2023 Discussion Thread

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mario
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

IceG wrote: 23 Jun 2023, 09:57 The Red Bull approach seems counter-productive.

The Mercedes and Ferrari teams have a history of well-matched drivers who could both get great results from the car. Yes there is still a team hierarchy but Irvine, Rosberg and Bottas were still fabulous in their day.

Red Bull manufacture a car for one driver (Max/Seb) and the other seems to struggle.

This suggests that RB prioritises the Driver's chanmpionship (where all the publicity is) over the Constructor's championship (where the prize money is).

I cannot remember how the wind tunnel handicapping works - is that based on team or driver points/positions?
The wind tunnel testing allocation is based on where the team is in the WCC rankings, with the allocation being adjusted halfway through the year - I believe that the next adjustment is due to take place in a couple of days, as it happens.

As for Red Bull's position towards their drivers, it is worth bearing in mind that Red Bull has a different marketing strategy to the likes of Ferrari or Mercedes. In the case of those two manufacturers, the emphasis is on the success of the team as a whole and the brand strategy revolves around that success, which means they are more invested in the World Constructors Championship.

Red Bull's marketing strategy, by contrast, is very driver oriented - even before Vettel won his first title, Horner rather strongly indicated that Red Bull wanted him to win the WDC because they felt that he fitted the corporate identity of Red Bull far better than Webber did, and that the return on investment that Red Bull would get from building up Vettel's image would be greater than that of Webber.

There was something of a similar trend with Ricciardo too, with Red Bull cashing in on the fact that his attitude played well with the press. With Verstappen, there is a similar careful curation of his media image and a strategy of creating a controlled media environment around him that pumps out a particularly favourable image - just look at the deal that Max signed with Viaplay, which centres around him and his father producing exclusive media content for subscribers in return for a sizeable retainer, and possibly even getting shares in that media company as a perk for sales which are attributed to his show.

I can't think of another driver who has been signing those sorts of media deals, and it sounds like the sort of deal that is being brokered by Red Bull's media department - for all the "devil may care" attitude that Max might show towards the media, the relationship he has with organisations like Viaplay suggest that there may be an element of that attitude being put on for the media to create just the sort of image that Red Bull thinks strikes a strong cord with the sort of fan they want to appeal towards.

If the team has a more driver centred marketing strategy, there is a much stronger incentive for them to orientate towards a set up that builds up the success, and thus the reputation, of their lead driver. In the same way that a car company might create a "halo product" that draws attention to them, there is an incentive for Red Bull to build up Max's reputation for the purpose of advertising their own prowess in creating such a great driver.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by IceG »

Thanks for a very inciteful and informative reply @mario
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

I've had a little play at being an F1 journalist this week!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66108994

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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx »

