The ASMF Canon Council Topic

[Aerond]

If this goes ahead, I'd like to see that all the circuits comply with FE circuit lenght regulations

[Miguel98]

If this goes ahead, I'd like to see that all the circuits comply with FE circuit lenght regulations

What are those regulations?

[DemocalypseNow]

If this goes ahead, I'd like to see that all the circuits comply with FE circuit lenght regulations

What are those regulations?

As far as I can tell, there aren't any - while most FE tracks tend to be in the 2-4km range, nothing set out in the FIA Formula E Sporting Regulations mentions restrictions regarding track length, only race distance and duration (i.e. races must be longer than 60km but not exeed 60 minutes + 1 final lap.

[Ataxia]

To finish my Indycar pitch, I've come up with the bare bones for a storyline that ties everything together, as well as a provisional calendar.

I want to take the real-life Indycar results up to the end of 2016 and use them as the historical basis for this alternate series. I realise that this presents an issue as some drivers have raced in Formula 1 instead, and so I wish to consult with the council in order to determine sensible "replacements" for these drivers. When this is done, I will attempt to catalogue all of the results on the wiki.

Why is this important? There are a number of sponsorship conditions which require certain past results, and so I want to make it easy for everyone participating to find this information.

We have F1RICS as well and I propose making this a breakaway series from the real Indycar, due to unhappiness with the control chassis arrangement. Perhaps neatly, this became defunct at the end of 2016.

This then leaves the question of 2017 and 2018. There are a few options we have, and the most obvious is just a simple hiatus. However, this does raise a few issues and so I'd need help in determining a good reason for a two-year break other than "one person couldn't run the series and their successor was the product of a botched lobotomy". Another option is a retrospective winter series between 2017/18, kinda like a condensed version of IRL's 96-97 season after the breakaway from CART.

Lastly, I have a provisional calendar for 2019 sorted, taking inspiration from past CART calendars and the more contemporary schedules in Indycar.

1. Firestone Grand Prix of St. Petersburg, Streets of St. Petersburg, Florida - March 10
2. Tecate Grand Prix of Monterrey presented by Banamex, Fundidora Park, Monterrey, Mexico - March 24
3. 43rd Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, Streets of Long Beach, California - April 7
4. Brookstone Indy 225, New Hampshire Motor Speedway, Loudon, New Hampshire [oval] - April 14
5. Books-A-Million Grand Prix of Alabama, Barber Motorsports Park, Birmingham, Alabama - April 28
6. HHGregg Grand Prix of Indianapolis, Indianapolis Motor Speedway Road Course, Indiana - May 11
7. 101st Indianapolis 500, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Indiana [oval] - May 26
8. Direct Supply Milwaukee 225 presented by Kopp's Frozen Custard, Milwaukee Mile, West Allis, Wisconsin [oval] - June 9
9. Iowa Corn 300, Iowa Speedway, Newton, Iowa [oval] - June 23
10. Smucker's Indy 200, Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, Lexington, Ohio - July 7
11. Honda Indy Toronto, Exhibition Place, Toronto, Canada - July 21
12. Chevrolet Grand Prix at the Glen, Watkins Glen International, New York - August 4
13. AT&T Grand Prix of the Americas, Circuit of the Americas, Austin, Texas - August 18
14. Firestone 600, Texas Motor Speedway, Fort Worth, Texas [oval] - August 25
15. Mockett Furniture Hardware Grand Prix of Sonoma, Sonoma Raceway, California - September 8
16. Qualcomm 500, Auto Club Speedway, Fontana, California [oval] - September 15
17. Mazda SKYACTIV Grand Prix of Monterey, Laguna Seca, California - September 22

[Normal32]

I wanted to run a Macau one-off event at the tail end of 2018, so i might as well post my plans to see for anyone to see if it's okay.

