2023 Discussion Thread

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

As an aside, is it just me, or does it come across as a bit of muscle flexing by the FIA, or rather by Sulayem

Yes, the whole process reeks of a chess game by both sides with Andretti used as a pawn, especially by the FIA side (Sulayem). Even so, I would prefer for a new team to come in and liven the place up, but especially one with racing competence and heritage. (I know some will say the competence is debatable )

[Rob Dylan]

It does seem, as Row Man Gross-Gene alludes to, a precedent being set here by the Andretti group and the FIA as much as anything. Maybe I'm just applying my appreciation of what's going on, but the fact that Andretti would try to enter in spite of all the hostility they are facing from the existing groups AND the exorbitant fee being imposed upon them for entering, almost feels as much a protest as anything else. Much like with Giedo van der Garde (the example you were citing), it feels like even though I wouldn't expect Andretti to grace the blessed F1 grid with a new team, I still expect them to make some serious impact in how the team cabal is being organised, and what the routes are to future entry, whether that's with Andretti themselves later on down the line, or other interested parties.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Giedo van der Garde

That's who it was, thanks! Yes, I hope that whatever the outcome of a possible Andretti entry ends up being, the parties get their shite together so that in the future there can be a little more sanity with respect to new teams.

[mario]

As an aside, is it just me, or does it come across as a bit of muscle flexing by the FIA, or rather by Sulayem

Yes, the whole process reeks of a chess game by both sides with Andretti used as a pawn, especially by the FIA side (Sulayem). Even so, I would prefer for a new team to come in and liven the place up, but especially one with racing competence and heritage. (I know some will say the competence is debatable )

At least I'm not the only one - I do have to agree that it does feel as if there is a significant element of Sulayem showboating, with the Andretti's simply being a convenient means for him to do so.

It does seem, as Row Man Gross-Gene alludes to, a precedent being set here by the Andretti group and the FIA as much as anything. Maybe I'm just applying my appreciation of what's going on, but the fact that Andretti would try to enter in spite of all the hostility they are facing from the existing groups AND the exorbitant fee being imposed upon them for entering, almost feels as much a protest as anything else. Much like with Giedo van der Garde (the example you were citing), it feels like even though I wouldn't expect Andretti to grace the blessed F1 grid with a new team, I still expect them to make some serious impact in how the team cabal is being organised, and what the routes are to future entry, whether that's with Andretti themselves later on down the line, or other interested parties.

On the flip side, there might be those within F1 who feel that Michael Andretti has come across as being a bit arrogant himself with the number of other racing series that he's talked about joining simultaneously.

It's not just Formula 1 that he is hoping to enter - he wants to be racing in all of the following series by 2025:
Formula 1
Formula 2
Formula 3
IndyCar
Indy Lights
NASCAR
IMSA Sportscar Championship (in the GTP category and GTD categories)
FIA World Endurance Championship (LMDh category)
Formula E
Australian Supercars Championship
Extreme E

Added to that, Michael also wants to construct at least one, and possibly multiple, factories in Europe - he's said that he wants a facility in Europe to help his F1 team, and has suggested a possible second facility for his plans to enter the WEC - and also wants to found his own young driver school.

That's a fairly sizeable list of series that he has talked about committing to, all within just a couple of years, alongside wanting to expand the infrastructure of his team into a multi-national effort. It's hard to think of any other privately run team that has that many commitments to multiple major racing series simultaneously.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

significant element of Sulayem showboating

We probably got a little spoiled by the several years of a relatively quiet Jean Todt. That's not to say anything good or bad about what he accomplished, just that he wasn't noisy in the way of Sulayem or Max or Balestre.

[mario]

significant element of Sulayem showboating

We probably got a little spoiled by the several years of a relatively quiet Jean Todt. That's not to say anything good or bad about what he accomplished, just that he wasn't noisy in the way of Sulayem or Max or Balestre.

I don't know - even compared to Mosely or Balestre, Sulayem's style of management does come across as being more egocentric. With their actions, it generally felt more like wanting to push the authority of the FIA as an institution - with Sulayem, it seems to be more about promoting the personal authority and power of the President of the FIA.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

significant element of Sulayem showboating

We probably got a little spoiled by the several years of a relatively quiet Jean Todt. That's not to say anything good or bad about what he accomplished, just that he wasn't noisy in the way of Sulayem or Max or Balestre.

