Grand Prix Rejects

tBone wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 22:13

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 15:30 The Theodore team had two stints in F1.

(...)

Unique achievement?

March? And I guess officially you could mention manufacturers like Honda, Mercedes and Alfa Romeo, but those really weren't the same teams anymore.

I was actually referring to Tambay. Probably didn't make myself clear enough.

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022, 20:39

tBone wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 22:13

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 15:30 The Theodore team had two stints in F1.

(...)

Unique achievement?

March? And I guess officially you could mention manufacturers like Honda, Mercedes and Alfa Romeo, but those really weren't the same teams anymore.

I was actually referring to Tambay. Probably didn't make myself clear enough.

By referring to Tambay, I mean in the sense that Theodore had two stints in F1 and Tambay was their first driver in the first year of each stint, then asking if this was a unique achievement.

Fernando Alonso and his stats for the upcoming 2023 season is something I have been keeping an eye on:

Alonso will be the first to reach 20 seasons as a driver.
As it is he is sharing the current record of 19 with Schumacher, Barrichello and Raikkonen.

If Alonso scores two podiums in 2023 he will become the 6th driver in F1 to reach 100 podiums.
The other five are Hamilton, Schumacher, Vettel, Prost and Raikkonen.

Alonso already holds the record of most Grand Prix with 356 and should he not miss a race
in 2023 he will be up to 379 by the end of the season.

This season Alonso will also become the first driver to reach 20 000 Grand Prix laps raced.
He is currently the all-time leader with 19 153. The only driver with 19 000+.

Alonso will also become the first driver to reach 100 000 Grand Prix kilometres raced.
He is the all-time leader with 95 684 km.

Alonso will also extend his all-time record of longest interval between the first and last Grand Prix.
As he finishes the 23rd race of 2023 at Abu Dhabi in November, it will be 22 years, 8 months and 23 days between his first and last Grand Prix.

Should Alonso set a fastest lap, get a pole position or a win in 2023 he could also break Schumacher's and Raikkonen's records of longest interval between the first and last such event.
_______________________________________________________


Nico Hulkenberg will most likely move up the all-time lists of most Grand Prix without a win, most Grand Prix without a podium and most points without a win. He is currently 3rd, 1st and 1st respectively:

GP without a win
Andrea De Cesaris 208
Nick Heidfeld 183
Nico Hulkenberg 181

GP without a podium
Nico Hulkenberg 181
Adrian Sutil 128
Pierluigi Martini 118

Points without a win
Nico Hulkenberg 521
Lando Norris 428
Romain Grosjean 391
_____________________________________


If Kevin Magnussen fails to lead a lap in 2023 he will be the new record holder of having the most Grand Prix without leading a lap:
Martin Brundle 158
Kevin Magnussen 141
Eddie Cheever 132

_____________________________________

Lewis Hamilton needs 9 podiums in 2023 in order to become the first driver in F1 to reach 200 podiums.

Hamilton also needs at least 1 fastest lap in 2023 in order to tie Schumacher for most seasons with at least 1 fastest lap. Schumacher had 16 and Hamilton is currently at 15.

The last time Hamilton wasn't on the podium for the Bahrain Grand Prix was 2013. Finishing fifth as he did, this is the worst start for him in a season since he retired from the Australian Grand Prix in 2014. That year and 2009, when he finished fourth on the road but was later rightly disqualified, are the only two times he wasn't in the top five after the opening round. 2020 (4th) and 2013 (5th) are the only other times he wasn't on the podium in the opening round of the year. In opening rounds that makes it, out of 17 times, 12 podiums and three top-fives.

Mercedes are particularly interesting right now for unusual stats, seeing as their unending records are seemingly finally coming to an end. For example, the last time the team has had three consecutive races without a podium (such as they achieved at Saudi) was back in 2013, when Rosberg/Hamilton went four consecutive races without one (Italy to Japan that year). Otherwise you have to go back to 2012 and before for any continuation of "not winning everything all the time" results from Mercedes.

Since the beginning of 2014, Merc have been off the podium in 23/184 races. Off those anomalies, 10 have come since 2022.