Teams:

Teams that can participate are teams that are ranked in the top 7 of AutoReject 2.0, and top 6 of Formula 3. If a team owner doesn't respond or refuses to participate, their entry will go to next person on the line of the series, and so on. Should you not want to use the original team, you can create a one-off Asian-based team.
Due to the limitations of Grand Prix 2, only 13 teams can compete in the series, meaning uneven distribution between serieses. I gave the extra team to AutoReject 2.0 on the basis that is supporting a AutoReject event. Speaking of AutoReject 2.0, only teams participating in the Post-Season Test will be allowed to participate in the Macau event.

The entry list will be determined by the final standings of AutoReject 2.0 and the Formula Three entries will be determined by the standings after the Abu Dhabi round.

Colour coding:

Green - guaranteed entry
Yellow - may have entry depending on circumstances
Red - no chance of entry


AR2.0 Invitees - final:


1. Vivendi EBL
2. Ecurie Prenois
3. Definitely Maybe Racing
4. RonDen Racing Engineering
5. ICE-3 Racing
6. Nurminen Racing Engineering
7. NISMO Academy Voeckler
8. Driver Perfomance Laboratory
9. Venturi Racing
10. Quicktech Engineering
11. Plus One Racing Engineering
12. Equipe Gauthier
13. Ansett Australia Rosenforth

F3 Invitees - to be determined:

1. Scuderia Adriatica
2. Nebula Grand Prix
3. Jones Racing Team
4. Union Saver Developments
5. Status Grand Prix
6. Melrose Racing Team
7. FXS Racing
8. Marcelli Motori
9. Linton-Solidahl Racing

Drivers:

You can hire any driver at least 15 years old by the time the race is run. If you want some guidance, here's some of the main series that will count towards ratings, in no particular order:

1. AutoReject 2.0
2. Formula Three
3. Formula 5000
4. Super Auto Nippon Drivers Winter Championship
5. SEAT Leon Supercopa

If a series is not neither above or below, it is allowed, but it has less efect on ratings.

F2, AR3.5, F1, ARWS and IPC drivers are not allowed.

Driver's perfomance will be based on previous sucess in canon.

Weekend:

There will be a 20-minute qualifying session which will determine the grid of the race, run at 170km.

Cars:

The car will be provided by Dallara, which will be called MF18 - i might think of introducing a revision for 2019.

Engines:

There will be three engine manufacturers: one weak but reliable and light, one average and one powerful but unreliable and heavy. Wherever who are these is up to debate, and i am more than willing to take suggestions.

These engines will be about the same level as Formula Three is.

Other:

This race will be run on Grand Prix 2, with randomized weather. (given that this is Macau in November, i calculate a 15% chance of rain.)

If you have any improvements/suggestions etc., they are more than welcome. Open to discussion.

[AndreaModa]

I like it. Similar to the Macau Junior Masters.

If I'm allowed in, then definitely count me in to take part.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

This goes hand in hand with my grand plans for Status/Theodore, so you can expect Theodore Racing to make an entry!

I don't have any grand plans, I'm just trying to seem important.

[Nuppiz]

Doesn't Grand Prix 2 have 14 teams though? A couple of DNQs shouldn't hurt that much in a non-championship event.

[kevinbotz]

Given that a considerable amount of time has passed since the last comment was posted on this thread, voting will now open on the following items. As three council members have already tacitly approved of Miguel's Formula E proposal by making a commitment to the series, Formula E will not be subject to voting and shall be considered to have been designated as canon by proxy.

Proposal One: Ataxia's IndyCar series to be designated as canon.
Proposal Two: The 1998 RTCC season to be excluded from canon.
Proposal Three: Normal's Macau one-off to be approved.

I'll kick off voting, as before:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Abstain

[CaptainGetz12]

Given that a considerable amount of time has passed since the last comment was posted on this thread, voting will now open on the following items. As three council members have already tacitly approved of Miguel's Formula E proposal by making a commitment to the series, Formula E will not be subject to voting and shall be considered to have been designated as canon by proxy.

Proposal One: Ataxia's IndyCar series to be designated as canon.
Proposal Two: The 1998 RTCC season to be excluded from canon.
Proposal Three: Normal's Macau one-off to be approved.

I'll kick off voting, as before:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Abstain

Can I ask why the old RTCC is being kicked from canon?

