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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 17 Jul 2021, 19:09
by mario
Rob Dylan wrote:Today's storm in a teacup comes from Daniel Ricciardo being caught on microphone that something or other was
"terrible. It’s shite, it’s worse" when standing next to the new 2022 car.
I can only assume he was talking about the new season of his favourite tv show, but folks are blowing it up to "2022 is going to be terrible because Daniel says so!"
Perhaps it's more because there have been those wondering if Ricciardo's "retraction" was because Liberty Media had put pressure on him to withdraw the remarks, rather than being of his own volition.
It's not the first time that some have wondered if that has been happening, given that drivers seemed to be having to be a lot more circumspect in their comments about the "sprint qualifying" proposal after Liberty Media held a briefing session with them - indeed, Gasly made a comment after the meeting implying that they had been put under pressure to not speak out against that proposal.
Wallio wrote:I mean if he was talking about that rainbow unicorn vomit livery they stuck on it, he's 100% right. It's amazing how much improved the car looked on Friday with all the teams releasing their own renders.
I wonder if people will feel quite the same if the 2022 cars all look pretty much the same - I don't think that some have quite realised quite how restrictive the 2022 rule set is, or quite how aggressively it limits the bodywork shapes to fit to a very clear template that those rule writers want the cars to follow (with an argument that the rules are far more proscriptive than they really need to be to make the cars work in the way they want them to).
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 17 Jul 2021, 21:40
by Wallio
mario wrote:I wonder if people will feel quite the same if the 2022 cars all look pretty much the same - I don't think that some have quite realised quite how restrictive the 2022 rule set is, or quite how aggressively it limits the bodywork shapes to fit to a very clear template that those rule writers want the cars to follow (with an argument that the rules are far more proscriptive than they really need to be to make the cars work in the way they want them to).
While I in no way think that is a good thing, and with the full disclosure that I'll probably be one of the loudest complainers if that ends up being true, I do think with the cost cap, some form of convergence (natural or forced) was inevitable. I figured it would take a bit longer, when the really restrictive caps come in, but the idea is the same.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 18 Jul 2021, 09:12
by mario
Wallio wrote:mario wrote:I wonder if people will feel quite the same if the 2022 cars all look pretty much the same - I don't think that some have quite realised quite how restrictive the 2022 rule set is, or quite how aggressively it limits the bodywork shapes to fit to a very clear template that those rule writers want the cars to follow (with an argument that the rules are far more proscriptive than they really need to be to make the cars work in the way they want them to).
While I in no way think that is a good thing, and with the full disclosure that I'll probably be one of the loudest complainers if that ends up being true, I do think with the cost cap, some form of convergence (natural or forced) was inevitable. I figured it would take a bit longer, when the really restrictive caps come in, but the idea is the same.
It really is quite forced this time around - the technical regulations on the bodywork have been changed to be much more prescriptive, and the way that the zones where bodywork can be placed have been defined creates a pretty narrow design envelope (
https://f1tcdn.net/images/features/2021 ... 3-2022.png to see how they are defined in the 2022 regulations).
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 18 Jul 2021, 11:25
by Rob Dylan
If I may give my verdict on Sprint Race Qualifying Race Bonanza, a.k.a. The Sprint, I had no real problem with seeing cars race of course, but there didn't feel like there was anything really special about it other than the fact it was just a shorter version of the normal races.
If I were the FiA and people with a genuine interest in improving the format of what they have, I would try to think of ways of making it unique as a spectacle. Not "putting them in a truck that says 'buy Dogecoin' and driving them around the circuit", but something that makes the race format itself unique. Perhaps having a specific sprint tyre, or (dare I say it) some kind of elimination format. I don't know, but just from watching that I didn't feel anything special about the sprint after a few laps were done. Just a short race with guaranteed points for Ham-Bot-Ver, which I doubt interests anyone.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 19 Jul 2021, 13:37
by CoopsII
Rob Dylan wrote:If I may give my verdict on Sprint Race Qualifying Race Bonanza, a.k.a. The Sprint,
I didn't hate it but it didn't feel necessary, either.
Old Man Trivia - I remember Saturday 'Sprint Races' being put forward as an idea in 1995 by Flavio Briatore. I think the BTCC had featured at Silverstone that year and Flav liked what he saw. Of course, the idea was shot down at the time but I wonder if it was mentioned through the smoke of Mild Seven to his technical director Mr Ross Brawn.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 19 Jul 2021, 18:07
by Klon
CoopsII wrote:Rob Dylan wrote:If I may give my verdict on Sprint Race Qualifying Race Bonanza, a.k.a. The Sprint,
I didn't hate it but it didn't feel necessary, either.
