2023 Discussion Thread

[Ducktanian]

I think one element of the whole "How good is Leclerc actually?" question, is that whilst Max has the entirety of Red Bull behind him in a well-oiled machine, Charles seems weirdly at odds with his own team. I know this has been clear for a while but Ferrari is not the well-oiled machine Red Bull is. I wonder if this is Leclerc failing to properly build a team around him despite being in that Ferrari for a fair number of years now, or whether its the fault of Ferrari for failing to harness Leclerc's potential. Either way, its not working.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I think one element of the whole "How good is Leclerc actually?" question, is that whilst Max has the entirety of Red Bull behind him in a well-oiled machine, Charles seems weirdly at odds with his own team. I know this has been clear for a while but Ferrari is not the well-oiled machine Red Bull is. I wonder if this is Leclerc failing to properly build a team around him despite being in that Ferrari for a fair number of years now, or whether its the fault of Ferrari for failing to harness Leclerc's potential. Either way, its not working.

I agree with all of that. It seems clear to me from all the other shenanigans that the team is the problem much more so than the driver. Plus the car is slow this year. Sunday, Sainz did everything right and ended up 5th. They took a step backward this season. I'd love to hear who you'd have in your open seat.

[mario]

Broken floor. He’s still plenty fast

I think that maybe the question is asking about other areas of Leclerc's performance. It's not just purely "is Leclerc fast", but about how consistently he can maintain that performance and how well he copes with changeable conditions.

In the past, his performance in wet weather conditions was a bit inconsistent, although it does seem to be improving in response to some modifications to his driving style that he has made in the past couple of years in wet weather.

Another aspect is the question over his strategy calls - sometimes Leclerc has seemed a bit passive in the car compared to Sainz when it has come to making calls on strategy. That may, in turn, be a reflection of the criticism over Ferrari's poor strategic decision making, which is the environment that Leclerc has spent most of his career within (whereas Sainz has had experience from multiple different teams).

He might be quick, but I think that we can also ask the question of consistency and how rounded his other skills are, such as with strategy, ability to set the car up and so forth.

That's fair enough Mario. Leclerc definitely makes more mistakes than I'd like to see at this point. He also doesn't have the strategic nous of his teammate or some others on the grid. That said, I don't think he's any more or less strategically minded than Max (obviously I could be wrong). If he was in the Red Bull instead of Max, I'm quite certain he'd be running away with the championship. If he was in the Red Bull along side Max, I think he'd be making it a much closer contest than Sergio is.

If I had a team with one open seat, who would I take right now from the current grid? In order: Max, Lewis, Tie(Norris/Leclerc), Alonso, Sainz, Russell. If it's a two-year or more contract, probably drop Alonso. I could understand moving him (Leclerc) a couple spots one way or the other depending on your opinion, but in any event, he's in the top echelon of the sport. Who would you have?

I suppose it would depend in turn what sort of team you think Ferrari are looking to build and what sort of partnership you would want for your drivers. Vasseur has indicated that he is looking to Leclerc to act as a leader for the team and somebody that the team can focus around. I do feel that, on an emotional level, Leclerc has indicated that he can rally the team around him - I am not quite so certain that translates across to technical or tactical decisions though.

If we're looking towards someone who has shown those sorts of leadership skills, I would probably lean a bit more towards Norris, given he has performed well in a similar position at McLaren. Norris is practically as experienced as Leclerc, but I feel he has shown a bit more tactical awareness and technical skill and is a bit less error prone.

[RAK]

Something that may be noteworthy here is that Charles Leclerc has 20 pole positions, but only 5 wins. Sergio Perez has six wins, but four of them came from Leclerc poles, while he's only been on pole thrice. I'm not going to dispute that terrible Ferrari strategies have played into this, but the combination of Leclerc driving for Ferrari has proved poor at converting poles to wins.