Also, haven't we already made the Macau one-offs canon?

[Miguel98]

Given that a considerable amount of time has passed since the last comment was posted on this thread, voting will now open on the following items. As three council members have already tacitly approved of Miguel's Formula E proposal by making a commitment to the series, Formula E will not be subject to voting and shall be considered to have been designated as canon by proxy.

Proposal One: Ataxia's IndyCar series to be designated as canon.
Proposal Two: The 1998 RTCC season to be excluded from canon.
Proposal Three: Normal's Macau one-off to be approved.

I'll kick off voting, as before:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Abstain

Can I ask why the old RTCC is being kicked from canon?

Also, haven't we already made the Macau one-offs canon?

Because RTCC at 1998 is worthless. It adds nothing to canon. And more than hopefully, WTCM will replace what RTCC did in 1998.

Regarding the Macau One-Off... Well, RRR did it, but Normal doesn't know if he's doing it anymore, so he's going to create the equivalent of the Macau F3 starting from 2018 onwards.

[Nuppiz]

Can I ask why the old RTCC is being kicked from canon?

Because certain people didn't think of the possible overall picture (the canon structure didn't exist yet) when entering drivers there. Thus creating a situation where drivers currently in their 20s/early 30s were somehow already competing in 1998.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Can I ask why the old RTCC is being kicked from canon?

Because certain people didn't think of the possible overall picture (the canon structure didn't exist yet) when entering drivers there. Thus creating a situation where drivers currently in their 20s/early 30s were somehow already competing in 1998.

That is pretty much the reason I argued for the Big Car championship to be designated as non canon, which from memory went down like a lead balloon at the time.

At the very least, I would like Jason Hamilton to be rewritten out of the category, sorry for bringing up an old issue but I do plan to update a few of my drivers on the wiki

[Klon]

That is pretty much the reason I argued for the Big Car championship to be designated as non canon, which from memory went down like a lead balloon at the time.

You remember wrong. That series is non-canon and has been for quite some while.

Votes:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

To make sure it doesn't get lost under my new job, I already want to address a potential topic for the next vote: limiting the number of teams an entity can have in canon. Details to follow.

[Ataxia]

Can we hold fire on the verdict of Indycar for a few weeks? I'll be honest, I'm currently having cold feet about doing it, from a) a time management perspective and b) issues with conduct in others trying to claim teams early.

[kevinbotz]

At Ataxia's request, voting on the Indycar proposal will be deferred until further notice.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

That is pretty much the reason I argued for the Big Car championship to be designated as non canon, which from memory went down like a lead balloon at the time.

You remember wrong. That series is non-canon and has been for quite some while.

Okay good news, I missed that decision obviously

[Ataxia]

Can we hold fire on the verdict of Indycar for a few weeks? I'll be honest, I'm currently having cold feet about doing it, from a) a time management perspective and b) issues with conduct in others trying to claim teams early.

After some discussion, I'm going to throw myself into doing this. I'm pretty sure I can make it work time-wise, and in the interests of fairness people will have to apply to run teams rather than try to snatch them at the start.

So, I guess you guys can carry on as you were.

[Rated]

Votes:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

To make sure it doesn't get lost under my new job, I already want to address a potential topic for the next vote: limiting the number of teams an entity can have in canon. Details to follow.

I'm interested.

[DemocalypseNow]

I would also like to point out that so long as IndyCar goes ahead, I intend to run its feeder series. Whether it would be called Indy Academy, as was once planned, or Atlantics, or whatever it may be, the mod is already prepped and working - it'll be the same one currently in use for Volant Elf, the one originally set up and in place for Indy Academy in 2017.

There is one caveat however; a grid capped at 20 cars. It's become clear after much trial and error that my current equipment can't handle more than that capacity when it comes to on-track competitors.

Volant Elf was intended to act as a proof of concept, and the mod seems to be working well. The only thing to watch out for is Long Beach, where the test race was a bit of an omnishambles with all the crashing and driver mistakes

[Nuppiz]

I would also like to point out that so long as IndyCar goes ahead, I intend to run its feeder series. Whether it would be called Indy Academy, as was once planned, or Atlantics, or whatever it may be, the mod is already prepped and working - it'll be the same one currently in use for Volant Elf, the one originally set up and in place for Indy Academy in 2017.

