17 and 18. Perhaps the FIA assigned them due to Arrows having a decent 88 as the numbers 11 - 18 with exception to the exchange of the champions from McLaren/Lotus and March's 15 and 16, I think all the other numbers changed.