A perfect summary. To me, it felt "more relevant" as a qualifying than the one-lap showdown, but in turn it's not quite as fun. I am not going to lose sleep over it becoming a regular fixture (and that
is happening), but nor I do I want that smeared all over my rye bread like it's good fresh cheese either.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - British GP discussion!
Posted: 19 Jul 2021, 18:52
by UncreativeUsername37
Whenever something exciting happened in the sprint race, I was excited, then five seconds later I thought "I would've been slightly more excited if there wasn't a competition red a quarter of the way through". But for the most part it just felt so weird seeing a qualifying race in F1 I don't know what to think of it yet....
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 19 Jul 2021, 22:41
by Nessafox
Personally i found the sprint race the most boring thing to happen in years. The only things that happened where the start and Alonso reviving the Trulli-train.In a full race you'd at least have some strategy to keep me focussed.
I didn't hate it though as it was short, but it's not an added value.
The problem is, there's already 23 races (under normal circumstances), of which some will be boring. If it were a 15 race season, maybe it wouldn't bother me so much to add some extra. But now i'm thinking, how many more races can you add before fans massively start quitting?
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 21 Jul 2021, 18:47
by yannicksamlad
I can see some people watching the sprint race and deciding they didn't want to bother with the Sunday GP...
And missing quite an event!
I really think it dilutes the GP as a special event having another F1 race in the same weekend with the same competitors.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 22 Jul 2021, 07:24
by Rob Dylan
yannicksamlad wrote:I can see some people watching the sprint race and deciding they didn't want to bother with the Sunday GP...
And missing quite an event!
I really think it dilutes the GP as a special event having another F1 race in the same weekend with the same competitors.
A dumb idea I don't even think is dumb anymore, is this:
- Friday, the drivers qualify for the sprint and get their cars set up.
- Saturday the RESERVE drivers practice in those cars in the morning, and then do the sprint.
- Sunday the main drivers get back in the car in the position their reserves qualified them in and do the race.
It would make the sprint something entirely different. It would give them something to actually do on Saturday morning practice. And it would give us Esteban Gutiérrez getting Lewis pole in a Mercedes
(of course the three points would go to Esteban
)
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 29 Jul 2021, 19:30
by mario
So, considering the heat and fury that was expended by Red Bull in Silverstone, their attempts at getting the protest reviewed have been immediately chucked out.
It is being reported that their submission effectively consisted of simulator work that was intended to show Hamilton wasn't going to make the corner, data collected from the post-race Pirelli tyre tests that Albon conducted and illustrations based on the aforementioned data.
The response from the stewards has been to point out that the regulations state that any new information is meant to come from the race itself, with the simulator data and Pirelli tyre test data being irrelevant and invalid for use. Meanwhile, the visualisations turn out to all be based on exactly the same GPS data that the stewards were already given for their analysis - leading the stewards to rather pointedly state that any new information should be “‘discovered’ (as opposed to created)”.
More interesting is a secondary comment made by the stewards, which is that “The Stewards note, with some concern, certain allegations made in the Competitor's above letter. Such allegations may or may not have been relevant to the Stewards if the Petition for Review had been granted. The Stewards may have addressed these allegations directly in any decision that would have followed. The Petition having been dismissed, the Stewards make no comments on those allegations.”
It has made some wonder what exactly Red Bull were apparently claiming in that letter to the stewards, and taken by some as the FIA implying that, if Red Bull continue in this vein, they might get hit with "bringing the sport into disrepute".
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 15:10
by IceG
So morphing into the Hungarian GP discussion thread....
That was some masterful trollling by Mercedes on the last Q3 runs. Brilliantly planned, timed and executed teamwork to secure a double front row. Now Red Bull are on the wrong race tyres and not on the front row of the grid. Verstappen may be able to get a faster start and slip-stream Hamilton but with Bottas in second playing the team game Verstappen cannot move over to get alongside and go round the outside into the first corner. And I cannot see Verstappen trying an aggressive run up the inside against Bottas as he turns in because Bottas has nothing to lose while Verstappen needs to get at least second in the race to be sure of not going behind in the championship.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 21:04
by mario
IceG wrote:So morphing into the Hungarian GP discussion thread....
That was some masterful trollling by Mercedes on the last Q3 runs. Brilliantly planned, timed and executed teamwork to secure a double front row. Now Red Bull are on the wrong race tyres and not on the front row of the grid. Verstappen may be able to get a faster start and slip-stream Hamilton but with Bottas in second playing the team game Verstappen cannot move over to get alongside and go round the outside into the first corner. And I cannot see Verstappen trying an aggressive run up the inside against Bottas as he turns in because Bottas has nothing to lose while Verstappen needs to get at least second in the race to be sure of not going behind in the championship.