There is one caveat however; a grid capped at 20 cars. It's become clear after much trial and error that my current equipment can't handle more than that capacity when it comes to on-track competitors.

Volant Elf was intended to act as a proof of concept, and the mod seems to be working well. The only thing to watch out for is Long Beach, where the test race was a bit of an omnishambles with all the crashing and driver mistakes

Maybe you could increase the amount of possible entries by running a heat/final system similar to what I'm doing in AR 3.5. After all, you're the one who originally suggested it, back when I was still running LFS which also had a maximum limit of 20 cars.

[Rated]

I would like to bring your attention on a problem that has been discussed several times in the chatroom, but hardly ever discussed on our forums.
With the demise of the International Procar Championship that Salamander used to run in 2017 and 2018, its feeder, the SEAT Leon Supercopa series (which I run), has now nobody to feed. I know the canon is much more focussed on open wheeler series than tin tops, but it is kind of worrying me that my series become the touring cars top series by default for 2019.
Why ? Simply because once the drivers in the series reached the top, they have nowhere to go. Really nowhere ? Well, no. They can go back to single seaters (AR2.0 or F3) or make a suicidal jump to GTR where they might be declined to drive because of the power and speed difference between the two series.
I heard MinardiFan's S2000 proposal for IPC's replacement, but that was many moons ago. To this day, nobody clearly knows if it will take off.
I can't claim I have the solution to fix this.
Opinions ? Suggestions ?

[tommykl]

I've been told there's a vote going on, so I might as well. All three proposals are perfectly sane and reasonable.

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes

[kevinbotz]

With tommykl's vote now completed, all three proposals have met the necessary majority for ratification.

Proposals regarding limitations on multi-series organizations, a resolution concerning the gap left by IPC between Supercopa and GT-R, and Biscione's Indy feeder are now tabled for discussion.

[DemocalypseNow]

I don't think we need any regulation regarding multi-series organisations. It's a common sense thing, and inserting a hard limit only works to be damaging in cases where further use would actually make sense. Say we have a series, and Renault were to have a large, or factory, presence - would it not be logical for Voeckler to be involved in some capacity, given their works status for said manufacturer in ARWS and FE?

I don't see an issue here. Racing organisation structures should be sensible, but nothing more than a guiding hand is necessary to keep it sensible. Leaving it ad-hoc is fine, it's not a large, out of control problem.

[Klon]

Say we have a series, and Renault were to have a large, or factory, presence - would it not be logical for Voeckler to be involved in some capacity, given their works status for said manufacturer in ARWS and FE?

In theory, yes (although it should be pointed out that many manufacturers have multiple works teams, specialised in their respective part of motorsport (e.g. Audi having Joest in endurance racing and Abt in DTM/Formula E; Mercedes having HWA in DTM and The Team Formerly Known As Tyrrell in Formula 1) and most superteams are about as specalised as a G-type main-sequence star).

However, as there is an overabundance of works entries in the canon, allowing such association inevitably gives a user free reign to pop out inane "works" teams and therefore force their place into any series they wish to join, regardless of whether the manufacturer they represent would realistically either have the budget to allow for such a thing or the willingness to spend that much money.

To be as direct as I can about this: so far, in the entire history of the thing we call our canon, I have only seen RealRacingRoots and myself be sensible about what works entries exist in our series; oftentimes in a way that serves to lessen our series in the great cause of realism (trust me, if I felt like I had the choice of which four manufacturers would provide works engines and teams in Alt-F1, Judd and Holden would not even make my Top 20).

Therefore, as the userbase running the series has mostly proven unable to provide a realistic experience in a free environment with a guiding hand, a forced limit is the only sensible solution.

Furthermore, as series are finally starting to grow sensible about the number of entries they have, such teams take away place for newcomers (a crucial problem which I will address further down in this post) and actual entries of interest that don't just serve to house the excessive number of characters created by the users running said superteams (myself not excluded from that description).