I don't know - even compared to Mosely or Balestre, Sulayem's style of management does come across as being more egocentric. With their actions, it generally felt more like wanting to push the authority of the FIA as an institution - with Sulayem, it seems to be more about promoting the personal authority and power of the President of the FIA.

I can't disagree with that, it may certainly be true. And despite Max's failings, at least he had a pretty positive impact on the evolution of safety. Honestly we're getting past the extent of my knowledge here, almost all of my knowledge of Mosely and Balestre are from Nigel Roebuck articles and a couple of documentaries.

[mario]

On another note, it seems that there is a new rumour going round that appears to have been started by a reporter for Radio Le Mans, and it is a claim that Audi are now looking at shutting down their Formula 1 programme at the end of this year.

If that is the case, then suddenly things aren't looking so great for Sauber...

[IceG]

Well looks like RoTR is self-selecting.

The track is eating tyres. The tyres are self-destructing so we have stupidly high front pressures and mandated limited life. Throw in random cross-winds and a surface more suited to the Paris-Dakar.

The qualy sessions were both farces. Lord knows what the races will be like. We will probably find out the result next Thursday after all the reviews and appeals.

This is what happens when you try to run an F1 race on a motorcycle circuit. The fact that it had to be totally rebuilt after the last event might have been a clue.

[dr-baker]

Quotation of the weekend goes to Oscar Piastri: "I'll just give the FIA a minute for track limits..."

[Paul Hayes]

There was a fair bit of excitement in that - let's hope it bodes well for the race tomorrow, although with Max on pole for that one I suspect not.

[IceG]

Rather got the impression that track limits are not being enforced. Maybe because it was a short race. Or perhaps because, as Hamilton said, there is no advantage by running over the line so just let the show go on.

[dinizintheoven]

Rather got the impression that track limits are not being enforced.

Sacre Bleu! Deux points dans la poubelle!

...or whatever they say in Monaco.

[IceG]

We will probably find out the result next Thursday after all the reviews and appeals.

Rather got the impression that track limits are not being enforced.

Sacre Bleu! Deux points dans la poubelle!

...or whatever they say in Monaco.

The penalties were announced at 21:08 local time, so one or two hours after the end of the race.

[IceG]

Terrible race for Perez, Stroll and Sargeant.

Perez has still not settled into "take second and enjoy it" mode, making many mistakes and being in the wrong place all the time. Surely his time at Red Bull is limited to a maximum of one more season.

Stroll was terrible all weekend. With his petulant reaction during qualy he should be out of the team except it is daddy's decision. Aston will never win a championship with him in the car. Just let him go and do an MBA. Albon would be a good replacement for teammate to an Alonso who sadly finally looked his age.

Sargeant sealed his fate here. Yes it is a very tough race and lots of drivers were suffering but his lack of fitness and lack of race results surely mean he cannot be considered for 2024.

[mario]

Terrible race for Perez, Stroll and Sargeant.

Perez has still not settled into "take second and enjoy it" mode, making many mistakes and being in the wrong place all the time. Surely his time at Red Bull is limited to a maximum of one more season.

Stroll was terrible all weekend. With his petulant reaction during qualy he should be out of the team except it is daddy's decision. Aston will never win a championship with him in the car. Just let him go and do an MBA. Albon would be a good replacement for teammate to an Alonso who sadly finally looked his age.

Sargeant sealed his fate here. Yes it is a very tough race and lots of drivers were suffering but his lack of fitness and lack of race results surely mean he cannot be considered for 2024.

Sargeant had to pull out due to severe dehydration, which ended up with him having to receive treatment in the medical centre. However, Albon also had to be taken to the medical centre for treatment after the race, whilst Magnussen, Ocon and Stroll have all reported having severe side effects due to heat stress. https://www.racefans.net/2023/10/08/dan ... r-drivers/

If his own team mate had to be taken to the medical centre for treatment after the race, and if at least a quarter of the grid were reporting health problems due to heat stress and dehydration, then Sargeant was hardly the odd one out.

[MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx]

Just out of interest, are we officially counting Oscar as a Grand Prix race winner?