I have seen this accusation being put around, but that seems to be a consequence of the way that the TV producers have cut the shots of the cars on track to cut out what was happening in front of the two Mercedes drivers. If you look at what the driver tracker was showing the other drivers ahead of those four were doing, then I am not so sure that it was so much of an intentional act, and more of a case of too many drivers tripping over themselves as they basically gambled on going out as late as possible to try and get better track conditions.
An individual over on F1Technical has been providing screenshots - this is the situation at the start of the final runs in Q3:
At this point in time, Perez is just exiting the pits at the end of a train of nine cars, wtih Gasly at the head of that pack.
At this point in time, Gasly slows his pace a little in the middle sector - this results in the pack being compressed slightly, with Norris and Ocon beginning to catch the Gasly-Leclerc-Alonso group in the middle sector. Bottas is being advised on the gap to Ocon in front, which Bottas is trying to keep at between 2 and 4 seconds, with Hamilton also being advised to keep a similar gap to those in front. Red Bull, meanwhile, were advising Verstappen that he was OK to stay behind Hamilton, but could overtake if needed.
Now the problems begin to start - Leclerc appears to have decided that he needed to build a larger gap to Gasly in front of him, so he slows down on the approach to Turn 11 to let Gasly pull further ahead.
As he does so, Alonso also slows down his pace slightly to maintain a similar gap to Leclerc. Norris and Ocon both see this, and they too check their speed. Bottas, seeing that Ocon had slowed slightly as he was going through the middle sector, also begins to slow down a bit himself to maintain a similar gap to those in front.
Again, as drivers are coming round the final few turns, you see a similar pattern emerge - drivers are progressively slowing down in Turns 12 and 13 so that they can then accelerate hard through Turn 14 and onto the main straight. At this point in time, Norris has waited for Alonso to pull out a bit of a gap down the main straight, which in turn is slowing up Ocon, Bottas, Hamilton, Verstappen and finally Perez.
Taking into account that there were five other midfield drivers in front, I would say that it looks more like a case of those in front slowing down and then causing a bit of a chain reaction further down the line. Even if Verstappen had got in front of the two Mercedes drivers, he'd have faced the problem Bottas had - he'd have run into the back of Ocon and Norris, who were themselves being backed up by Alonso and Leclerc.
To me, it looks a bit like the Monza qualifying farce - that, in trying to get the best track conditions by being last in the queue, Mercedes and Red Bull ended up having their outlaps dictated by the speed of the midfield drivers in front of them. As soon as one of them began slowing down, then they all started slowing down to maintain a similar gap - it feels more like a case of trying to be a bit too clever, only for the situation to come back and bite them.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 22:58
by IceG
In every one of those screenshots, if you move the two Mercedes in front of Ocon then there is lots of clear track ahead of both Verstappen and Perez - as there is between Norris and Alonso. And in every shot Verstappen is right up Hamilton's chuff ("swarming all over his gearbox" as Murray would have said).
Either way, the first three corners will be interesting...
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 01 Aug 2021, 07:37
by mario
IceG wrote:In every one of those screenshots, if you move the two Mercedes in front of Ocon then there is lots of clear track ahead of both Verstappen and Perez - as there is between Norris and Alonso. And in every shot Verstappen is right up Hamilton's chuff ("swarming all over his gearbox" as Murray would have said).
Either way, the first three corners will be interesting...
But, if you then insert the two Mercedes cars between Ocon and Norris, wouldn't that then encourage Ocon to drop back to create a gap for himself, meaning that Ocon then becomes a problem for Red Bull?
The timing data and radio transmissions indicate all of the drivers were being encouraged to keep a similar gap of around 2-4 seconds to each other. Ocon was being given advice on how to pace himself relative to Norris for most of that lap - if you put the two Mercedes drivers in front, then he'd be told to recreate that same gap to the trailing Mercedes driver.
Therefore, I don't see how a gap would appear, because Ocon would be shuffled back into the place where Hamilton once was - it just recreates the same problem with a slightly different car order. Overall, I don't really see how Verstappen or Perez get a better lap - their pace is still going to be largely dictated by the fact that they are the last drivers in a train of cars that is about half a minute long, and where drivers in front are periodically slowing down to create a gap for themselves.
That is why we've already had Perez say that "I just paid the price by being the the last car of the train" and that he doesn't believe that the Mercedes drivers were trying to hold up the two Red Bull cars on purpose. If Perez, the driver who was arguably worst impacted, is basically just putting it down to bad luck, I'm more inclined to go with him.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 01 Aug 2021, 12:37
by Rob Dylan
mario wrote:If Perez, the driver who was arguably worst impacted, is basically just putting it down to bad luck, I'm more inclined to go with him.