I thereby suggest a limit per user on 12 teams that can be divided nearly freely: either at least three seperate entities with four teams each or 12 teams that stand in absolutely no connection to each other and anything in between. A limit of no more than four teams per entity is sufficient to cover the entire feeder ladder to ARWS/F1 and take one outside endeavour or compete in multiple top-tier environments. By having 12 teams to play with, each user is barely limited in what series they can join, given as the active number of series is usually around 15. The precise definition of what accounts as an entity would be something that needed to be discussed further.

However, this post is only the promised summary of my ideas, given as I request putting all canon discussion on hold until we have addressed the following issue:

The ASMF is slowly dying.

We are losing established users at a rate that is, quite frankly, dramatic. Salamander, TMLW, Simtek (yes, I am aware he is still there, but his involvement has reduced and once that is the case him dropping out entirely is not a question of if, but only when) - just to drop a few names out there. I am aware that some people will always drop out of games because RL becomes too demanding or your interest in a hobby diminishes (I myself was admin on a fantasy wrestling board, an endeavour which I nowadays wouldn't waste a minute of my rare spare time on). However, we mostly lost them to, as it seems, abusive behaviour of mostly all of us (myself very much included). Salamander and Simtek outright stated that things got too serious for them and, if you look around on the rest of the board, GP Rejects users not involved in our games tend to think of us as a bunch of maladjusted freaks.

New users coming in to replace them do so at a speed that is no longer sufficient to replace the users we lose. Nuppiz and myself are both either beginning to or having run dry on our waiting list, which spells the problem out pretty nicely, given as F1 and AR 3.5 are a main series and a second-tier series respectively.

Therefore, we need to do something lest our stuff becomes a circlejerk of like six guys at most. Unfortunately, outside of ramping up our advertising efforts on the web, I have absolutely no idea what to do. Suggestions would be more than welcome.

[Ataxia]

The ASMF is slowly dying.

We are losing established users at a rate that is, quite frankly, dramatic. Salamander, TMLW, Simtek (yes, I am aware he is still there, but his involvement has reduced and once that is the case him dropping out entirely is not a question of if, but only when) - just to drop a few names out there. I am aware that some people will always drop out of games because RL becomes too demanding or your interest in a hobby diminishes (I myself was admin on a fantasy wrestling board, an endeavour which I nowadays wouldn't waste a minute of my rare spare time on). However, we mostly lost them to, as it seems, abusive behaviour of mostly all of us (myself very much included). Salamander and Simtek outright stated that things got too serious for them and, if you look around on the rest of the board, GP Rejects users not involved in our games tend to think of us as a bunch of maladjusted freaks.

New users coming in to replace them do so at a speed that is no longer sufficient to replace the users we lose. Nuppiz and myself are both either beginning to or having run dry on our waiting list, which spells the problem out pretty nicely, given as F1 and AR 3.5 are a main series and a second-tier series respectively.

Therefore, we need to do something lest our stuff becomes a circlejerk of like six guys at most. Unfortunately, outside of ramping up our advertising efforts on the web, I have absolutely no idea what to do. Suggestions would be more than welcome.

The only thing we CAN do is extend the reach of the main website. I'm pretty sure that, with the right output of content (which is being worked on; we've had a stagnant few months on that front which is why I've asked our current contributors to put together a list of what they'd like to work on and create a steady stream of content) we can get more people to the website, then trickling through to the forum and then the ASMF. It won't immediately get better, and whilst we do have newer members joining the fun and games I agree that we're losing a lot of key people.

That's why I pitched the F4/national-tier series idea. It's not just to get more people involved in running series, it's also to work out who's proactive and who can start to get involved in helping out to keep this little corner of the world relatively sustainable. Unfortunately, we've only got one running and one more in the works, but in time I'm sure it can grow.

I worry that, due to the current amount of series, that we are a bit overblown and overregulated. I appreciate the need for the canon council, especially in the wake of Axel's various trainwrecks, but perhaps some of the series themselves are getting quite complicated. Perhaps we need to look at all the series in turn, make sure that they're accessible and as new members join in, they don't get too lost in the rulesets. Remembering how I ended up here, I believe Nuppiz dropped a cheeky plug of RoLFS and because it was pretty simple it wasn't too overwhelming.