Anyway, that aside, if Piastri fulfills his early promise in a McLaren that has picked up form since the start of the season, he may be another consideration. I feel he was hard done by missing out on a race seat in 2022 when Zhou, who even if he has illustrated himself to be a competent journeyman in Formula One still came third in a two-horse race in 2021's Formula 2 Championship, picked up one right away.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Something that may be noteworthy here is that Charles Leclerc has 20 pole positions, but only 5 wins. Sergio Perez has six wins, but four of them came from Leclerc poles, while he's only been on pole thrice. I'm not going to dispute that terrible Ferrari strategies have played into this, but the combination of Leclerc driving for Ferrari has proved poor at converting poles to wins.

Anyway, that aside, if Piastri fulfills his early promise in a McLaren that has picked up form since the start of the season, he may be another consideration. I feel he was hard done by missing out on a race seat in 2022 when Zhou, who even if he has illustrated himself to be a competent journeyman in Formula One still came third in a two-horse race in 2021's Formula 2 Championship, picked up one right away.

I don't disagree with any of that really. Only thing I'd point out is that with many of Leclerc's poles, he had no chance of winning. In other words, several times he was putting the car in a place on the grid that it had no right to be. I think Sainz is an excellent benchmark and by and large, Leclerc has the measure of him.

That said, if someone thinks Norris or Russell or Sainz or Piastri are a better long-term prospect, that's a reasonable argument. What it really shows is how good the driving standards are right now in F1. We're really spoiled for choice at the moment. (And that's to say nothing of all the other great drivers, right now you could say almost everyone in F1 deserves to be there)

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

If we're looking towards someone who has shown those sorts of leadership skills, I would probably lean a bit more towards Norris, given he has performed well in a similar position at McLaren. Norris is practically as experienced as Leclerc, but I feel he has shown a bit more tactical awareness and technical skill and is a bit less error prone.

I agree and this is why I have him tied with Leclerc as my 3rd-best driver option at the moment. Like I said in another post, we're really spoiled for choice at the moment in F1, there are a lot of high-quality drivers in the sport. As a heat-check, do you think this is one of the highest-level groupings of drivers we've had?

Edit: I just had the thought, Leclerc has had some bad weekends this year, but has he been as crashy as Hamilton was in 2011? I feel like he's been no worse, and probably better, but I didn't try to look up the stats at all.

[Spectoremg]

If you want a laugh search Alpine supporters press conference. Dunno how the guy kept a straight face.
If one of you could upload it that would be great.

[CoopsII]

I don't know, maybe it's because I don't follow F1 as much as I used to, and I'm sure it's been covered plenty on here, but the whole Alex Palou palaver still leaves me like this..

[dinizintheoven]

I'm seeing a lot of fuss around at the moment about Logan Sargeant's future. Likely as not, he's fluffed his last real chance at getting points this season, and will be considered as another Latifi-grade misfit. "But wait!" scream the defenders. "Rookies aren't allowed time to develop these days, and he was pushed into F1 a year too early, and..."

Provided he's given the remainder of this season, would a year out, doing simulator work for Williams (if they have one) or other Merc-powered teams (if they'll let him) while racing in, say, DTM, make him a better driver overall? It looks to have worked for Alex Albon, it didn't do Nico Hülkenberg any harm in 2011, and there's the further examples of Felipe Massa and Fernando Alonso if we want to dig into earlier history.

Debate also rages about how many points Mick Schumacher would have scored in the second Williams, or Nyck de Vries if he hadn't gone for the AT disaster - Mick's having a year out now, and given the feedback that he's getting from the main Mercedes operation, he must be worth a punt in the Williams next year... right? And then when Sauber-Audi decide they want a German driver for their operation and poach him, Logan might be better equipped to handle the job at Williams. Or, who knows, maybe Andretti will be allowed onto the grid after all, or they'll take over Haas, and want an American driver who actually has a superlicence, unless Colton Herta gets one by then...

[Rob Dylan]

While I appreciate the sentiment regarding Sargeant (he isn't nearly incompetent enough to be held in the same vein as Latifi, even if he hasn't had the rare high moment that even Latifi was able to manage), I think that Mick Schumacher really has run his course, and I can't see for any reason other than good PR and potential sponsorship why a team would hire him as a full-time driver. He has a bit of a crash-prone reputation imo, which is somewhat ironic when his teammate was Nikita Mazepin for half that time, and I do feel like most of the events that have occurred in his favour have been done so for the PR, especially Mercedes' decision to employ him as test driver.