I'm willing to bet that the plot of Mr.Pitt's new F1 movie will not feature him racing to victory only to have the win taken away from him five hours after the race because of a penalty for a minor technical infringement by the stewards-but wouldn't it be pleasing it if did so the moviegoers can indulge the genuine F1 experience? :D
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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The way they had hyped this film nonsense I was under the impression that it was going to be a real movie Pinocchio. Instead, it's direct to streaming. And not even on a proper service either.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Wallio wrote: 06 Jul 2023, 16:09 The way they had hyped this film nonsense I was under the impression that it was going to be a real movie Pinocchio. Instead, it's direct to streaming. And not even on a proper service either.
The article I saw specifically said it would get a minimum of 30 days theater release before going to Apple. Is there other information out there saying differently? This was in the Hollywood Reporter.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 06 Jul 2023, 18:55
Wallio wrote: 06 Jul 2023, 16:09 The way they had hyped this film nonsense I was under the impression that it was going to be a real movie Pinocchio. Instead, it's direct to streaming. And not even on a proper service either.
The article I saw specifically said it would get a minimum of 30 days theater release before going to Apple. Is there other information out there saying differently? This was in the Hollywood Reporter.
A motoring site I was reading this morning claimed it was Apple TV exclusive. I can't remember if it was Motorsport, Autosport, or maybe The-Race. The article on the official F1 site simply refers to it as "An Apple Orginal Movie" with no discussion of release.
That being said, a limited run would make more sense though. Hard to imagine Brad Pitt being in essentially a B-Movie.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Wallio wrote: 06 Jul 2023, 19:18
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 06 Jul 2023, 18:55
Wallio wrote: 06 Jul 2023, 16:09 The way they had hyped this film nonsense I was under the impression that it was going to be a real movie Pinocchio. Instead, it's direct to streaming. And not even on a proper service either.
The article I saw specifically said it would get a minimum of 30 days theater release before going to Apple. Is there other information out there saying differently? This was in the Hollywood Reporter.
A motoring site I was reading this morning claimed it was Apple TV exclusive. I can't remember if it was Motorsport, Autosport, or maybe The-Race. The article on the official F1 site simply refers to it as "An Apple Orginal Movie" with no discussion of release.
That being said, a limited run would make more sense though. Hard to imagine Brad Pitt being in essentially a B-Movie.
Yeah, I don't think it's meant to be a B-movie. If Apple is the financial muscle behind the movie, I could see them getting exclusive streaming rights while it still being a standard theatrical release. Honestly, if the reviews aren't stellar, I'll probably wait to stream it. I saw the plot as Pitt is a retired driver making a comeback. He's 59! He looks good for his age, but he doesn't look 41 or whatever MSC was when he came back, and we were worried about him having lost a step! Might be too unrealistic just on that alone. I mean it's not open wheelers on city streets bad, but still.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Wallio »

I'm more skeptical than not. Both Rush and Ford Vs. Ferrari, for all their issues, were solid films and mostly accurate (in broad strokes). Gran Turismo looks comically bad (despite the thing being based on the GT Driver Academy) and the "movie" part of Grid Legends was cringe-inducing, probably the reason the game was given away for free.

Do I think it will be another Driven? No, but despite the similar setup (filming on site, etc) and star power, I don't think it will match Days of Thunder, either.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Bleu »

Like last year, there is a rule that teams have to use a driver with a maximum of two Grands Prix of experience once in each car during the free practice of one event.

Three teams have filled part of this once this year - in Bahrain as Piastri, de Vries and Sargeant filled the requirement.

Last year Abu Dhabi Grand Prix had seven rookie drivers in FP1 (plus Kubica was driving for Alfa Romeo) and I feel there could be even more this year.

After Silverstone there is 12 races remaining. And it's easy to say that six of them won't have rookie drivers. Singapore and Las Vegas are seen as too risky tracks (plus the fact that the latter is a new circuit, so regular drivers need track time) while Spa, Lusail, Austin and Sao Paulo have sprint races.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

Yeah, one issue with so many teams doing it is it turns the young driver test into an extended session effectively, starting the Friday before the race. Which is obviously not its original intention.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by RAK »

Those McLaren upgrades seem to be the real deal; thought for a moment that Norris might even topple Verstappen.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

I really thought Norris had the pole there, with Verstappen having a yellow middle sector behind him.

Poor old Perez can't qualify for love nor money at the moment, can he?
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Early ROTR nomination to Jolyon Palmer who apparently is auditioning for a spot on Sky. All Friday he insisted that Mercedes was just sandbagging for....reasons and then argued with James Hinchcliff about it. He then snidely poked fun at Hinch for "writing them off" when they made Q3. He also claimed Sargent had "another failure of a weekend" despite him being P5 in FP2 and P7 in FP3. How dare a rookie slide outside track limits when it's damp? Finally, during Max's final pole run, he excitedly yelled: "He's not going to get it! He's not doing enough!" only for Max to be TWO TENTHS up.

I usually like Palmer, but man, I watched all four sessions this weekend, and supposedly he did too, and we watched two totally different events.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Paul Hayes wrote: 08 Jul 2023, 15:19 I really thought Norris had the pole there, with Verstappen having a yellow middle sector behind him.