Maybe other areas of the forum aren't so aware or are a bit scared of getting involved here, so we need to make it as welcoming as possible.

[AndreaModa]

Agree with all that's been written. God knows why people feel the need to be aggressive when there's f*** all of any significance on the line. I know I've said it time, and time again, but that's why I don't bother with the chat room. It can be all fun and games for a while, but it will eventually go sour and it locks out new people who feel they're not part of the 'circle'.

Bin the chat room except for live race broadcasts. If anyone wants to chat to someone else away from the forum, use FB chat, WhatsApp, or whatever.

Taking a look at the complexity of each series is a good idea. I understand that introducing new ideas is fun and adds new layers, but take a look at ARWS - even after Aerond took over it was a simple case of buying an engine and a chassis and picking two drivers. But it's now bloody complicated with budget spreadsheets, options for mechanical sympathy, etc, etc. And then, having spent ages planning out your team, you get a crap RNG roll and are handed a sh*t chassis or engine at the end of it with no way of really changing it.

At the same time, I've felt that most of the canon championship seasons are far too long. F1 and now F2 are ludicrous. ARWS is now at an all time high. It takes more time for the manager to run the championship and requires more input from each team and driver owner.

But overall, for crying out loud, just be f***ing nice please. It's not hard. Whatever your beef, it means nothing, nothing once you log out of this forum.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

We are losing established users at a rate that is, quite frankly, dramatic. Salamander, TMLW, Simtek (yes, I am aware he is still there, but his involvement has reduced and once that is the case him dropping out entirely is not a question of if, but only when) - just to drop a few names out there

Yes, I think it is indeed inevitable that I will be ceasing all my team management activities in the ASMF in the near-future, with the probable exception of alt-50s F1, and even that hinges on certain factors. I'm not even sure on FIAPC anymore, I might just leave that altogether. Alt-F1 1989, still unsure, maybe I'll keep that up. Alt-F1 2019, all down to how Theodore performs.

I agree that so-called 'superteams' are far too numerous in canon, and I've noticed some newer users are beginning to take the same all-encompassing approach. An organization with fingers in so many pies is rare to find in real-life motorsport, impossible to find in such numbers. Red Bull is one such real-life organization with a huge amount of involvement in motorsport, but that's almost entirely in the form of sponsorship.

On the subject of series rules, I always found ARWS to be a lot to take in, and I find the whole credits for news stories thing to be asking a bit too much from users. I know it's not mandatory or anything, but still, I don't see the need to fill the thread up with that much (usually well-written, granted) stuff.

I think it really says a lot when you look in the 18MDMF and see an almost completely different section of the userbase with no ASMF activity whatsoever running and competing in series there.

[Nuppiz]

I agree that the current situation is quite dire. It's understandable if people are leaving the subforum because they don't have the time anymore - after all, when all of this started most of us were in their teens or early 20s with much less responsibilities, but with very little new members joining these people are now adults with jobs, education and/or families to take care of. Additionally, some users were definitely lost during the move from F1 Rejects to GP Rejects. However, when people start leaving because they feel they are taking things too seriously (Salamander) or feel that others are doing it (Simtek), then there's a problem. And yes, some series are getting more complex every year as the users running them want more control over things to make them true to their own "vision". While most entry-level series are still relatively simple, the top-tier categories are starting to have rulebooks that are almost similar to some real-life series in sheer length which makes them rather unwelcoming to new users. With the amount of established users dwindling, this will eventually lead to diminishing entries.