From the annals of F1 History:

Eurobrun's first and last classified finishes were 13th places in North American races. (Mexico 1988 with Oscar Larrauri, United States 1990 with Roberto Moreno)

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 09:45 From the annals of F1 History:

Eurobrun's first and last classified finishes were 13th places in North American races. (Mexico 1988 with Oscar Larrauri, United States 1990 with Roberto Moreno)

With South American drivers who had Italian team-mates! (Larrauri from Argentina with Stefano Modena, Moreno from Brazil with Claudio Langes)

Not sure if this is more of a stat or a coincidence but in the 1996-2013 era of teams being numbered in the order in which they finished in the previous year's Constructor's Championship, Williams could have run every number lower than 20:

1 & 2 (1998)
3 & 4 (1997, 2003, 2004)
5 & 6 (1996, 1999, 2001, 2002)
7 & 8 (2005, 2008)
9 & 10 (2000, 2006, 2010 after promotion resulting from Toyota and BMW pulling out and Sauber having to re-enter)
11 & 12 (2011)
14 & 15 (Would and should have been 2010 as explained above)
16 & 17 (2007, 2009, 2013)
18 & 19 (2012)

Also, if the 2014 numbering system had been introduced when Pastor Maldonado was driving for Williams, they would have had #13 and completed the set!

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 10:39

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 09:45 From the annals of F1 History:

Eurobrun's first and last classified finishes were 13th places in North American races. (Mexico 1988 with Oscar Larrauri, United States 1990 with Roberto Moreno)

With South American drivers who had Italian team-mates! (Larrauri from Argentina with Stefano Modena, Moreno from Brazil with Claudio Langes)

In each case, the Italian team-mate didn't even pre-qualify!

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 11:55

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 10:39

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 09:45 From the annals of F1 History:

Eurobrun's first and last classified finishes were 13th places in North American races. (Mexico 1988 with Oscar Larrauri, United States 1990 with Roberto Moreno)

With South American drivers who had Italian team-mates! (Larrauri from Argentina with Stefano Modena, Moreno from Brazil with Claudio Langes)

In each case, the Italian team-mate didn't even pre-qualify!

Was there any reason why you couldn't include all of these stats in one post? No-one posted in-between them so you could've easily just edited your original post with everything you found out.

Also, no need to post the exact same things in multiple threads, especially if the other thread has been dormant for a long time (in this case, the "coincidences" thread was last active three and a half years ago). Just pick one topic to post in and don't worry if it's exactly the right one.

Digging up ancient threads and posting the same stuff over and over clogs up the forum unnecessarily.

In short, if you have something to say, pick one thread to say it in. And if you want to add something to your post, just make an edit unless someone else has posted in the same thread.

This is Alonso's strongest start to the season since 2007

Rob Dylan wrote: ↑23 Apr 2023, 10:34 This is Alonso's strongest start to the season since 2007

It's Aston Martin's strongest ever! Even better than 1999 when they were Jordan!

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑24 Apr 2023, 14:10

Rob Dylan wrote: ↑23 Apr 2023, 10:34 This is Alonso's strongest start to the season since 2007

It's Aston Martin's strongest ever! Even better than 1999 when they were Jordan!

Strictly speaking, the original entity - Force India Formula One Team Limited - went into administration in 2018, with the entity that is now known as AMR GP Limited (the holding company that runs the Aston Martin F1 Team) only being registered in 2018. Stroll bought the assets of the original team, but not the company itself or the holding company that held the entry rights - so it's officially an independent legal entity and not a continuation of the original team.

mario wrote: ↑25 Apr 2023, 21:38

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑24 Apr 2023, 14:10

Rob Dylan wrote: ↑23 Apr 2023, 10:34 This is Alonso's strongest start to the season since 2007

It's Aston Martin's strongest ever! Even better than 1999 when they were Jordan!

Strictly speaking, the original entity - Force India Formula One Team Limited - went into administration in 2018, with the entity that is now known as AMR GP Limited (the holding company that runs the Aston Martin F1 Team) only being registered in 2018. Stroll bought the assets of the original team, but not the company itself or the holding company that held the entry rights - so it's officially an independent legal entity and not a continuation of the original team.

Was there a buy-in fee at that point in time? And a follow-up if I may, is Stroll one of the people asking to increase the current buy-in from $200 million to $600 million?

