2013 Italian Grand Prix Thread

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 05 Sep 2013, 17:11

Excitement! Drama! Overtakes! Cars! Flags with horses on them! Corners! Pit stops! James Calado! DRS! Rain! Grass! Some or all of these things may be observed at the Italian Grand Prix, this weekend at Monza.

SeedStriker · Post by **SeedStriker** » 05 Sep 2013, 17:54

And we start with a provisional calendar for 2014 which includes not only 21 races, but the return of Austria (Red Bull Ring) and Mexico (Hermanos Rodriguez) and the inclusion of Rusia, leaving out NJ and India, being circulated to team bosses already in Monza.

apple2009 · Post by **apple2009** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:05

Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

rachel1990 · Post by **rachel1990** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:33

apple2009 wrote:Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

You say that now!!

However I am hoping that Monza will bring some magi back to f1

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:39

If that see-saw trend continues (Red Bull then Mercedes winning since Monaco), Mercedes will win at Monza! Can they do so?
At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?
What can Alonso do in that off the pace Ferrari in front of the Tifosi?
Lotus were the fastest cars in a straight line here in 2012. What can they do to revive their title chances?
Is McLaren going to punch above their weight at the track they won at last year?
Can Force India put their top speed strength to their advantage despite their downward slide?
How is Daniel Ricciardo going to perform in his Toro Rosso in his first race after signing for RBR or will JEV beat him?
Will Sauber deliberately DNQ for financial reasons a la Arrows at Magny-Cours in 2002?
Are Williams to add to their single point?
When can Giedo van der Garde repeat his previous heroics and can Caterham and Marussia threaten the midfield teams?

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:45

rachel1990 wrote:
apple2009 wrote:Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

You say that now!!

However I am hoping that Monza will bring some magi back to f1

What are you talking about? I've been following F1 for 12 years and whatever form it is in the magic is always there for me

Post by **Londoner** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:51

One of the so-called "classic" races Sky has been showing recently is Italy 2010. All I can say is...why? This was the race where the Bridgestone tyres were clearly made out of granite or some hard substance. Soft tyres that lasted the entire race with absolutely NO degradation whatsoever. The only interesting thing of note was Hamilton taking himself out on the opening lap. Add in the processional race and Jonathan Legard's commentary, I can't see why Sky picked this as a classic race.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:55

apple2009 wrote:Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

Clearly you never watched the 2010 Italian Grand Prix... *shudders*

That was a dark day for Formula 1.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 05 Sep 2013, 18:58

good_Ralf wrote:At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011.

There's the answer to your "weirdly".

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:07

rachel1990 wrote:
apple2009 wrote:Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

You say that now!!
However I am hoping that Monza will bring some magi back to f1

You dont need an action packed race for Monza to ooze history and atmosphere.

But it would be nice, though.

apple2009 · Post by **apple2009** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:08

Salamander wrote:
apple2009 wrote:Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

Clearly you never watched the 2010 Italian Grand Prix... *shudders*

That was a dark day for Formula 1.

You're joking, right?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:12

apple2009 wrote:
Salamander wrote:
apple2009 wrote:Formula One at Monza is always great, I can't wait!

Clearly you never watched the 2010 Italian Grand Prix... *shudders*

That was a dark day for Formula 1.

You're joking, right?

The race where the tyres might as well have been made of steel? Nope. That was a horrible joke of a race.

apple2009 · Post by **apple2009** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:12

Salamander wrote:
apple2009 wrote:
Salamander wrote:Clearly you never watched the 2010 Italian Grand Prix... *shudders*

That was a dark day for Formula 1.

You're joking, right?

The race where the tyres might as well have been made of steel? Nope. That was a horrible joke of a race.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:15

good_Ralf wrote:If that see-saw trend continues (Red Bull then Mercedes winning since Monaco), Mercedes will win at Monza! Can they do so?
At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?
What can Alonso do in that off the pace Ferrari in front of the Tifosi?
Lotus were the fastest cars in a straight line here in 2012. What can they do to revive their title chances?
Is McLaren going to punch above their weight at the track they won at last year?
Can Force India put their top speed strength to their advantage despite their downward slide?
How is Daniel Ricciardo going to perform in his Toro Rosso in his first race after signing for RBR or will JEV beat him?
Will Sauber deliberately DNQ for financial reasons a la Arrows at Magny-Cours in 2002?
Are Williams to add to their single point?
When can Giedo van der Garde repeat his previous heroics and can Caterham and Marussia threaten the midfield teams?