[dr-baker]

Just out of interest, are we officially counting Oscar as a Grand Prix race winner?

He's definitely a Formula One Championship race winner, but it wasn't a Grand Prix that he won....

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Just out of interest, are we officially counting Oscar as a Grand Prix race winner?

He's definitely a Formula One Championship race winner, but it wasn't a Grand Prix that he won....

I concur with Doc.

[mario]

I have to say that I'm a little surprised that there does not seem to have been any comments about Bernie pleading guilty in his latest fraud trial and agreeing to pay £653 million in compensation to HMRC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67088503

I guess that it is a reflection of how Bernie's influence and relevance to Formula 1 has dissipated since Liberty Media took over that it's passed with only a moderate stirring of interest. It also has to be said that, even for somebody as wealthy as Bernie, that settlement is likely to sting quite a lot - considering that some had estimated his fortune to be around £2.5 billion prior to this announcement, that's about 25% of his wealth disappearing in that deal.

On a different note, it seems that one prediction by Joe Saward about the Andretti entry has now proven to be correct. A few days ago, Famin confirmed that the original option that the Andretti team had with them to supply them with customer engines expired several months ago, and there have not been any further negotiations with the team since then.

As things stand, Famin has said that Alpine are prepared to reopen negotiations with Andretti, but it would be conditional on Andretti successfully negotiating a deal with FOM first. Additionally, whilst Michael has said he wants to enter in 2025, Famin has warned that they will not be able to guarantee a supply of engines for Andretti if there isn't an agreement in place by early 2024 due to the time it would take them to expand their production capabilities. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/alpin ... /10531585/

[Wallio]

I have to say that I'm a little surprised that there does not seem to have been any comments about Bernie pleading guilty in his latest fraud trial and agreeing to pay £653 million in compensation to HMRC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67088503

Full disclosure, I honestly did not realize Bernie was still alive.



In far worse news, Alpine's courted more celeb investors, including the king of the frat boys, Travis Kelce. The same Travis Kelce who's relationship with Taylor Swift had the NFL cutting away from games he wasn't even playing in, to show him and her getting off buses, etc. It got so bad the NFL was forced to release a press release defending their coverage. So y'all though Liberty's coverage was bad before......just wait!

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I have to say that I'm a little surprised that there does not seem to have been any comments about Bernie pleading guilty in his latest fraud trial and agreeing to pay £653 million in compensation to HMRC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67088503

I guess that it is a reflection of how Bernie's influence and relevance to Formula 1 has dissipated since Liberty Media took over that it's passed with only a moderate stirring of interest. It also has to be said that, even for somebody as wealthy as Bernie, that settlement is likely to sting quite a lot - considering that some had estimated his fortune to be around £2.5 billion prior to this announcement, that's about 25% of his wealth disappearing in that deal.

I think you're right that it's a testament to how far Bernie's relevance has fallen. I think Bernie sowed the seeds for this fall himself. I know that some of the old guys who talk about him fondly (at least regarding the pre-CVC days), would say at least he was a racer at heart or he did various positive things for the sport, or perhaps talk about how the teams shot themselves in the foot so many times thus adding to his power (so presumably, they had only themselves to blame).

I don't really buy it. In the end he was no less corporation-like than Liberty has been. And it was under Bernie that this site's precursor was unceremoniously dispatched. He thought F1 was a luxury good like a Louis Vuitton bag (or Hublot watch ). There is plenty to dislike about how Liberty is doing things, but I definitely would never go back. And the periodic articles over the last few years where Bernie would complain about how nobody at F1 ever calls or wonders what I think... What did he expect?

And none of this touches on the actual financial malfeasance he is guilty of throughout his time in charge, of which this last judgement was just one. Honestly, the massive fine is a fitting end to his F1 story at this point. That said, maybe I'd be singing a different tune if we'd been successful in introducing Doc to one of the Ecclestone daughters back in the day!

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I have to say that I'm a little surprised that there does not seem to have been any comments about Bernie pleading guilty in his latest fraud trial and agreeing to pay £653 million in compensation to HMRC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67088503

Full disclosure, I honestly did not realize Bernie was still alive.