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑26 Apr 2023, 14:26

mario wrote: ↑25 Apr 2023, 21:38

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑24 Apr 2023, 14:10

It's Aston Martin's strongest ever! Even better than 1999 when they were Jordan!

Strictly speaking, the original entity - Force India Formula One Team Limited - went into administration in 2018, with the entity that is now known as AMR GP Limited (the holding company that runs the Aston Martin F1 Team) only being registered in 2018. Stroll bought the assets of the original team, but not the company itself or the holding company that held the entry rights - so it's officially an independent legal entity and not a continuation of the original team.

Was there a buy-in fee at that point in time? And a follow-up if I may, is Stroll one of the people asking to increase the current buy-in from $200 million to $600 million?

I am not aware of Lawrence Stroll advocating for an increase in the buy in fee (at least, not in public).

With regards to paying a fee - whilst there was no buy in fee at the time, on the other hand the percentage of the prize money that Racing Point received under the 2018 contract system was also markedly lower than what they would receive now under the new prize money system.

You'd therefore not have had the same initial upfront capital cost, but on the other hand their prize money would have been around $35 million a year lower than what they would get now if they had the same results. It would depend where exactly the new team finished, but I'd say that around 6-7 years is about the point where your increased income would outweigh the initial upfront payment under the new prize fund structure.

mario wrote: ↑27 Apr 2023, 07:27It would depend where exactly the new team finished, but I'd say that around 6-7 years is about the point where your increased income would outweigh the initial upfront payment under the new prize fund structure.

Imagine being on the other end of the table to the potential investors "You should potentially, if all goes well, start to get your money back in around 6-7 years. Please sign here."

So then what was the advantage of not just taking over the entry?

Rob Dylan wrote: ↑28 Apr 2023, 07:50

mario wrote: ↑27 Apr 2023, 07:27It would depend where exactly the new team finished, but I'd say that around 6-7 years is about the point where your increased income would outweigh the initial upfront payment under the new prize fund structure.

Imagine being on the other end of the table to the potential investors "You should potentially, if all goes well, start to get your money back in around 6-7 years. Please sign here."

Well, basically the only teams that are worse off under the new prize fund structure are Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari - anybody else is ultimately better off in the longer term. In that sense, the rate of return on investment is probably the best it's been for quite some time.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑28 Apr 2023, 12:41 So then what was the advantage of not just taking over the entry?

Racing Point did originally want to buy the original team out to take over their entry, but because the creditors in Force India weren't prepared to sign a deal with Racing Point to sell them a controlling stake in Force India before the Belgian GP, Racing Point went down the route of buying out the assets instead. It wasn't that they didn't want to take over the original entry, but rather that the creditors were blocking them from taking over the original entry.

The 1990 Japanese Grand Prix is the most recent race with no Europeans on the podium. That got me thinking about how dominant Europe is in F1 these days.

There have only been six seasons in all the 73 completed seasons with no Europeans in the top two of the final standings. 1954, 1960, and 1967 have two non-Europeans in the top of the standings. The record for the most non-Europeans is three, in 1979, 1980, and 1981. Scheckter-Villenueve-Jones, Jones-Piquet-Reutemann, then Piquet-Reutemann-Jones respectively.

Jacques Villeneuve is still the most recent non-European to win the championship, and that's coming up to 30 years ago. If Perez doesn't win it this year, we all have to cross our fingers for Lance to Stroll his way to a title soon.

Rob Dylan wrote: ↑03 May 2023, 11:47 The 1990 Japanese Grand Prix is the most recent race with no Europeans on the podium. That got me thinking about how dominant Europe is in F1 these days.

There have only been six seasons in all the 73 completed seasons with no Europeans in the top two of the final standings. 1954, 1960, and 1967 have two non-Europeans in the top of the standings. The record for the most non-Europeans is three, in 1979, 1980, and 1981. Scheckter-Villenueve-Jones, Jones-Piquet-Reutemann, then Piquet-Reutemann-Jones respectively.

Jacques Villeneuve is still the most recent non-European to win the championship, and that's coming up to 30 years ago. If Perez doesn't win it this year, we all have to cross our fingers for Lance to Stroll his way to a title soon.

