The 2012 IndyCar Series thread

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 25 Dec 2011, 11:56

Forgive me for my ignorance yet again but why did Roger sell up basically all his tracks over the years?

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 25 Dec 2011, 12:52

Wizzie wrote:Forgive me for my ignorance yet again but why did Roger sell up basically all his tracks over the years?

Of all of CART’s movers and shakers, Penske was the first to move to capitalize on the unavoidable threat that the Hulman-George family posed to the sport. The same year that the Indy Racing League took to the track for the first time at Walt Disney World Speedway (an IMS-owned track), Penske formed an alliance with NASCAR’s France family; selling their International Speedway Corporation a 12% stake in his motorsports holding company, Penske Motorsports, Inc. In 1999, he completed his “merger” with ISC; selling them the rest of his PMI holdings (including race tracks and Goodyear racing tire franchises). In the interim, meaning 1997-1998, Penske entered into several joint ventures with the Frances (e.g. ownership of the Homestead-Miami speedway and a large stake in the Grand Prix Association of Long Beach) and he was instrumental in taking CART public and converting his Champ Car holdings into CART shares.

In 1999, as mentioned, he merged with ISC; becoming its single largest shareholder outside the France family group, with a seat for himself and two others on the ISC board of directors. Almost simultaneously, Penske divested himself of all his CART shares so the reality was that he had a large vested interest in NASCAR affairs but was financially uninvolved with either American open-wheel series (except for his team’s sponsorship; which as we saw went with him wherever he chose to go).

Until he could begin to divest himself of his ISC shareholdings – which required a mandatory waiting period – a considerable part of Penske’s fortune was intimately tied to the fortunes of NASCAR. Historically, the six tracks Penske sold the Frances -- California Speedway (now Auto Club Speedway); Michigan Speedway; North Carolina Speedway (Rockingham); Homestead-Miami Speedway; Pikes Peak International Raceway; and Nazareth Speedway – increasingly underperformed the period when Penske held title to them. In large measure this was because open-wheel races had provided the vital first or second races that the tracks needed for maximum profitability and the war in AOWR was already negatively impacting the popularity and profitability of such races.

The Frances, of course, had other reasons (than profitability) for buying Penske’s tracks; their possession gave them undisputed control of NASCAR. However, the declining profitability of Penske’s former tracks was not welcome (to the Frances) and it could have a profound impact on the sale price of Penske’s ISC shares when the time came that he could sell them. It was obviously in both the Frances and Penske’s self-interest to bring about an end to the war in AOWR so profitable races could return to their tracks. Consequently, Bill France Jr. approached Tony George circa 1999 with promises of his support if George would end the war; and Tony refused. Penske made several surreptitious attempts of his own to broker peace; but George rebuffed them all.

It is my belief that Penske needed to bring an end to the war in AOWR in order to safeguard and increase his ISC/NASCAR holdings and that CART presented the most vulnerable target of the two warring series to him. Penske was intimately knowledgeable about CART’s finances and he knew that a public company was more vulnerable to hostile outside assault than a well-financed privately-held one (see his own corporate structures for examples), so CART was the obvious choice. Additionally, Roger didn’t have similar financial information about Hulman & Co. and had no way to gauge their capability to continue to wage war. Also, Penske had had at least five years to study Tony George and the Hulmans up close and it is more than likely that he had judged them to be insane from a practical financial standpoint.

Consequently, I tend to take Penske at his word and assume that he intended to desert CART at the end of the 2000 season. That would put him right in line to be one of the masterminds of the unprecedented series of “accidents” and the outright sabotage that befell the Champ car series throughout 2001; including what I believe to be an orchestrated press attack on the sport throughout the year from media closely associated with NASCAR. By February 2002, CART was on verge of collapse and only the unexpected combative nature of its new CEO, Chris Pook, and Ford’s 11th-hour decision to make the series its captive motor sport saved it until its 2004 bankruptcy.

Penske was greeted in the IRL with open arms by its Japanese manufacturers but not by its series leadership. He quickly found himself in the almost unheard of position of being Toyota’s official engine rebuilder while simultaneously being the supplier of Honda’s engine (both via Ilmor). By then, Penske had almost no financial exposure to the vagaries of Tony George and his minions and he had the muscle of both Toyota and Honda to protect him and project his influence.

With the coming of Penske to the IRL, his partners in NASCAR quickly moved to dominate the sport; easily muscling Bruton Smith and the other members of the speedway cartel aside to control at one point as much as 60% of the IRL’s venues. However, it became quickly apparent that the fans of AOWR were neither as practical nor cold-blooded as Penske and in the final analysis Tony George’s butchered version of the sport drove away more fans than it attracted; and the League failed to provide Penske and the Frances with the profitable other races that they required. Fortunately for Penske, the demise of CART coincided (or precipitated) a surge in NASCAR’s popularity and Penske was able to sell his ISC shares at top dollar and perpetuate his legend as the schemer who always has a chair when the music stops.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 Dec 2011, 12:20

The Glen could return.

There is a god.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 03 Jan 2012, 00:52

so is the race in Texas two 275s or one long 550?
also, does anyone know if more teams have signed with Lotus?