I admit being a part of the problem myself. I get worked up too easily when people seem to lack basic reading comprehension and make entries that are widely against the rules, and even when they are making legitimate yet somewhat silly choices I still berate them (usually on the chatroom). This behavior likely stems from my own tendency to a perfectionist in everything, making sure every minute detail is correct, so when I see people doing the complete opposite it often provokes a verbal attack on my side. I, along with a number of other users, should learn to relax a bit and learn to live with the fact that other people aren't so perfectionist and take things less seriously. The chatroom isn't evil per se, but some of us there should definitely start behaving better. I also have the habit of making my series too complex to make them more "realistic" in my opinion; AR 3.5 is still quite simple (pick drivers that are eligible and check in every now and then), but LGPS was already quite complex (the amount of entries was only high because the forum was very popular at the time) and WSRC is already struggling heavily due to its intricate rule system.

Even if we reverse this progress and make the subforum more welcoming again, we still have the problem of a dwindling userbase due to lack of spare time caused by the sheer aging of the members. We need to attract more people on the forum, and interesting articles on the main site are at the moment our best chance at achieving that.

[dr-baker]

Everybody seems to be saying what I have felt for a couple of years now. I thought it was just me at first. I enjoyed the early days of what was then known as F1RWRS. I enjoyed the simplicity of it. But it became more complex as I had less time to dedicate to it, and (perhaps coincidently?) the performance of my teams and drivers went down with it. I still take part in a few series, but ones which don't require a massive understanding of how the underlying game works, with lots of choices. And I don't need to follow half-a-dozen other series to pick rookie drivers from either! (That's not a problem per se, but it is for me.)

[AndreaModa]

Look, I know I keep banging on about the chatroom, but let me say this in regard to new members: There's no official link to the chatroom anywhere, aside from the wiki, which itself isn't widely linked to. So for new members, they are locked out of the goings on there. People who have been in certain series for a while know where to find information and who to deal with. Newbies don't and can only really get that from the chatroom. But if I was new to the forum, the last place I'd want to be going to is a chatroom full of people trading in-jokes and information I have no idea about. It isn't welcoming and isn't constructive for new members.

[Nessafox]

I remember very well how originally i had a very hard time truly grasping the nature of the ASMF, even when it was relatively simple. So i can imagine new users are not likely to join. On the other hand, at a certain time we did have too much users simply joining for the sake of joining.
By the time i grew less interested (notice how i never got a team in the top series and only been on the waiting list for a very short time), and the only series i take serious (the Alt fifties), i suffered many seasons as a consequence of some impulsive decisions, and even the good decisions don't pay off because of the over enthusiasm of some established members to try to get as much entries as possible. What's the thing with works entries having 6 cars nowadays? I feel some members spend too much time bending the rules and too little time having some actual fun.
I expressed it before, but i think lot of members are trying to apply the real life hardness to this forum section, whilst we're actually supposed to be an escape from that real life hardness. I feel lot of members are too focussed on being succesful on a forum that celebrates those ware are not succesful. Originally we just had sponsor liveries copying real ones we liked, products we liked but could never afford to actually sponsor a real team, or things we found funny, nowadays you only see many 'realistic' sponsors, and a lack of creativity and fun. But then again, in the old days, you had series organisers constantly complain that most members lack the artistic skills, and now they're running out of people willing to participate in series.
I certainly miss the fun of a series like the REECCS. That's one thing most people are overlooking here: the dissapearance of series that make no sense but are totally fun. The realistic sophisticated series can co-exist with the fun series. However i got the feeling that everyone trying a new series wants to be part of the realistic sophisticated world.
I might be part of the elite by default, but i'm not planning on changing my carefree attitude towards the series i'm participating in. I'm not planning on contributing more on the other forums besides to accasional funny/not-funny remark either. But you even see that a member like me is participating in less and less series and even struggling to get good drivers. That even when i'm thinking i'm doing a really good job and spend a few hours on calculating budgets, i get outperformed by people making it a matter of life and death. And i have plenty of time.

Remember my post trying to explain the Belgian football league play-off system and peoples reaction? Well, that's how newcomers react. And just like many leagues are copying Belgiums ridiculous system, many series are copying each other.

Also noticed how much female members we have in the ASMF? Yeah, indeed.

[Nuppiz]

Also noticed how much female members we have in the ASMF? Yeah, indeed.

Then again, how many female members do we have on the entire forum...?