All due respect to Perez and Stroll (and Sargent, Tsunoda, and Zhou), but I think we're going to be waiting for some up and comer from the junior ranks. I don't follow closely enough, is there anyone on the way up we need to be watching for?

Some of the top non-Europeans:

Liam Lawson had five wins in F2 over two seasons - however none of them in feature races. Won also his first Super Formula race this year.

Felipe Drugovich is reigning F2 champion but I'm not very optimistic he can find a drive in F1 soon.

Enzo Fittipaldi had some great races last year in F2 but this season hasn't gone so well.

Ayumu Iwasa has won two F2 races this year, can be considered in contention for AlphaTauri drive next year along with Lawson.

Kush Maini didn't look too good in F3 but in F2 he has performed well. Might be the best unaffiliated junior driver right now.

Zane Maloney was 2nd in F3 last year. Moved to F2 and has had one podium so far. Probably needs another season in F2 after this one.

Gabriel Bortoleto has won both F3 feature races this year, but his previous resume doesn't look that good.

Bleu wrote: ↑04 May 2023, 13:43 Some of the top non-Europeans:

Liam Lawson had five wins in F2 over two seasons - however none of them in feature races. Won also his first Super Formula race this year.

Felipe Drugovich is reigning F2 champion but I'm not very optimistic he can find a drive in F1 soon.

Enzo Fittipaldi had some great races last year in F2 but this season hasn't gone so well.

Ayumu Iwasa has won two F2 races this year, can be considered in contention for AlphaTauri drive next year along with Lawson.

Kush Maini didn't look too good in F3 but in F2 he has performed well. Might be the best unaffiliated junior driver right now.

Zane Maloney was 2nd in F3 last year. Moved to F2 and has had one podium so far. Probably needs another season in F2 after this one.

Gabriel Bortoleto has won both F3 feature races this year, but his previous resume doesn't look that good.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑04 May 2023, 13:55

Bleu wrote: ↑04 May 2023, 13:43 Some of the top non-Europeans:

Liam Lawson had five wins in F2 over two seasons - however none of them in feature races. Won also his first Super Formula race this year.

Felipe Drugovich is reigning F2 champion but I'm not very optimistic he can find a drive in F1 soon.

Enzo Fittipaldi had some great races last year in F2 but this season hasn't gone so well.

Ayumu Iwasa has won two F2 races this year, can be considered in contention for AlphaTauri drive next year along with Lawson.

Kush Maini didn't look too good in F3 but in F2 he has performed well. Might be the best unaffiliated junior driver right now.

Zane Maloney was 2nd in F3 last year. Moved to F2 and has had one podium so far. Probably needs another season in F2 after this one.

Gabriel Bortoleto has won both F3 feature races this year, but his previous resume doesn't look that good.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Any relation to Arjun?

Red Bull's 11th win in a row, matching McLaren's 1988 record.

First British GP double-podium for the Brits since 1999.

Logan Sargeant's 11th is the best for an American driver since Scott Speed's 9th at Monaco in 2007.

Oscar Piastri's 4th matches Danny Ric's best result for McLaren, excluding Monza 2021 of course.

Hungary 2023 will be the first race to have two Aussies on the grid since Brazil 2013.

Lewis Hamilton broke a record today.
Longest interval between the first and the last pole position: 16 years, 1 month and 13 days (Canada 2007 - Hungary 2023).

Kimi was the previous record holder with 15 years, 2 months and 4 days (Europe 2003 - Italy 2018).
Prior to today Hamilton's interval was 14 years, 5 months and 26 days.

Max Verstappen could secure the title in the Sprint Race in Qatar.

Technically, this would mean he would equal Michael Schumacher's 2002 record of winning the title with 6 races to go.

He only needs to finish 6th or higher or, if he fails to score, have Perez finish 4th or lower.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't have thought I would be jinxing him this time.

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 09:55 Max Verstappen could secure the title in the Sprint Race in Qatar.

Technically, this would mean he would equal Michael Schumacher's 2002 record of winning the title with 6 races to go.

He only needs to finish 6th or higher or, if he fails to score, have Perez finish 4th or lower.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't have thought I would be jinxing him this time.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't mind if you did indeed jinx him.

dr-baker wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 12:29

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 09:55 Max Verstappen could secure the title in the Sprint Race in Qatar.