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 03 Jan 2012, 02:45

nome66 wrote:so is the race in Texas two 275s or one long 550?
also, does anyone know if more teams have signed with Lotus?

Two 275s.

No other teams have signed with Lotus yet, but I would expect most of the reject teams to sign with them, excluding Dale Coyne, who has been in talks with all three marques. To be honest, I'll be really really happy if Dale Coyne gets a Chevy or a Honda, because that means that his team has a better chance of running up front.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 03 Jan 2012, 20:03

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... -director/

Beaux Barfield in as race director.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 05 Jan 2012, 13:11

Scratch what I said about Texas being twin races, that's not happening, it's one long race.

Hearing Katherine Legge will be back in the IRL. Not sure with who though...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 05 Jan 2012, 17:51

Cynon wrote:
Hearing Katherine Legge will be back in the IRL. Not sure with who though...

Here's hoping!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Jan 2012, 18:28

dr-baker wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Hearing Katherine Legge will be back in the IRL. Not sure with who though...

Here's hoping!

Where? I can see no Ho-Pin on the grid...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 05 Jan 2012, 18:55

DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Hearing Katherine Legge will be back in the IRL. Not sure with who though...

Here's hoping!

Where? I can see no Ho-Pin on the grid...

(although he did cross my mind as I was typing that sentence...)

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 05 Jan 2012, 22:11

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Here's hoping!

Where? I can see no Ho-Pin on the grid...

(although he did cross my mind as I was typing that sentence...)

Chinese Indy 500 Idol

deCrasheris · Post by **deCrasheris** » 06 Jan 2012, 01:37

Justin Wilson and Dale Coyne are going to reunite this season.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... -to-coyne/

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 06 Jan 2012, 01:49

deCrasheris wrote:Justin Wilson and Dale Coyne are going to reunite this season.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... -to-coyne/

They're also getting Honda power this year according to the article so they'll be one to watch.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 10 Jan 2012, 10:33

The Mayor of Hinchtown gets Wheldon's Andretti drive.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 11 Jan 2012, 01:13

I didn't expect that

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 11 Jan 2012, 15:21

eurobrun wrote:I didn't expect that

I did. Hinchcliffe is the perfect fit for the very image-conscious GoDaddy sponsorship. There had been rumors of Hinch going to the drive in November I believe.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 12 Jan 2012, 18:40

Bourdais is back, driving for Dragon Racing, and his teammate is she of the I-Use-Good-Grammar-On-Twitter fame, Katherine Legge. Lotus engines, no car numbers confirmed (guessing #8 and #20).

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Jan 2012, 20:57

Can we change the title of this thread and remove the 2011 part please? It seems clear that we will be continuing well into 2012 with this...

And Katherine Legge's grammer on Twitter really is better than most people's? I personally hate decoding text language so I always try to spell and punctuate properly regardless of message medium... Good for her. 8-)

Post by **Londoner** » 12 Jan 2012, 21:11

dr-baker wrote:Can we change the title of this thread and remove the 2011 part please? It seems clear that we will be continuing well into 2012 with this...

And Katherine Legge's grammer on Twitter really is better than most people's? I personally hate decoding text language so I always try to spell and punctuate properly regardless of message medium... Good for her.

It's definitely better than yours

Say it with me, grammar, grammar grammar...

I never use text language or what I term as 'street language'. Occasionally, I'll post ingeniously worded statuses on Facebook with proper grammar/punctuation, just to relieve my news feed slightly of incomprehensible language...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Jan 2012, 21:39

East Londoner wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Can we change the title of this thread and remove the 2011 part please? It seems clear that we will be continuing well into 2012 with this...

And Katherine Legge's grammer on Twitter really is better than most people's? I personally hate decoding text language so I always try to spell and punctuate properly regardless of message medium... Good for her.

It's definitely better than yours Say it with me, grammar, grammar grammar...

I never use text language or what I term as 'street language'. Occasionally, I'll post ingeniously worded statuses on Facebook with proper grammar/punctuation, just to relieve my news feed slightly of incomprehensible language...

Buggar!!!

I often make that particular mistake and don't like doing it. I also get a bit muddled with -ant and -ent British word endings. But I'll get there! Who would have thought that I had a language degree eh?

deCrasheris · Post by **deCrasheris** » 13 Jan 2012, 00:27

Cynon wrote:Bourdais is back, driving for Dragon Racing, and his teammate is she of the I-Use-Good-Grammar-On-Twitter fame, Katherine Legge. Lotus engines, no car numbers confirmed (guessing #8 and #20).

The number 20 is being used by Ed Carpenter's team next year so my best guess would be 6 for the second car.