[Wallio]

In merely tangentially related F1 news, Whistlepig have announced a partnership with Alfa Romero. They are releasing a single barrel select rye whiskey with a 100% rye mashbill, bottled at 96.77 proof (in honor of Bottas) and finished with oolong tea (in honor of Zhou). They have also released a video of the barrels being run through the team's Hinwil windtunnel......for some reason, followed by being subjected to g-force load tests, also for reasons. It is all then packaged in a bottle adorned with the team's logos and a faux carbon fiber label.

It's gimmicky as hell, but as a fan of high-proof, high rye content rye whiskey, and Formula 1, I signed up for a bottle. Not crazy about oolong, but it will make a nice addition to the collection if nothing else. Pre-sale is still ongoing if anyone is interested.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

In merely tangentially related F1 news, Whistlepig have announced a partnership with Alfa Romero. They are releasing a single barrel select rye whiskey with a 100% rye mashbill, bottled at 96.77 proof (in honor of Bottas) and finished with oolong tea (in honor of Zhou). They have also released a video of the barrels being run through the team's Hinwil windtunnel......for some reason, followed by being subjected to g-force load tests, also for reasons. It is all then packaged in a bottle adorned with the team's logos and a faux carbon fiber label.

It's gimmicky as hell, but as a fan of high-proof, high rye content rye whiskey, and Formula 1, I signed up for a bottle. Not crazy about oolong, but it will make a nice addition to the collection if nothing else. Pre-sale is still ongoing if anyone is interested.

Be sure to update us if it turned out to be any good. I remember a decade or so back there was a Williams F1 branded golf club (no idea if it was any good).

[Wallio]

Be sure to update us if it turned out to be any good. I remember a decade or so back there was a Williams F1 branded golf club (no idea if it was any good).

I imagine it will be decent at least. These Whistlepig "Legends" releases are mostly gimmick. They usually let someone "hand select" a few barrels of regular Whistlepig (which is good if you enjoy rye), but then they finish it with something wild. Being a Red Sox fan, I bought the Whistlepig "Big Papi" rye that was blended with his ground-up bats. That actually was pretty good.

Your mention of the Williams golf club reminds me of some of their crazier licensing deals. I had a wheel and pedals set up for my PS2 back in college that was a 1:1 replica of their 2003 or 2004 wheel (whichever one had those awful blue grips). It even popped off like a real wheel so you could display it. I think it's still in my parent's attic.....

Williams also had a deal at that same time with Norelco for an electric razor. I wasn't shaving my head back then though.

[IceG]

Stroll looked like he was going to crash for several corners before he actually did. I actually shouted at the TV "Don't crash now!" on the corner before he binned it.

Looks like he was desparately trying to get a good time in and over-driving the car as a result.

Earlier, Sky showed an interview with Stroll in which he seemed quite down almost as if he recognised that he does not have the consistency needed to be an F1 driver, nor the talent to contribute to Aston Martin's championship ambitions. His father must see this by now and will have to make a choice between the championship or his son.

So the big question is who will get the other seat at Aston Martin for 2024? Ricciardo may be at the end of his career (thanks Danica!) but a team up with the much older Alonso would be a hoot and the aging Ricciardo could take on the team leadership role when Alonso loses the edge (so circa 2028).

That Lawson lad seems to be the real deal though.

[Paul Hayes]

Well, a lot of people have been saying for much of the season what a great year we'd be having if only Red Bull weren't there. Let’s hope tomorrow now lives up to that! (Albeit you still wouldn't bet against Max coming through to win… would you…?)

[mario]

Well, a lot of people have been saying for much of the season what a great year we'd be having if only Red Bull weren't there. Let’s hope tomorrow now lives up to that! (Albeit you still wouldn't bet against Max coming through to win… would you…?)

That said, it does feel as if Tsunoda was getting properly shafted by Red Bull during qualifying.

One of the incidents that Verstappen was under investigation for was for impeding Tsunoda, with the stewards eventually giving Verstappen a reprimand and effectively blamed the team for "poor communications" with the driver. However, the stewards also noted "[...]that the representative of Car 22 chose not to attend the Hearing.".