Poor old Perez can't qualify for love nor money at the moment, can he?
In qualifying trim at least, his performance has fallen off a cliff quite spectacularly - five consecutive races where he's failed to make Q3 is, by far and away, the worst performance of any driver in the top 10, with his average qualifying position over the season now being a lowly 10.1. Over the last five races, his average qualifying position of 14.8 is one of the worst runs of form he has had in his career - even most of his stints at Force India saw him qualifying higher up the grid on average.

The underlying pace of the car has partially bailed him out in race trim - but, given Red Bull have floated a few public comments talking about how they like the look of Ricciardo's performance in the simulator and floating the idea of putting him into an Alpha Tauri car for a practice session or two, you do wonder how long Red Bull will tolerate those performances. That said, they don't seem to be pressuring Perez in the way that Gasly or Albon were being pressured in public over their performances relative to Max.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Spectoremg »

Wallio wrote: 08 Jul 2023, 19:54 Early ROTR nomination to Jolyon Palmer who apparently is auditioning for a spot on Sky. All Friday he insisted that Mercedes was just sandbagging for....reasons and then argued with James Hinchcliff about it. He then snidely poked fun at Hinch for "writing them off" when they made Q3. He also claimed Sargent had "another failure of a weekend" despite him being P5 in FP2 and P7 in FP3. How dare a rookie slide outside track limits when it's damp? Finally, during Max's final pole run, he excitedly yelled: "He's not going to get it! He's not doing enough!" only for Max to be TWO TENTHS up.

I usually like Palmer, but man, I watched all four sessions this weekend, and supposedly he did too, and we watched two totally different events.
Can I nominate the whole C4 team? In particular Alex Jacques? He's clearly aspiring to the Sky 'nothing is boring' ethos. And I'm ahead of you with Palmer, he's been irritating me for a long time. We also need a few more mentions of how wonderful Silverstone is - particularly the esses. Streamlining the section between Abbey and Wellington would help make it great again.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

Sadly not quite the thrills and spills we had last year. Nice to see Williams having another good race, though, with Albon once again impressive - passing a Ferrari, no less!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Har1MAS1415 »

Will Nyck de Vries last until the end of the season? Just throwing it out there.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Spectoremg wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 09:25
Can I nominate the whole C4 team? In particular Alex Jacques? He's clearly aspiring to the Sky 'nothing is boring' ethos. And I'm ahead of you with Palmer, he's been irritating me for a long time. We also need a few more mentions of how wonderful Silverstone is - particularly the esses. Streamlining the section between Abbey and Wellington would help make it great again.
We didn't have Alex on F1 TV this week. We had Ben Anderson, who is a major improvement. James Hinchcliff was actually very, very good. Guess Palmer had to go off to try to bring some form of crap to the booth this week lol.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx »

I'd have to make an exception for Billy Monger.After C4 did the obligatory 'after-an-accident-interview' with Robert Kubica when he first joined, he's settled in nicely-commentary has been clear and concise and his points have been worthwhile contributions,not subject to wild hype-and having raced with some of the new bugs,he's been able to add some useful insights about them as drivers.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Har1MAS1415 wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 18:24 Will Nyck de Vries last until the end of the season? Just throwing it out there.
I think that he might just last until the end of the season, if only because it's plausible to me that Red Bull might put Liam Lawson into one of the Alpha Tauri cars in a free practice session first.

I suspect Lawson is probably the driver most likely to replace de Vries right now, and running Lawson in a free practice session would enable them to run a more direct comparison between Lawson and de Vries - it'd be a bit awkward if Lawson was a bit underwhelming too.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Har1MAS1415 »

mario wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 21:18
Har1MAS1415 wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 18:24 Will Nyck de Vries last until the end of the season? Just throwing it out there.
I think that he might just last until the end of the season, if only because it's plausible to me that Red Bull might put Liam Lawson into one of the Alpha Tauri cars in a free practice session first.

I suspect Lawson is probably the driver most likely to replace de Vries right now, and running Lawson in a free practice session would enable them to run a more direct comparison between Lawson and de Vries - it'd be a bit awkward if Lawson was a bit underwhelming too.
It's not like Red Bull haven't been in this situation before though but I understand.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Har1MAS1415 wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 21:30
mario wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 21:18
Har1MAS1415 wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 18:24 Will Nyck de Vries last until the end of the season? Just throwing it out there.
I think that he might just last until the end of the season, if only because it's plausible to me that Red Bull might put Liam Lawson into one of the Alpha Tauri cars in a free practice session first.