If that see-saw trend continues Mercedes will win at Monza! Can they do so?

Yes.

Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?

Hope not.

What can Alonso do in that off the pace Ferrari in front of the Tifosi?

Stuff all.

Lotus were the fastest cars in a straight line here in 2012. What can they do to revive their title chances?

Build a new car.

Is McLaren going to punch above their weight at the track they won at last year?

Can Force India put their top speed strength to their advantage despite their downward slide?

For Sutil, yes. For Milk, no.

How is Daniel Ricciardo going to perform in his Toro Rosso in his first race after signing for RBR or will JEV beat him?

He will bin it, and JEV will beat him.

Will Sauber deliberately DNQ for financial reasons a la Arrows at Magny-Cours in 2002?

Yes, and not only that, Monisha will also be seen in Bernie's motorhome. :shock:

Are Williams to add to their single point?

Within five years? Yes. This weekend? No.

When can Giedo van der Garde repeat his previous heroics and can Caterham and Marussia threaten the midfield teams?

Watch Giedo this Saturday, dude! And Caterham and Marussia are already ahead of the midfield teams! In worldwide popularity, at least.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:16

East Londoner wrote:One of the so-called "classic" races Sky has been showing recently is Italy 2010. All I can say is...why? This was the race where the Bridgestone tyres were clearly made out of granite or some hard substance. Soft tyres that lasted the entire race with absolutely NO degradation whatsoever. The only interesting thing of note was Hamilton taking himself out on the opening lap. Add in the processional race and Jonathan Legard's commentary, I can't see why Sky picked this as a classic race.

Classics they should have chosen

1988 - Ferrari 1-2 after the death of the Enzo
1995 - 5 of the top 6 go out, with Herbert winning
1996 - Schumi's first Monza win
1999 - Hakkinen gets upset over binning a win
2001 - Can Monty's maiden victory count, please
2004 - Ferrari 1-2 but a muddled race at some stages
2008 - Vettel's first victory in the only wet modern GP

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:25

good_Ralf wrote:At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?

That was only because the Red Bull was SO much better than everyone else's car that year

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:51

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?

That was only because the Red Bull was SO much better than everyone else's car that year

But I don't understand how despite having the best car in 2010, Red Bull were relatively uncompetitive, P4 and P6.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:51

According with F1 weather, the race will be in wet conditions. We already have a ROTR contender.

Post by **Londoner** » 05 Sep 2013, 19:55

good_Ralf wrote:
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?

That was only because the Red Bull was SO much better than everyone else's car that year

But I don't understand how despite having the best car in 2010, Red Bull were relatively uncompetitive, P4 and P6.

That's because Red Bull in 2010 were incredibly incompetent, which nearly saw them throw away both championships that year.

Post by **mario** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:04

good_Ralf wrote:If that see-saw trend continues (Red Bull then Mercedes winning since Monaco), Mercedes will win at Monza! Can they do so?
At their very much weakest track, Red Bull were off the pace in 2009, 2010 and 2012 but weirdly were totally dominant in 2011. Will this be their race again?
What can Alonso do in that off the pace Ferrari in front of the Tifosi?
Lotus were the fastest cars in a straight line here in 2012. What can they do to revive their title chances?
Is McLaren going to punch above their weight at the track they won at last year?
Can Force India put their top speed strength to their advantage despite their downward slide?
How is Daniel Ricciardo going to perform in his Toro Rosso in his first race after signing for RBR or will JEV beat him?
Will Sauber deliberately DNQ for financial reasons a la Arrows at Magny-Cours in 2002?
Are Williams to add to their single point?
When can Giedo van der Garde repeat his previous heroics and can Caterham and Marussia threaten the midfield teams?

Starting from the top, Mercedes can in theory win this race given that this has tended to be one of their stronger tracks and historically they have tended to do reasonably well at the lower downforce tracks (for example, they were fairly strong in Canada too).
However, Red Bull were also extremely strong in Spa and, unusually, were reasonably quick through the speed traps too, mainly because they were able to run a lower downforce package than their rivals (especially when compared to Mercedes). Ferrari have also tended to look stronger in low to medium downforce trim too - they performed well in Spa where they also opted for a lower downforce package than Mercedes seemed to go for.