The fact that Alpha Tauri did not attend the meeting has caused a bit of a stir, and has made many suspect that the parent team told Alpha Tauri that they were not to attend the stewards hearing to make it more likely that Max would avoid a grid penalty. I certainly can't think of any examples from recent times of the team that was inconvenienced choosing not to attend the stewards briefing and not submitting any evidence for their case.

[dinizintheoven]

Why do I get the horrible, horrible sinking feeling that all ten cars standing between Max and victory tomorrow will jump out the way in an "I can't possibly compete with Max in a Red Bull, I'll concentrate on my own race" sense, and he'll win by 30 seconds?

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Why do I get the horrible, horrible sinking feeling that all ten cars standing between Max and victory tomorrow will jump out the way in an "I can't possibly compete with Max in a Red Bull, I'll concentrate on my own race" sense, and he'll win by 30 seconds?

I don’t know, I think the top 4 on the grid are going to want it bad. In fact, them fighting really hard for it might slow them down and let Max catch up… so it might be moot either way.

[IceG]

Looks like Stroll will be watching from the pit wall.

Both he and the residual kit of parts to make an Aston Martin are best advised not to participate.

[mario]

Not sure if it should go here or into another thread, but it's now been confirmed that Piastri will be extending his contract with McLaren until 2026.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Not sure if it should go here or into another thread, but it's now been confirmed that Piastri will be extending his contract with McLaren until 2026.

At this point it seems like a mostly smart decision on both sides. The length of the contract could be a little problematic for Oscar if McLaren don't really come good fairly quickly though. I guess in that sense, McLaren got the better end of the deal (I wonder what he's getting paid).

[Rob Dylan]

Especially good for both sides considering the potential incoming interest from Ferrari or Red Bull or his services. Makes Piastri secure, and means that McLaren will get a hefty income for giving him away if they do decide to.

[mario]

More announcements this weekend, but this one might slightly disappoint some - Alpha Tauri will be sticking with a Ricciardo-Tsunoda line up, with Lawson being demoted back to reserve status. Considering his performances, you would have thought that the team might be looking at Lawson, but evidently Red Bull has other priorities.

[Har1MAS1415]

Max Verstappen could secure the title in the Sprint Race in Qatar.

Technically, this would mean he would equal Michael Schumacher's 2002 record of winning the title with 6 races to go.

He only needs to finish 6th or higher or, if he fails to score, have Perez finish 4th or lower.

At the rate he's going, I wouldn't have thought I would be jinxing him this time.

[Har1MAS1415]

In other news:

The FIA has rejected bids from all but Andretti Global with regards to potential new teams.

[mario]

In other news:

The FIA has rejected bids from all but Andretti Global with regards to potential new teams.

The entrants that have been turned down were apparently LKY SUNZ, Rodin Carlin and Hitech, and I'm not really surprised that they were all turned down.

There were suggestions that the LKY SUNZ entry were already laying off staff, suggesting they knew they weren't successful, and whilst they talked quite a bit about the financial side of their entry, they were rather more vague about their plans for their facilities and technical staff.

The Rodin Carlin entry sounds like it was rather optimistic - David Dicker was talking about wanting to not only set up his team in New Zealand, but was also talking about wanting to build his own power units as well.

As for Hitech, whilst the Kazakh mining tycoon Vladimir Kim has apparently bought 25% of the team, there have nevertheless been some questions about the links that Oliver Oakes and Hitech had with Dmitry Mazepin. Mazepin has, until recently, been an investor in the team, and whilst officially Oakes has parted ways with Dmitry, there have been questions whether he has completely severed ties.

That said, perhaps the more interesting situation is what has been left unsaid, which is that there has been no statement either way on the Andretti Group entry. For what it is worth, Joe Saward has been speculating that the reason for the delay is because the agreement that the Andretti Group had with Renault for an engine deal has now expired, and with the new management at Renault focussing inwards on changing the structure of the team, they aren't looking to renew the deal with Andretti.

I'm not entirely convinced that is the case, but it does seem that something is up given that the FIA are yet to say anything either way about Andretti.