Technically, this would mean he would equal Michael Schumacher's 2002 record of winning the title with 6 races to go.

He only needs to finish 6th or higher or, if he fails to score, have Perez finish 4th or lower.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't have thought I would be jinxing him this time.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't mind if you did indeed jinx him.

Well, I unintentionally jinxed him last year, they say lightning never strikes twice....

That we have our first official podium trophy awarded to a driver born in a year starting with a two is concerning enough.

But also, with news of Oscar Piastri's new McLaren contract, when it ends he will be the same age as Jean Alesi was when he made his F1 debut. Sacre Bleu, strewth, etc.

dinizintheoven wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 15:30 That we have our first official podium trophy awarded to a driver born in a year starting with a two is concerning enough.

But also, with news of Oscar Piastri's new McLaren contract, when it ends he will be the same age as Jean Alesi was when he made his F1 debut. Sacre Bleu, strewth, etc.

Wow. Just... wow.

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 09:55 Max Verstappen could secure the title in the Sprint Race in Qatar.

Technically, this would mean he would equal Michael Schumacher's 2002 record of winning the title with 6 races to go.

He only needs to finish 6th or higher or, if he fails to score, have Perez finish 4th or lower.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't have thought I would be jinxing him this time.

He's done it!

Lewis Hamilton has finished in the championship:

1st (7 times)
2nd (3 times)
-
4th (3 times)
5th (2 times)
6th (1 time)

He has never finished third before, so this may be a career first for him! Although catching Perez is certainly still possible if Sergio continues his current form and Merc have some great races.


Otherwise, after that DSQ, a quick Wikipedia search tells me that this is the first time a Merc car has been DSQd from any championship race in F1 ever.

Anyone keen to see Lando break Nick Heidfeld's most podiums without a win?

Kuwashima wrote: ↑27 Oct 2023, 02:11 Anyone keen to see Lando break Nick Heidfeld's most podiums without a win?

Nice! It couldn’t happen to a nicer guy!

The real question is, will he break Johann Zarco's record from MotoGP that ended at 19

With Daniel Ricciardo breaking his 2023 points duck, it means that for the first time since 1993 & 1994 (22/25) we have had more than 20 point-scorers in a season two years running (21/21).

I have had a sudden morbid revelation brought on by His Holiness Lord Sir Lewis Of Stevenage whining that there isn't a Grand Prix in Africa so the World Championship shouldn't be a World Championship etc etc etc ad nauseam.

We all know about the South African Grand Prix, and most of us know why it's unlikely to be returning after its brief almost-after-Apartheid comeback from 1992-93, not least the imminent collapse of the host country. Most casuals will be completely unaware that two African countries have hosted a Grand Prix, the other being Morocco in 1958.

This raises a grim statistic: is Ain-Diab the only circuit - and in turn, is Morocco the only country - that has had a fatality at every Grand Prix it's ever hosted? Even if by "every Grand Prix" that means "the only time it happened".

I've already checked Pescara and every driver survived its one-off appearance.

Since the introduction of personal driver numbers in 2014, pairings of consecutive numbers have been rare. Here's every instance I know of so far, not including free practice driver numbers.
2014
Caterham - 9 (Ericsson) & 10 (Kobayashi)
Toro Rosso - 25 (Vergne) & 26 (Kvyat)
2017
Williams - 18 (Stroll) & 19 (Massa)
2021-22
McLaren - 3 (Ricciardo) & 4 (Norris)
2023
AlphaTauri - 21 (de Vries) & 22 (Tsunoda) for the first ten races of the season

dinizintheoven wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 19:58
This raises a grim statistic: is Ain-Diab the only circuit - and in turn, is Morocco the only country - that has had a fatality at every Grand Prix it's ever hosted? Even if by "every Grand Prix" that means "the only time it happened".

I've already checked Pescara and every driver survived its one-off appearance.

Wikipedia has a list of Formula 1 fatalities (practice, qualifying and racing), and within that, there is a list of number of fatalities per track. Morocco is indeed the only race venue where someone has died on all visits. However I cannot say the same for test-only facilities, being unaware how many times each has been visited for test purposes.

Interestingly Maria de Villota seems to missing from that list, even though her death can be attributed to her testing accident.