Both of those outfits are likely to be in the mix this weekend, so it is not entirely clear who might have an advantage this weekend. Ferrari are definitely under pressure to deliver for Monza - Alonso has admitted that, if Ferrari cannot beat Vettel in both the Italian and Singapore GP's, Ferrari will abandon their 2013 campaign and focus on 2014 instead. They will be desperate to beat Vettel by as large a margin as possible, even if Alonso has been increasingly downcast in recent races.

As for Lotus, their chances of success are likely to depend on how quickly they can dial in the extended wheelbase version of their car and the change in front suspension geometry that it has lead to. They are likely to be there or thereabouts on race day but, given their usual poor qualifying pace, it is also possible that they could find themselves too far back and possibly caught up in an accident in the first corner (given the usual concertina effects at the start). Furthermore, Lotus's main strengths have been in medium to high speed corners this season - although the Lesmos and Ascari will perhaps favour them, the rest of the circuit doesn't really play to their strengths.

McLaren could possibly be reasonably competitive here too - the combination of low downforce and a relatively smooth surface should mask some of the problems McLaren have had this year with porpoising and instability under braking. Although not really challenging for the front in Spa, Button's 6th place was pretty solid (only 7 seconds off Webber) - another top 6 position is plausible under those circumstances.

Force India, meanwhile, were a little stronger in Spa but still struggled a little to make up ground - I can see them scoring more points here, especially given that di Resta showed in Canada that the team were fairly strong at rear traction limited circuits, but McLaren is likely to be stronger here too.

As for Ricciardo, I hope that he doesn't let the pressure get to him for this race - the best thing that he could hope for would be a fairly quiet, clean weekend where he can score a few points. Elsewhere in the midfield, Sauber won't intentionally DNQ for this weekend - they aren't quite that desperate yet - but I think that they'll struggle to repeat Perez's heroics last year given that their current car doesn't seem as kind on its tyres (Hulkenberg was complaining of heavy rear tyre wear in Spa and had to pit very early in the first stint).

As for Williams, to be honest I don't think they'll be adding much, if any, points this weekend - their best hope might simply be a race of attrition. Similarly, Caterham and Marussia probably won't be repeating their heroics either - Marussia in particular are likely to struggle given that their electronic equipment back at base has been destroyed due to a fire, so they won't be able to send data back to base for analysis. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ox ... e-23976433

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:14

Thanks very much for your contribution, mario, your posts are the most detailed and articulate on here.

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:15

[quote="East Londoner]That's because Red Bull in 2010 were incredibly incompetent, which nearly saw them throw away both championships that year.[/quote]

Basically Mclaren 2012 the difference being they got both titles at the last moment

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:18

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:
East Londoner wrote:That's because Red Bull in 2010 were incredibly incompetent, which nearly saw them throw away both championships that year.

Basically Mclaren 2012 the difference being they got both titles at the last moment

ha ha, so true mate, I had great fun in having some banter with a friend of mine whose got a reletive working for Mclaren :lol:

apple2009 · Post by **apple2009** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:19

good_Ralf wrote:Thanks very much for your contribution, mario, your posts are the most detailed and articulate on here.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:19

Dj_bereta wrote:According with F1 weather, the race will be in wet conditions. We already have a ROTR contender.

I'm thankful that it was hot and dry when I was there 2 years ago...

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 05 Sep 2013, 20:21

Dj_bereta wrote:According with F1 weather, the race will be in wet conditions. We already have a ROTR contender.

Also anyone who thinks someone else will win this race because of Red Bull's poor form here.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 06 Sep 2013, 04:18

dr-baker wrote: I'm thankful that it was hot and dry when I was there 2 years ago...

The circuit...or the grid girls?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 06 Sep 2013, 06:40

Dj_bereta wrote:According with F1 weather, the race will be in wet conditions. We already have a ROTR contender.

What? The weather? Surely hot and dry conditions would be rejectful as that generally produces the kind of races some fans on here dislike i.e boring and processional. Personally, at tracks like Monza, a processional race is still a pleasure to watch but a wet and wild race is great fun anywhere. And, hey, if it gives some other drivers a chance to compete with Vettel it might reduce the moaning on here afterwards.

It always amuses me when people repeatedly moan about Vettel repeatedly winning. I know irony isnt for everyone but...

rachel1990 · Post by **rachel1990** » 06 Sep 2013, 08:42

CoopsII wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:According with F1 weather, the race will be in wet conditions. We already have a ROTR contender.