[Har1MAS1415]

In other news:

The FIA has rejected bids from all but Andretti Global with regards to potential new teams.

The entrants that have been turned down were apparently LKY SUNZ, Rodin Carlin and Hitech, and I'm not really surprised that they were all turned down.

There were suggestions that the LKY SUNZ entry were already laying off staff, suggesting they knew they weren't successful, and whilst they talked quite a bit about the financial side of their entry, they were rather more vague about their plans for their facilities and technical staff.

The Rodin Carlin entry sounds like it was rather optimistic - David Dicker was talking about wanting to not only set up his team in New Zealand, but was also talking about wanting to build his own power units as well.

As for Hitech, whilst the Kazakh mining tycoon Vladimir Kim has apparently bought 25% of the team, there have nevertheless been some questions about the links that Oliver Oakes and Hitech had with Dmitry Mazepin. Mazepin has, until recently, been an investor in the team, and whilst officially Oakes has parted ways with Dmitry, there have been questions whether he has completely severed ties.

That said, perhaps the more interesting situation is what has been left unsaid, which is that there has been no statement either way on the Andretti Group entry. For what it is worth, Joe Saward has been speculating that the reason for the delay is because the agreement that the Andretti Group had with Renault for an engine deal has now expired, and with the new management at Renault focussing inwards on changing the structure of the team, they aren't looking to renew the deal with Andretti.

I'm not entirely convinced that is the case, but it does seem that something is up given that the FIA are yet to say anything either way about Andretti.

An 11th team in 2025 looking less likely?

[mario]

In other news:

The FIA has rejected bids from all but Andretti Global with regards to potential new teams.

The entrants that have been turned down were apparently LKY SUNZ, Rodin Carlin and Hitech, and I'm not really surprised that they were all turned down.

There were suggestions that the LKY SUNZ entry were already laying off staff, suggesting they knew they weren't successful, and whilst they talked quite a bit about the financial side of their entry, they were rather more vague about their plans for their facilities and technical staff.

The Rodin Carlin entry sounds like it was rather optimistic - David Dicker was talking about wanting to not only set up his team in New Zealand, but was also talking about wanting to build his own power units as well.

As for Hitech, whilst the Kazakh mining tycoon Vladimir Kim has apparently bought 25% of the team, there have nevertheless been some questions about the links that Oliver Oakes and Hitech had with Dmitry Mazepin. Mazepin has, until recently, been an investor in the team, and whilst officially Oakes has parted ways with Dmitry, there have been questions whether he has completely severed ties.

That said, perhaps the more interesting situation is what has been left unsaid, which is that there has been no statement either way on the Andretti Group entry. For what it is worth, Joe Saward has been speculating that the reason for the delay is because the agreement that the Andretti Group had with Renault for an engine deal has now expired, and with the new management at Renault focussing inwards on changing the structure of the team, they aren't looking to renew the deal with Andretti.

I'm not entirely convinced that is the case, but it does seem that something is up given that the FIA are yet to say anything either way about Andretti.

An 11th team in 2025 looking less likely?

Maybe not just 2025 - it's increasingly looking like an 11th team is unlikely for any foreseeable future date.

With the current commercial arrangements expiring in 2025, the FIA may be in a position where it has to wait until that agreement is signed before it can re-open the bidding process. From what we've heard from Liberty Media and the teams, it is probably likely that any future agreement will significantly raise the anti-dilution fee that new entrants must pay, which is going to price out significant numbers of possible entrants.

Now, it's likely that the option of reducing or waiving the fee would still be kept if the entrants were a manufacturer in their own right, or happened to be bringing a major manufacturer in as an engine supplier - however, I don't see that happening readily, particularly since those manufacturers that have shown interest so far are far more likely to partner an existing team (see Ford and Red Bull).

Equally, if a new entrant did want to partner with an existing engine supplier, it's not clear who might even want to sell them engines. Most of the existing suppliers don't seem to take on new customers, and the one that was - Renault - is now looking less certain amidst the change in leadership within the team.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Yeah, it's not looking good. I finally got around to reading Mark Hughes' analysis of it in September's Motor Sport and it was helpful in highlighting the difference in the alignment of interests between the FIA on one side and Liberty/the teams on the other. He hinted at the possibility of a team like Andretti being accepted by the FIA but not added to the concord agreement. What a cluster that would be.