I suspect Lawson is probably the driver most likely to replace de Vries right now, and running Lawson in a free practice session would enable them to run a more direct comparison between Lawson and de Vries - it'd be a bit awkward if Lawson was a bit underwhelming too.
It's not like Red Bull haven't been in this situation before though but I understand.
It is true that the team probably would have been more willing to chop and change drivers in the past, but it may be that Red Bull view this season as more of a means of testing things for 2024, which may make replacing de Vries a lower priority than restructuring the technical department - they have already talked about reforming the technical side of the team ahead of the 2024 season.

Similarly, it does seem as if Red Bull have been giving their rookie drivers a bit more leeway and are prepared to invest a bit more in them once they are in F1. We've seen with Tsunoda that they insisted on Tsunoda having to relocate closer to the team's headquarters and doing more work, both in terms of physical fitness and technical studies, so it may be that they might consider a similar training programme for de Vries.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Har1MAS1415 wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 18:24 Will Nyck de Vries last until the end of the season? Just throwing it out there.
No.

Place your bets on who will be the unlucky victim to be sacked after scoring zero points in the remainder of the season, in a car that deserves exactly that. Will Liam Lawson's bright future be torn to shreds in the Red Bull Junior meat mincer? Or will the smile be permanently wiped off Daniel Ricciardo's face after he realises this is the worst car he's driven since the "Cool Spot" HRT? BET NOW! BET! BET! BET!

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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Media already have Ricciardo in the seat.

Reckon RB's main motivation here is getting a look at Ricciardo, to see should he replace Perez. De Vries' lack of performance has just given them an easy excuse. Be interesting if he's beaten by Tsunoda.

Lawson will come in next season.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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If Ricciardo gets beaten by Tsunoda, that's really the end of the line for him.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Rob Dylan wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 15:14 If Ricciardo gets beaten by Tsunoda, that's really the end of the line for him.
Tsunoda to Red Bull to slay Max.
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Enforcer wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 15:21
Rob Dylan wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 15:14 If Ricciardo gets beaten by Tsunoda, that's really the end of the line for him.
Tsunoda to Red Bull to slay Max.
When he goes to RB before season end :deletraz:
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Enforcer wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 14:54 Media already have Ricciardo in the seat.

Reckon RB's main motivation here is getting a look at Ricciardo, to see should he replace Perez. De Vries' lack of performance has just given them an easy excuse. Be interesting if he's beaten by Tsunoda.

Lawson will come in next season.
I guess so - I had thought that Red Bull would wait until the end of the season before firing de Vries, but I agree that placing Ricciardo there suggests they are looking at the option of potentially replacing Perez with Ricciardo.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Do Max and Lando have similar driving styles/preferences in regards the instability of the rear end? If so, it doesn't bode will for Danny's chances in the current Red Bull dynamic.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 16:00 Do Max and Lando have similar driving styles/preferences in regards the instability of the rear end? If so, it doesn't bode will for Danny's chances in the current Red Bull dynamic.
I believe that the issue with the McLaren cars was not so much about rear end instability, but more to do with changes in the handling balance during corner entry.

It was noted that Lando tended to have a distinctive way of braking that aimed to get rapid forward weight transfer on corner entry, which was thought to be related to trying to address issues with understeer.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

It does seem a shame for de Vries, especially after that great drive for Williams at Monza last year. But not entirely surprising that this has happened.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by takagi_for_the_win »

Personally the weirdest thing for me is that de Vries got the drive in the first place - Red Bull taking a 27 year old who was never affiliated with them, and putting him into their junior team off the back of an admittedly good one-off performance, but one that took place on a track perfectly suited to an otherwise dreadful car. Very much seemed to me a case of them clicking "buy it now" on the flavour of the month last October rather than any reasoned decision.