In far worse news, Alpine's courted more celeb investors, including the king of the frat boys, Travis Kelce. The same Travis Kelce who's relationship with Taylor Swift had the NFL cutting away from games he wasn't even playing in, to show him and her getting off buses, etc. It got so bad the NFL was forced to release a press release defending their coverage. So y'all though Liberty's coverage was bad before......just wait!

You can be forgiven for the first part!

I'm curious about that Kelce thing. It's been publicized that his net worth is nowhere near what some of the other celebrities have, so it would be a little weird. I guess let him buy in for peanuts and on the off chance Taylor Swift shows up for a race and it will all be worth it? I thought Swift had played a post-race concert sometime in the not-to-distant past?

[Wallio]

Travis and his brother (and mother) like to attach themselves to whatever is hot currently, as they just have to be in the spotlight. Currently that i podcasts, F1 and yes Taylor Swift. Now I don't mind Taylor as such (like most things I don't like, it's her FANS I can't stand, not her), but I HATE, HATE, HATE the Kelce's, always have. It's 100% on brand for him to put in the money for like 1% of the team (in a country he wouldn't be able to find on a map) and show up in Vegas and order the mechanics around.

You are correct that Taylor played a concert at COTA one year (long before she achieved this almost cult like level of popularity) and thats fine, because they didn't stop the race coverage to show her drinking daquiris, or force the network to run UNPAID plugs for her movie (two things the NFL has done).

Once again I must ask, if Alpine is clearly this hard up, why not just sell out to Andretti?

[Rob Dylan]

Ryan Reynolds put in some money as well a few months back. I wonder what the actual investment reason is for the investors? What magical formula is such a middling and uninspiring F1 team giving to these vacuous Americans who don't even know anything about F1 ah I think I partly answered my question.

But why Alpine and not an underdog like Williams, for example? Given what Reynolds did pumping all the money into that football team, you'd think the same inspiration would apply with an old successful team now struggling for pace and actually needing a cash injection (instead of just lifelines from venture capitalists who could pack up any minute).

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I'm definitely not sold on the Ryan Reynolds thing either. I read an article about the Wrexham thing analyzed in terms of the Welcome to Wrexham TV series and it's not overly flattering in my opinion. On the surface, it's marketed as a couple of actors swooping in and saving a club. It turns out to be more complicated than that (and more business-like too). In the latest series, one of the actors basically says "If we don't get promoted this year, this thing is not sustainable". Really? The club was just promoted and now they need to be promoted again one year later in order to be sustainable? The club has existed from time immemorial in this state and all of a sudden now it's unsustainable? That tells me that the money they've brought is debt, not their own money and if they can't raise their advertising rates next year, the loans are coming due and maybe they'll bankrupt the club. They're not risking very much of their own money. They're certainly not Frank Williams types who'd mortgage their house to go racing. But even if they're bringing all their own money, they're splashing it all out in a get rich(er) or die trying thing rather than planning for the long-term. Sorry for the rant...

[Wallio]

But why Alpine and not an underdog like Williams, for example? Given what Reynolds did pumping all the money into that football team, you'd think the same inspiration would apply with an old successful team now struggling for pace and actually needing a cash injection (instead of just lifelines from venture capitalists who could pack up any minute).

Dorliton actually seems to get F1, which after seeing what Gainbridge and Genji have done, is a breath of fresh air. I do also wonder if it has something to do with Renault/Alpine being state-owned? While here in America the news has been dominated by Ukraine/Russia and now Israel/Gaza, before that the news we were getting out of France was.....unstable? Hard to justify pension cuts if you're funding an eight-figure race team.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

An article on the-race.com that makes me question Gunther's sanity a little bit:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/haas ... out-of-f1/

In the article it's stated that Haas turned down Andretti's buyout but also that Haas is losing money (or making very, very little). If Haas is in it for the money, why not cash out with the Andretti offer. Now if Andretti's offer was somehow below an amount that would cause Gene to at least break even, then they have some right to their disdain for Andretti's offer. Except the FIA has said Andretti has the money to run a competitive team and pay the $200 million buy-in fee, which (added together) should be more than enough for a reasonable offer on Haas. It seems like somebody's got to be lying. I just don't know who. Or what am I missing otherwise? Just to note that the article is really about the reasoning the poorer teams have for keeping Andretti out, so I'm only picking up on a small part of the article...