On the other hand, can you imagine a team showing up, racing, but having to arrange all independent transport and getting no prize money because they're not in the concord agreement? Obviously it would never happen, because no team can survive without the commercial money. But if it could, there would be the possibility of a team winning the FIA F1 Championship and getting $0 in prize money from Liberty. The parties would certainly wrap up reject of the century for that one!

[Wallio]

While it will never ever ever happen, I would laugh so hard I would physically hurt myself if Andretti gets added to the Concorde, but failing to find an engine, Ford pressures Red Bull and snatches the GM team away.

[mario]

Yeah, it's not looking good. I finally got around to reading Mark Hughes' analysis of it in September's Motor Sport and it was helpful in highlighting the difference in the alignment of interests between the FIA on one side and Liberty/the teams on the other. He hinted at the possibility of a team like Andretti being accepted by the FIA but not added to the concord agreement. What a cluster that would be.

On the other hand, can you imagine a team showing up, racing, but having to arrange all independent transport and getting no prize money because they're not in the concord agreement? Obviously it would never happen, because no team can survive without the commercial money. But if it could, there would be the possibility of a team winning the FIA F1 Championship and getting $0 in prize money from Liberty. The parties would certainly wrap up reject of the century for that one!

Well, it seems that the Rodin - the sponsor for the Carlin team - have now given some details about their bid to enter F1.

There are a few details that are a little interesting - whilst the team did refer to having some in-house engine manufacturing capabilities, it seems that the talk of building their own engine was a little wide of the mark. They refer to having 'opportunities of discussions for a Ferrari collaboration" - which suggests there may have been some speculative talks with them, but perhaps nothing particularly concrete (and might be part of the reason why the bid did not succeed). https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/rodin ... /10526308/ and https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/rodi ... -andretti/

The bit that is gaining more attention right now is the reference to having promised the FIA to reserve one seat for a female driver, with Chadwick being explicitly referred to in the statements by Rodin. That is perhaps not surprising as a measure to draw attention to themselves and to the failure of their bid, although The Race does question how realistic that promise was given that there are currently no female drivers with a full superlicence right now.

The statement by Rodin does also seem to have a bit of a jab at Andretti, commenting that “Recent information suggests, as anticipated from the outset of this process, that the only successful applicant will be Andretti Global.”. Some of the more hyperbolic sites have speculated that this was their way of leaking the news that Andretti would be approved, though the way it's phrased seems to suggest a bit of a feedback loop - writers speculating that Andretti would be given approval, Rodin then referencing those speculative reports and then those same speculative writers using that to claim that they were right in the first place.

It's at least interesting to note that the team does seem to have had enough substance for it's bid to have been considered somewhat substantial, but the lack of any firm commitments on the engine side probably did not help. Furthermore, even with investment from Rodin, you do have to wonder if Carlin could really have taken the step up, particularly since the team was going to be based in New Zealand - probably about as far as you can get from most of the major suppliers, academic institutions and testing facilities in the world of motorsport.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

you do have to wonder if Carlin could really have taken the step up, particularly since the team was going to be based in New Zealand - probably about as far as you can get from most of the major suppliers, academic institutions and testing facilities in the world of motorsport.

We have talked about this here and there in the past. I honestly don't see how any racing organization could ever possibly afford the costs to join at this point. I may be wrong, but I assume Andretti is much larger than Carlin and it's hard to conceive of them being able to put up the money to buy in and survive. We've deduced that the all-in price for a new team is basically a minimum of $600 million (probably more) including buy-in, operating budget and facilities/equipment and then $150 million a year after that. Instead, in the article I mentioned the teams and Liberty are saying "just buy a team if you want in". In that context, team values are speculated at approaching $1 billion. It's getting crazy. Maybe Andretti could buy Haas for a cut-rate $750 million at this point plus needing to put together their first year's budget. Maybe timing could take some of the edge off with the commercial payments and prize money, but it doesn't cover the whole of a reasonable budget.