Also doesn't really scream to the strengths of the Red Bull Young Driver program (if that's even still a thing?) if the three drivers to have driven for the junior team this season are Tsunoda (not set the world on fire at any point in three seasons bar his debut), de Vries (essentially a 28 year old rookie), and Ricciardo (broke into F1 12 years ago and seemingly on the way out of the sport).
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Alextrax52 »

takagi_for_the_win wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 21:23 Personally the weirdest thing for me is that de Vries got the drive in the first place - Red Bull taking a 27 year old who was never affiliated with them, and putting him into their junior team off the back of an admittedly good one-off performance, but one that took place on a track perfectly suited to an otherwise dreadful car. Very much seemed to me a case of them clicking "buy it now" on the flavour of the month last October rather than any reasoned decision.

Also doesn't really scream to the strengths of the Red Bull Young Driver program (if that's even still a thing?) if the three drivers to have driven for the junior team this season are Tsunoda (not set the world on fire at any point in three seasons bar his debut), de Vries (essentially a 28 year old rookie), and Ricciardo (broke into F1 12 years ago and seemingly on the way out of the sport).
You’ve summed up exactly what I was thinking regards De Vries. In football there’s often a saying that it’s a risk to buy players off the back of 3-4 decent games at a World Cup or Continental Championship and Red Bull kinda showed that by signing De Vries off the back of that one stellar performance at Monza when it was clear that last years Williams was suited to power tracks (let’s not forget Albon started 6th and finished 10th on the equally high speed Spa)

What does it say about the Red Bull Junior Team that not only did De Vries get the seat having been 2nd choice to Colton Herta initially but now he’s being replaced by a 34 year old Ricciardo who’s damaged goods after his bruising spell at McLaren? Imagine being Liam Lawson or Ayumu Iwasa and seeing that news today when I think both of them could come in and do a better job.

As for Ricciardo himself he’s clearly only taking that seat to see if he’s still capable of getting back into the Red Bull drive, I also think this is a ploy from Red Bull to put pressure on Perez and get him to up his game after what’s happened to his season since Miami.
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Row Man Gross-Gene
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

mario wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 19:33
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 16:00 Do Max and Lando have similar driving styles/preferences in regards the instability of the rear end? If so, it doesn't bode will for Danny's chances in the current Red Bull dynamic.
I believe that the issue with the McLaren cars was not so much about rear end instability, but more to do with changes in the handling balance during corner entry.

It was noted that Lando tended to have a distinctive way of braking that aimed to get rapid forward weight transfer on corner entry, which was thought to be related to trying to address issues with understeer.

Thanks Mario
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James1978
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by James1978 »

Never thought De Vries should have been in that seat anyway - he's essentially a Mercedes man and having him in their arch-rivals' squad didn't really fit for me. If anything he should have been in a Williams. Checo better watch it!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". :) (Tony Jardine, 1988)
Har1MAS1415
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Har1MAS1415 »

dinizintheoven wrote: 11 Jul 2023, 14:18
Har1MAS1415 wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 18:24 Will Nyck de Vries last until the end of the season? Just throwing it out there.
No.

Place your bets on who will be the unlucky victim to be sacked after scoring zero points in the remainder of the season, in a car that deserves exactly that. Will Liam Lawson's bright future be torn to shreds in the Red Bull Junior meat mincer? Or will the smile be permanently wiped off Daniel Ricciardo's face after he realises this is the worst car he's driven since the "Cool Spot" HRT? BET NOW! BET! BET! BET!

(cue dramatic "Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaai!" from Yuki)

BETTING ENDS!
Didn't think he would at the rate he was going.
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Spectoremg
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Spectoremg »

MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote: 09 Jul 2023, 20:24 I'd have to make an exception for Billy Monger.After C4 did the obligatory 'after-an-accident-interview' with Robert Kubica when he first joined, he's settled in nicely-commentary has been clear and concise and his points have been worthwhile contributions,not subject to wild hype-and having raced with some of the new bugs,he's been able to add some useful insights about them as drivers.
Agreed, Billy's a smart guy.
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