[mario]

I have to say that I'm a little surprised that there does not seem to have been any comments about Bernie pleading guilty in his latest fraud trial and agreeing to pay £653 million in compensation to HMRC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67088503

I guess that it is a reflection of how Bernie's influence and relevance to Formula 1 has dissipated since Liberty Media took over that it's passed with only a moderate stirring of interest. It also has to be said that, even for somebody as wealthy as Bernie, that settlement is likely to sting quite a lot - considering that some had estimated his fortune to be around £2.5 billion prior to this announcement, that's about 25% of his wealth disappearing in that deal.

I think you're right that it's a testament to how far Bernie's relevance has fallen. I think Bernie sowed the seeds for this fall himself. I know that some of the old guys who talk about him fondly (at least regarding the pre-CVC days), would say at least he was a racer at heart or he did various positive things for the sport, or perhaps talk about how the teams shot themselves in the foot so many times thus adding to his power (so presumably, they had only themselves to blame).

I don't really buy it. In the end he was no less corporation-like than Liberty has been. And it was under Bernie that this site's precursor was unceremoniously dispatched. He thought F1 was a luxury good like a Louis Vuitton bag (or Hublot watch ). There is plenty to dislike about how Liberty is doing things, but I definitely would never go back. And the periodic articles over the last few years where Bernie would complain about how nobody at F1 ever calls or wonders what I think... What did he expect?

And none of this touches on the actual financial malfeasance he is guilty of throughout his time in charge, of which this last judgement was just one. Honestly, the massive fine is a fitting end to his F1 story at this point. That said, maybe I'd be singing a different tune if we'd been successful in introducing Doc to one of the Ecclestone daughters back in the day!

I suppose we do need to take into account the fact that Bernie was active in the sport for 45 years, and Bernie's role did evolve quite a bit over such an extensive period of time. The viewpoint that some might take on Bernie's career is likely to be coloured quite a bit by which part of his career that they are thinking of and how it impacted them at the time.

As an aside, I would point out that, when you mention that Bernie "thought F1 was a luxury good like a Louis Vuitton bag (or Hublot watch )" - does that not have a number of parallels with the way that Liberty Media has sought to market F1 in the USA? Certainly, the idea of selling the perception of exclusivity and decadent excess is something that Miami played quite heavily into, whilst the upcoming race in Las Vegas is taking that to heart - and wallet - even more eagerly.

Travis and his brother (and mother) like to attach themselves to whatever is hot currently, as they just have to be in the spotlight. Currently that i podcasts, F1 and yes Taylor Swift. Now I don't mind Taylor as such (like most things I don't like, it's her FANS I can't stand, not her), but I HATE, HATE, HATE the Kelce's, always have. It's 100% on brand for him to put in the money for like 1% of the team (in a country he wouldn't be able to find on a map) and show up in Vegas and order the mechanics around.

You are correct that Taylor played a concert at COTA one year (long before she achieved this almost cult like level of popularity) and thats fine, because they didn't stop the race coverage to show her drinking daquiris, or force the network to run UNPAID plugs for her movie (two things the NFL has done).

Once again I must ask, if Alpine is clearly this hard up, why not just sell out to Andretti?

The details of that deal are a little unclear to me, so maybe you could help clear this up.

It seems that there are a swathe of celebrity names that have been linked to this deal - the list that has been given is Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce, Anthony Joshua and Rory McIlroy - as well as the previous announcement of Ryan Reynolds.

However, as far as I can tell, all of these various figures don't actually seem to be acquiring any new shares in Alpine. Instead, it seems that what has happened is that the original three companies that were involved - Otro Capital, RedBird Capital Partners and Maximum Effort Investments - are still collectively planning to buy 24% of the shares in the Alpine team.

The first two companies, it seems, are using Ryan Reynolds's connections - Ryan Reynolds being the owner of Maximum Effort Investments - to effectively persuade those celebrities to invest money and help publicise the deal, which in turn reduces the amount of initial capital that those first two companies have to raise. Does that tie in with the details that are being reported in other news outlets?