What? The weather? Surely hot and dry conditions would be rejectful as that generally produces the kind of races some fans on here dislike i.e boring and processional. Personally, at tracks like Monza, a processional race is still a pleasure to watch but a wet and wild race is great fun anywhere. And, hey, if it gives some other drivers a chance to compete with Vettel it might reduce the moaning on here afterwards.

It always amuses me when people repeatedly moan about Vettel repeatedly winning. I know irony isn't for everyone but...

Its not him winning that bugs me its the lack of competition from everyone else.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Sep 2013, 10:54

Jocke1 wrote:
dr-baker wrote: I'm thankful that it was hot and dry when I was there 2 years ago...

The circuit...or the grid girls?

The grid girls? Dry? They'll want to cool down with a nice bucket of water!

Post by **Londoner** » 06 Sep 2013, 13:51

In a shocking turn of events, Mark Webber suffered a KERS problem in second practice.

Looks like standard procedures for Sunday, with Vettel 6 tenths clear of everyone else. This is looking ominously like 2011 all over again.

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 06 Sep 2013, 13:59

East Londoner wrote:In a shocking turn of events, Mark Webber suffered a KERS problem in second practice.

Looks like standard procedures for Sunday, with Vettel 6 tenths clear of everyone else. This is looking ominously like 2011 all over again.

Where's your optimism? It's only Friday so don't read too much into these times. The other teams may just be luring him into a easy win. Can we please have more R2-D2's and less C-3PO's please?

And before you ask yes I did read the timesheets

Post by **Londoner** » 06 Sep 2013, 14:03

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:
East Londoner wrote:In a shocking turn of events, Mark Webber suffered a KERS problem in second practice.

Looks like standard procedures for Sunday, with Vettel 6 tenths clear of everyone else. This is looking ominously like 2011 all over again.

Where's your optimism? It's only Friday so don't read too much into these times. The other teams may just be luring him into a easy win. Can we please have more R2-D2's and less C-3PO's please?

And before you ask yes I did read the timesheets

I sold it to a Cockney pearly king in East London for 50p.

But at first glance you have to say Red Bull look scarily quick around Monza. I'm not holding out much hope at the moment, but then again there is the small possibility of their race being a complete failure ala last year.

apple2009 · Post by **apple2009** » 06 Sep 2013, 14:06

A lot of hate for Red Bull here.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 06 Sep 2013, 15:30

apple2009 wrote:A lot of hate for Red Bull here.

The only people who have genuine hate for Red Bull Racing are fu.ckwits who's opinions are not to be taken too seriously.

If anyone feels aggrieved they should, perhaps, direct their annoyance at the other teams who seem unable to make their cars go as quick. Last time I looked I thought the idea of F1 was to make a car go fast and win races. Seems like RBR know how to do that better than the others at the moment.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 06 Sep 2013, 16:15

CoopsII wrote:Last time I looked I thought the idea of F1 was to make a car go fast and win races. Seems like Adrian Newey knows how to do that better than the others at the moment.

Fixed. After all, Newey is the best F1 designer by miles.

Post by **Ataxia** » 06 Sep 2013, 16:30

good_Ralf wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Last time I looked I thought the idea of F1 was to make a car go fast and win races. Seems like Adrian Newey knows how to do that better than the others at the moment.

Fixed. After all, Newey is the best F1 designer by miles.

Newey isn't responsible for the whole car. There's hundreds of other people at the factory who design, build and engineer the cars to the highest level, and there's the race team who are able to set up the car the best. Sure, Newey heads up the design operation, but he's not the sole contributing factor and it's unfair to give him all the credit.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 06 Sep 2013, 16:39

Ataxia wrote:Newey isn't responsible for the whole car. There's hundreds of other people at the factory who design, build and engineer the cars to the highest level, and there's the race team who are able to set up the car the best. Sure, Newey heads up the design operation, but he's not the sole contributing factor and it's unfair to give him all the credit.

This. It is, after all, a team sport. And yet thickos choose to send the bad vibes Vettels way :roll:

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 06 Sep 2013, 16:41

good_Ralf wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Last time I looked I thought the idea of F1 was to make a car go fast and win races. Seems like Adrian Newey knows how to do that better than the others at the moment.

Fixed. After all, Newey is the best F1 designer by miles.

That's not funny at all. CoopsII is right. If we want to criticize anyone we should be doing it to Lotus and Ferrari who can't qualify Mercedes who can't match the race pace and Mclaren who made a big mistake

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 06 Sep 2013, 16:43

Apologies again. What I say on here always seems to get me into trouble.

(runs away, back later)