[Nessafox]

Also noticed how much female members we have in the ASMF? Yeah, indeed.

Then again, how many female members do we have on the entire forum...?

Not much, but i'm sure they still read the more serious parts of the forum.

[DemocalypseNow]

Look, I know I keep banging on about the chatroom, but let me say this in regard to new members: There's no official link to the chatroom anywhere, aside from the wiki, which itself isn't widely linked to. So for new members, they are locked out of the goings on there. People who have been in certain series for a while know where to find information and who to deal with. Newbies don't and can only really get that from the chatroom. But if I was new to the forum, the last place I'd want to be going to is a chatroom full of people trading in-jokes and information I have no idea about. It isn't welcoming and isn't constructive for new members.

Except none of what you describe actually happens, and you wouldn't know, because you've never seen it first hand.

It's not particularly hard to know where to look. Who to ask questions to about a single series? Original poster. That's just common sense. Who to ask about a specific driver? We have an entire thread for that.

Also, what exactly is your definition of "widely linked to"? Almost every race post in every series has a wiki link, the wiki has its own thread in the PMMF, I don't know what else you could possibly do to make it more open other than literal spamming.

But okay, I'll do something about the lack of accessibility to the chat. That part is certainly true. I can do something to address that, and I'll add it in shortly.

[Nuppiz]

Also noticed how much female members we have in the ASMF? Yeah, indeed.

Then again, how many female members do we have on the entire forum...?

Not much, but i'm sure they still read the more serious parts of the forum.

We have probably one or two actively posting female members on the entire forum. If we say that about one third of the entire membership visits the PMMF even irregularly, one third of two is... less than one. So it's more likely that our current female members simply aren't interested in virtual leagues.

[Nessafox]

Then again, how many female members do we have on the entire forum...?

Not much, but i'm sure they still read the more serious parts of the forum.

We have probably one or two actively posting female members on the entire forum. If we say that about one third of the entire membership visits the PMMF even irregularly, one third of two is... less than one. So it's more likely that our current female members simply aren't interested in virtual leagues.

Okay, it was a sexist remark, but the point is that 'a bunch of cockfight's' doesnt sound inviting. New members are now struggling to see what added value this forum has compare to others.

[AndreaModa]

Except none of what you describe actually happens, and you wouldn't know, because you've never seen it first hand.

It's not particularly hard to know where to look. Who to ask questions to about a single series? Original poster. That's just common sense. Who to ask about a specific driver? We have an entire thread for that.

Also, what exactly is your definition of "widely linked to"? Almost every race post in every series has a wiki link, the wiki has its own thread in the PMMF, I don't know what else you could possibly do to make it more open other than literal spamming.

But okay, I'll do something about the lack of accessibility to the chat. That part is certainly true. I can do something to address that, and I'll add it in shortly.

You've got a short memory. I spent considerable amounts of time in the chat, back when Aerond first started using it to broadcast his races. Waiting for text updates on how the race was panning out was fun and exciting. But the more time I spent there, the more I disliked it, certainly once Aerond started live streaming and its old use was redundant and people were logging in at all times of the day. Maybe it was me, I don't know.

I'm quite happy to sit here, do my thing as I have been and if it all comes crashing down then at least I can say I've had a good time and had plenty of laughs. I'm doing it on my terms, for my enjoyment and I think that's what others who have become disillusioned with it all need to do as well.

[Ataxia]

Look, Moda, I completely understand your qualms about the chatroom, and I do admit that it can be a little intoxicating at times (and in all honesty, I do not help the situation). However, it's a bit upsetting that you think that we're trying to close people off. We're not. If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine, but different strokes for different folks.

I agree with your last point, and that's one of the main reasons I'm scaling down my involvement in the PMMF series. Largely, I'm also taking other factors into account such as life things (which nobody wants to hear about) and greater involvement with site content (which about three people want to hear about). Sometimes, it's easy to get too competitive with something that's supposed to be just fun and games.

Lastly, Indycar should alleviate any concerns about series getting too complex; I've stripped a few things down from the original proposal and added some nicer ways for people to spend their cash. There's also some fun little features as well.