As for why the deal is taking place, Luca de Meo's plans to rapidly expand the Alpine brand in the USA seems to be the answer. Luca de Meo has set some ambitious plans for Alpine, which involve increasing turnover to €8 billion a year, expanding their product line up from one model to seven and also switching all of their cars over to electric drive by 2030.

Part of that also involves pushing into the US market, with plans to have a network of dealers in that country by 2027. Whilst the investment in the Formula 1 team is the part that's made the headline news, Alpine also announced at the end of 2022 that they were partnering with RedBird and AutoNation as part of their plans to create a dealer network in the USA.

In that sense, although the headline investment is in the Formula 1 team, this seems to be tied in with the wider investment in scaling up Alpine and expanding into the US market. The €200 million investment in the F1 team is creating positive headlines and drawing a lot of attention to the Alpine marque in the US just as de Meo is keen to make people aware of the brand and needs additional sources of capital to help pay for that expansion into the US market.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

As an aside, I would point out that, when you mention that Bernie "thought F1 was a luxury good like a Louis Vuitton bag (or Hublot watch )" - does that not have a number of parallels with the way that Liberty Media has sought to market F1 in the USA?

It absolutely does have those parallels. That's the super-corporate or very business-y trait that Bernie had that is exactly like Liberty. When Bernie was selling Connaughts or representing Jochen Rindt or running Brabham, I can accept that he was a racer at heart, at least back then. So at least he has that going for him, he's a real person (which Liberty can never be, despite US legal precedent). I guess my real beef with Bernie (or Bernie-led FOM) was the treatment of Jamie and Enoch.

[Wallio]

As of right now Mario, what is being reported over here is very much "Celebs X, Y, and Z are now part owners" and "Celebs invest in F1 team" now if they are using a third party fund, that makes infinitely more sense (especially given what RoGro has told us about Reynolds soccer team), but I imagine that won't get the clicks they need.

The Alpine to the US thing is interesting to me. I'm someone who has BEGGED for Renaults over here for years (I want a Clio dammit!" while my father, being a mechanic during the Le Car days, definitely is the old guard of why they aren't here. However, Alpine interests me less. They only have one car, right? And IMO, F1 doesn't sell road cars (although they are in WEC now too). Be a fun few years if they do come over. Maserati and Alfa got big here quickly.

[mario]

As of right now Mario, what is being reported over here is very much "Celebs X, Y, and Z are now part owners" and "Celebs invest in F1 team" now if they are using a third party fund, that makes infinitely more sense (especially given what RoGro has told us about Reynolds soccer team), but I imagine that won't get the clicks they need.

The Alpine to the US thing is interesting to me. I'm someone who has BEGGED for Renaults over here for years (I want a Clio dammit!" while my father, being a mechanic during the Le Car days, definitely is the old guard of why they aren't here. However, Alpine interests me less. They only have one car, right? And IMO, F1 doesn't sell road cars (although they are in WEC now too). Be a fun few years if they do come over. Maserati and Alfa got big here quickly.

That makes sense - I get the impression that those firms probably intended for the press to report it as "celebs invest in F1 team" given that it helps publicise the deal and draws attention to the brand, particularly if they are invested in Alpine's potential future growth in the USA.

As for your question about Alpine's model range - Alpine does only have one model for sale right now, but they have announced multiple new models in the next couple of years.

2024 will see the A290, which will be Alpine's version of the Renault 5 hatchback that will also be launched that year, whilst for 2025 there will be a C-segment small SUV. 2026 will see an electric replacement for the A110, along with a four seat sports coupe called the A310. Finally, 2027 will see two further cars in what Alpine calls the D/E segments, which are expected to be crossovers that compete at the luxury end of the market. https://media.alpinecars.com/alpines-re ... -underway/

[dr-baker]

Discuss.

To be honest, while I am a big F1 fan, I don't always necessarily have the time to dedicate to watch ALL the ontrack action live. I often have to resort to watching on delay by half an hour or whatever, depending on timings and whatever else I have on. You can have too much of a good thing, I.e. sometimes less is more.

Plus, if it is not affecting the bottom line financially, what is the point from the perspective of F1 and Liberty?