Yeah, Pérez knows it was a circumstantial thing, and it's hardly the first time it's happened. Plus, I imagine he's likewise tired of the unending drama-rama of the last two weeks and just wants to get on with it. He's far more interested in trying to get a momentum to his season rather than "did Hamilton slow up your teammate on
purpose?????"
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Hungarian GP discussion!
Posted: 01 Aug 2021, 18:55
by IceG
Q1 if Hamilton had also pulled in to change his tyres on the restart, how would the restart have worked? There would have been no cars on the grid, no lights going out (?) and no wait for the cars to pass the end of the pit-lane. So when would the pit-lane have opened? And would overtakes in the pit-lane have counted?
Q2 There are suggestions that had Hamilton pulled into the pits to change his tyres on the restart he would have then been behind some or all of the other cars which pulled in after him but were further down the pit-lane. But Russell pulled into the last garage on the pit lane and thus emerged at the front but was forced to give the places back. Would not the same then have applied to Hamilton and all the cars which over took him would have had to give way once back on the circuit?
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 01 Aug 2021, 19:22
by Londoner
Sadly it looks like Vettel and possibly one of the Williams drivers are going to be disqualified for not having enough fuel to pass post-race scrutineering.
I know this will be a wildly unpopular opinion and should be rightly shot down by everyone, but if Liberty Media and F1 are intent on going down the entertainment factor (standing restarts, sprint races, social media etc), the absolute least they can do is not take away feel-good results from drivers post-race. Fines, or NASCAR-style punishments like having the strategist suspended for a race should be the way forward. Yes, this has the effect of making F1 like a motorised WWE, but honestly, F1 can ill-afford bad PR in the social media age.
With Vettel, the optics for F1 look even worse given his reprimand for the Pride T-shirt ("WeRaceAsOne", but not when it suits bigots"). This series loves to shoot itself in the foot.
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!
Posted: 01 Aug 2021, 19:22
by Paul Hayes
What a barmy old race!
The sight of Hamilton lining up to take the restart alone must be one of the most extraordinary happenings in the history of F1. Imagine if he'd come in too, and the whole start lights procedure had happened for... Nobody!
One of those races like Monza last year where so many people had unexpectedly good results, yet will also be perhaps ruefully thinking "If only..." At least in Vettel and Alonso's cases they're big enough and ugly enough to take it, and have the wins and titles behind them for it not to matter too much.
I'm pleased for Ocon, and particularly for Williams. And you have to stand up and salute Hamilton's recovery drive - I had thought he had Verstappen were doomed to carry out their "two bald men fighting over a comb" act at the back of the field for the whole race. A shame Verstappen's damage didn't allow him to try and fight is way back too - but who knows how important that single point may be come the season's end? Or indeed the one Gasly pinched from Hamilton on the last lap...?
Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Hungarian GP discussion!
Posted: 01 Aug 2021, 19:38
by mario
IceG wrote:Q1 if Hamilton had also pulled in to change his tyres on the restart, how would the restart have worked? There would have been no cars on the grid, no lights going out (?) and no wait for the cars to pass the end of the pit-lane. So when would the pit-lane have opened? And would overtakes in the pit-lane have counted?
Q2 There are suggestions that had Hamilton pulled into the pits to change his tyres on the restart he would have then been behind some or all of the other cars which pulled in after him but were further down the pit-lane. But Russell pulled into the last garage on the pit lane and thus emerged at the front but was forced to give the places back. Would not the same then have applied to Hamilton and all the cars which over took him would have had to give way once back on the circuit?
There is an interesting question over whether the drivers who did enter the pit lane might have actually broken the rules. There is apparently a clause that states that the drivers should have started from the grid at the restart if the stewards state there will be a standing start, so there is an argument that Hamilton may have been the only one who technically did comply with the rules.
Londoner wrote:Sadly it looks like Vettel and possibly one of the Williams drivers are going to be disqualified for not having enough fuel to pass post-race scrutineering.
I know this will be a wildly unpopular opinion and should be rightly shot down by everyone, but if Liberty Media and F1 are intent on going down the entertainment factor (standing restarts, sprint races, social media etc), the absolute least they can do is not take away feel-good results from drivers post-race. Fines, or NASCAR-style punishments like having the strategist suspended for a race should be the way forward. Yes, this has the effect of making F1 like a motorised WWE, but honestly, F1 can ill-afford bad PR in the social media age.
With Vettel, the optics for F1 look even worse given his reprimand for the Pride T-shirt ("WeRaceAsOne", but not when it suits bigots"). This series loves to shoot itself in the foot.
It might not be popular, but if the rules are bent for one, it then raises the possibility that others will abuse that and seek to pressure those in charge to bend to them and the fans they can mobilise. Just as there might be those whom we might not want penalised, so too would such manipulation raise the risk of those who should be penalised being let off because of fears over the backlash from the fans and the political pressure those teams can apply.