Before the current era, what was the last "real" price paid for an existing team? Racing Point buying Force India out of receivership? How much was that? For a more successful team, probably Mercedes GP buying Brawn. How much was that?

That said, while I want there to be the opportunity of new entities entering the sport, I can live with just adding Audi and maybe Haas finally selling up.

[Rob Dylan]

Before the current era, what was the last "real" price paid for an existing team? Racing Point buying Force India out of receivership? How much was that? For a more successful team, probably Mercedes GP buying Brawn. How much was that?

Brawn bought the Honda team for a tidy £1, didn't he? According to the Bank of England's inflation calculator, that means an average factory team would now cost £1.52 to buy. Happy to help.

[mario]

We have talked about this here and there in the past. I honestly don't see how any racing organization could ever possibly afford the costs to join at this point.

The main incentive of the fee is to screen out privateer entrants - a major automotive manufacturer could afford that sort of fee, but they are also the sort of companies that would probably be given a waiver from Liberty Media for paying the fee on the grounds that they "increase the prestige" - and thus monetary value - of the sport and the teams by more than the drop in revenue from them joining.

Before the current era, what was the last "real" price paid for an existing team? Racing Point buying Force India out of receivership? How much was that? For a more successful team, probably Mercedes GP buying Brawn. How much was that?

Brawn bought the Honda team for a tidy £1, didn't he? According to the Bank of England's inflation calculator, that means an average factory team would now cost £1.52 to buy. Happy to help.

That's the thing - as quite a few of the more recent sales of teams occurred when the team was in a difficult financial situation, the sale price was sometimes just for a nominal sum (hence why Brawn was able to acquire the team from Honda for £1).

That said, Row Man Gross-Gene strictly asked what it cost Mercedes to buy Brawn GP, rather than what it cost Brawn to buy the team from Honda. That deal is quoted as having cost Mercedes a total of £137.3 million, or about $175.7 million, in total. https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2020 ... s-f1-team/

With Laurence Stroll, his consortium paid £90 million to the administrators, although the exact structure of the deal was a bit more complex than a straight buy out. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-moto ... KKCN1ME1LV

You could also look back a bit further to the deal between BMW and Sauber - BMW bought a controlling stake of the team through buying out Credit Suisse (who appear to have owned around 60% of the team), along with part of Peter Sauber's stake (around 40%).

That deal apparently left Peter Sauber with around 20% of the team and BMW with the remaining 80%. It seems BMW did not publicly acknowledge how much it cost them, but a figure of $100 million was mentioned in contemporary reports at the time. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2005/ ... laone20051

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Thanks gents!

So in the last 10-20 years, the price for a functioning team (minus Honda's nominal price) has gone from about $100± million to approaching $1 billion. That is pretty astonishing. I'll bet that the 2010 new teams' owners wish they'd held on. Now those entries would be worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

[mario]

Thanks gents!

So in the last 10-20 years, the price for a functioning team (minus Honda's nominal price) has gone from about $100± million to approaching $1 billion. That is pretty astonishing. I'll bet that the 2010 new teams' owners wish they'd held on. Now those entries would be worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Inflation adjusted, the price for the Honda team would be closer to $250 million today.

That said, whilst the modern structure - with the cost caps and franchising system - having heavily inflated the valuations of the teams, I feel the valuations are fairly heavily inflated (and that perhaps there has been a lack of critical discussion in the motorsport press questioning if the sport is perhaps experiencing a bit of an asset bubble).

Right now, one of the things driving up the valuation of the teams seems to be the promise of untapped riches from expansion in the USA and talks of growing viewing figures across the world.

However, the cumulative global viewing figures for 2022 showed no growth compared to 2021, and the data coming in from the USA suggests there has actually been a small dip in viewing figures in the USA over the course of 2023.

In the past, the Motorsport Broadcasting blog also pointed out that, in recent years, the use of cumulative viewing figures for the season by Liberty Media has slightly distorted things - the number of viewers per race has actually declined in recent years, but because the season is now so much longer, reporting the cumulative figures has hidden the drop in viewers per race.