[IceG]

It occurred to me that the format should be:

Friday:
- Practise
- Sprint Qualy

Saturday:
- Race Qualy
- Sprint

Sunday:
- Race

so that the less important qualy happens whilst most people are at work (Friday) and that the jeopardy of trying hard for the race qualy could impact on the sprint.

Also, parc ferme could be set between sprint qualy and race qualy to give the teams options and making sprint qualy a pseudo test session.

[mario]

Discuss.

To be honest, while I am a big F1 fan, I don't always necessarily have the time to dedicate to watch ALL the ontrack action live. I often have to resort to watching on delay by half an hour or whatever, depending on timings and whatever else I have on. You can have too much of a good thing, I.e. sometimes less is more.

Plus, if it is not affecting the bottom line financially, what is the point from the perspective of F1 and Liberty?

Given the reports that Liberty Media has been able to charge the circuits holding the sprint races a premium on top of their usual fee, as well as getting a bit more money out of the broadcasters, they probably believe that it is still worth it as it still benefits their bottom line. Still, I'm not completely surprised by those comments, as that it does seem to tie in with the experience of some of the other circuits that have held sprint races.

It's hard to tell with Baku, as figures are harder to come by there, but Austria seems to have seen virtually no difference in total attendance figures, despite holding a sprint race (304,000 this year and 303,000 in 2022).

Belgium and Qatar are both supposed to have registered increases, but the latter might be expected to have seen more attendees given it was the second race being held there and thus there was still a strong novelty factor - and the sprint race actually had fewer attendees than qualifying for the main race, as well as fewer than the main GP did too (38,725 attendees for the sprint race, versus 39,503 for qualifying for the main race and 48,168 for the main GP itself).

For Austin itself, the indication is that the total race weekend attendance is going to be similar to last year - the main effect of the sprint race seems to have been that people who might have attended on Friday or Saturday are now attending on Sunday instead (i.e. merely shifting people from one day to another).

TV viewing figures have also continued to show a similarly mixed picture at best, with the indication being that the total viewing figures for the race weekend are actually not that much better than for a normal weekend. As with what we've seen in Austin, it seems that there is more of a trend for people to skip the sprint race and instead shift their attention to the main race on Sunday.

For both the circuits and the TV broadcasters, the effect of the sprint races seems to be weaker than expected and is mainly just shifting fans from watching or attending on Friday and Saturday to Sunday. The selling points for the sprint races were increased fan engagement and greater appeal to more casual fans, but in practice the casual audience hasn't appeared and it seems that Liberty Media's own figures suggest fan engagement might actually be down on sprint weekends.

[Spectoremg]

The track limit police again.
Alex Jacques - get some valium and take lots of it.
Driver whining - 'there's another car on the track and it's distracting me'. Man up.

[Rob Dylan]

There was a lot of off-track action during the sprint, and I was a little confused as to why Hamilton didn't earn a penalty while Russell did. Different corners and different incidents of course, but both the same infringement

Aston Martin has completely dropped off the face of the earth to the point where I'm hearing conspiracies that the only possible reason or such a slowdown is that the FIA has told them off for something behind the scenes (like an illegal car ala Ferrari 2020). Regardless, it is quite an astonishing downturn in performance to see Alonso out in q1 and out in the race. Nobody even notices when stroll is p18 anymore, but when even Alonso is out of points contention in a sprint round, there's something seriously wrong.

[dr-baker]

[mario]

I do recall the Racefans site pointing out that there might have actually been an interesting issue if Hamilton had not started from the grid there.

I believe they found that there was a technicality in the regulations that meant that a minimum of one car was required to start from the grid in order for the race to resume after that red flag. I cannot remember the full details, but I think that, in theory, the drivers would not have been allowed to leave the pit lane if there was not at least one driver who took to the grid - which would have technically meant the race would have had to have been abandoned at that point.

[dr-baker]

I do recall the Racefans site pointing out that there might have actually been an interesting issue if Hamilton had not started from the grid there.

I believe they found that there was a technicality in the regulations that meant that a minimum of one car was required to start from the grid in order for the race to resume after that red flag. I cannot remember the full details, but I think that, in theory, the drivers would not have been allowed to leave the pit lane if there was not at least one driver who took to the grid - which would have technically meant the race would have had to have been abandoned at that point.

That is interesting.