Furthermore, there have been some noting that there has been a bit of a souring of sentiment in the USA and some push back against the ticket prices for races there (especially with inflation and a more uncertain economic outlook weighing on people's disposable income).

There does seem to still be an aggressive sales push by many to claim that there is still lots of growth potential and that there is so much more to come. However, I wonder if the current valuations really can be sustained for the long term, or if they will start to fall if the expansion of the sport into the USA starts running out of steam sooner than expected.

[IceG]

What is the point of another team? To improve the show? To increase the revenue for F1? To give long term stability of a team goes under?

Allowing teams to run a third race car, but then making the team select which two cars will count for the WDC and/or WCC before the race start, might be a solution. More cars on the grid. More seats for good drivers. Nice simple 1-10 results sheet for the stats and fans.

This is not a well thought out idea and there would have to be something about budgets but it avoids the whole problem about a "new" team with all the shennigans which we know that will cause.

Please shoot me down in flames

[Spectoremg]

IceG I agree. Pointless if they're not going to take it seriously. We've already got 2 or 3 deadbeat teams.

[mario]

What is the point of another team? To improve the show? To increase the revenue for F1? To give long term stability of a team goes under?

Allowing teams to run a third race car, but then making the team select which two cars will count for the WDC and/or WCC before the race start, might be a solution. More cars on the grid. More seats for good drivers. Nice simple 1-10 results sheet for the stats and fans.

This is not a well thought out idea and there would have to be something about budgets but it avoids the whole problem about a "new" team with all the shennigans which we know that will cause.

Please shoot me down in flames

Well, it would seem that the FIA has evidently decided that it wants more teams in the sport, with the FIA announcing that it has given it's approval to the Andretti's to enter F1. https://www.fia.com/news/fia-approves-a ... s-analysis

As an aside, is it just me, or does it come across as a bit of muscle flexing by the FIA, or rather by Sulayem specifically, given the rather self-congratulatory tone of the announcement, as well as the fact that a fairly sizeable chunk of the press release has been given over to his own personal comments? Maybe it's just me, but it does seem notable that he was quick to boast of Porsche's interest in the 2026 engine regulations, but rather quiet about the fact that the Porsche engine project is completely dead.

Furthermore, whilst the announcement is long on the self-congratulatory part, one thing that is rather noticeably absent is any mention of a timeframe. Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit odd that there is no mention at all of a proposed entry date?

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

First off, Andretti's been approved by the FIA.

What is the point of another team? To improve the show? To increase the revenue for F1? To give long term stability of a team goes under?

This is an easy one, to make F1 more fun and interesting to watch for us, the fans.

Allowing teams to run a third race car, but then making the team select which two cars will count for the WDC and/or WCC before the race start, might be a solution. More cars on the grid. More seats for good drivers. Nice simple 1-10 results sheet for the stats and fans.

Third cars are okay, but I think I'd take one new team over third cars. Third cars would possibly end up making up a third or more of the top ten and full teams would be competing for nothing but money (i.e. not for points). The designating of cars would make a mess of the world championship. You mention designating the driver who counts before the race, but what would really happen is probably designating the drivers before the season. Only place where it would be intriguing for me is with Aston Martin, because they could keep Lance in F1 but designate him as not counting.

This is not a well thought out idea and there would have to be something about budgets but it avoids the whole problem about a "new" team with all the shennigans which we know that will cause.

I think budgeting and getting agreement on what a third car should cost would be very difficult to establish because the third car gives them 33% more data which would be difficult to designate a cost value for to make up to the other teams. I think it would be less cool and more difficult to come to agreement on than a new team.

Anyway, back to Andretti's approval, It still seems super unlikely they'll end up on the grid, but they've passed that hurdle. Who was the F1 driver who won a court case but still didn't end up on the grid? It's kind of like that. Given the state of things, I'm still puzzled that Gene Haas hasn't been begging Andretti to take the team off his hands. In which case all this new team talk would be moot.

(On a side note, the buy-in fee that was first quoted at $200 million and will likely go much higher... Why didn't the teams just quote a Bazillion Gajillion instead to begin with?)