And I'm wondering where this leads Drayer and Reinbold because they were rumored to have Legge for 2012. My best guess would be Servia from what I have seen on Speed.com is all but confirmed there and Ana Beatriz and her sponsorship $ coming back to D&R.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 13 Jan 2012, 01:06

sooooo......
http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izo ... velopment/

discuss

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 13 Jan 2012, 01:09

nome66 wrote:sooooo......
http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izo ... velopment/

discuss

They're still several months behind in the development race but at the very least we now know they have A race-worthy engine. Whether it'll be any good or not remains to be seen.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 14 Jan 2012, 14:36

i don't know, looks alright to me. beautiful infact. maybe even the most beautiful of the three factory test cars. certainly more beautiful the Bahar-Benetton we had this past season.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 14 Jan 2012, 15:03

nome66 wrote:i don't know, looks alright to me. beautiful infact. maybe even the most beautiful of the three factory test cars. certainly more beautiful the Bahar-Benetton we had this past season.

Absolutely. Even though aero kits haven't been introduced yet...

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 14 Jan 2012, 16:49

Is that a rear wing or a barn door?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 17 Jan 2012, 08:33

The new cars do look superb, although the 'barn door' comment is pretty accurate.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Jan 2012, 08:38

CoopsII wrote:
The new cars do look superb, although the 'barn door' comment is pretty accurate.

Barn door? That's more like the entire bloody farm :lol:

Post by **mario** » 17 Jan 2012, 09:41

Wizzie wrote:
CoopsII wrote:
The new cars do look superb, although the 'barn door' comment is pretty accurate.

Barn door? That's more like the entire bloody farm

When you hear about the problems that Dallara have had with the car it's not surprising that they've stuck such a large rear wing on the car. As things stand, the last reports indicated the weight distribution is terrible, with the rear weight bias around 59% (the current car has a 55% rear weight bias) which has resulted in severe handling problems as the rear end of the car is relatively unstable. [Incidentally, Dallara claims that the problem with the car is that the suppliers provided overweight components - although some contend that the chassis is probably a little overweight too - and is currently working pretty hard to find places to put ballast and adjust the weight bias, even though it means that the car will miss the target kerb weight.]
So, what you are seeing is probably an attempt by Dallara to stabilise the rear end by putting an oversized rear wing on the car, which is probably part of the reason why the top speed of the cars is lower than anticipated (with the suggestion that Dallara might push the rule makers to increase the engine power to compensate, although the engine manufacturers are not that happy with the idea because it'd mean that they'd have to pay for additional development to cover what they consider to be Dallara's mistake).

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 17 Jan 2012, 11:17

mario wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
Barn door? That's more like the entire bloody farm

When you hear about the problems that Dallara have had with the car it's not surprising that they've stuck such a large rear wing on the car. As things stand, the last reports indicated the weight distribution is terrible, with the rear weight bias around 59% (the current car has a 55% rear weight bias) which has resulted in severe handling problems as the rear end of the car is relatively unstable. [Incidentally, Dallara claims that the problem with the car is that the suppliers provided overweight components - although some contend that the chassis is probably a little overweight too - and is currently working pretty hard to find places to put ballast and adjust the weight bias, even though it means that the car will miss the target kerb weight.]
So, what you are seeing is probably an attempt by Dallara to stabilise the rear end by putting an oversized rear wing on the car, which is probably part of the reason why the top speed of the cars is lower than anticipated (with the suggestion that Dallara might push the rule makers to increase the engine power to compensate, although the engine manufacturers are not that happy with the idea because it'd mean that they'd have to pay for additional development to cover what they consider to be Dallara's mistake).

That is not really strange. We all know how Dallara fare against other constructors in a highly competitive and highly technical environment (Say hello, F110!). Sincerely, this is another shot in the foot both for Dallara and Indycar, which is a shame since it was a good opportunity for Indycar to reassert claims of being a credible alternative to F1...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Jan 2012, 11:29

mario wrote:So, what you are seeing is probably an attempt by Dallara to stabilise the rear end by putting an oversized rear wing on the car, which is probably part of the reason why the top speed of the cars is lower than anticipated (with the suggestion that Dallara might push the rule makers to increase the engine power to compensate, although the engine manufacturers are not that happy with the idea because it'd mean that they'd have to pay for additional development to cover what they consider to be Dallara's mistake).

I'ld be pretty cheesed off too if I had to pay for someone else's mistake.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 18 Jan 2012, 03:08

Holy crap the Lotus looks amazing. Somehow it looks better in an IndyCar than in an F1 car, strange...

I'd put it on my avatar but I refuse to replace Dan to my right -->

Post by **mario** » 18 Jan 2012, 10:33

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
Barn door? That's more like the entire bloody farm

When you hear about the problems that Dallara have had with the car it's not surprising that they've stuck such a large rear wing on the car. As things stand, the last reports indicated the weight distribution is terrible, with the rear weight bias around 59% (the current car has a 55% rear weight bias) which has resulted in severe handling problems as the rear end of the car is relatively unstable. [Incidentally, Dallara claims that the problem with the car is that the suppliers provided overweight components - although some contend that the chassis is probably a little overweight too - and is currently working pretty hard to find places to put ballast and adjust the weight bias, even though it means that the car will miss the target kerb weight.]
So, what you are seeing is probably an attempt by Dallara to stabilise the rear end by putting an oversized rear wing on the car, which is probably part of the reason why the top speed of the cars is lower than anticipated (with the suggestion that Dallara might push the rule makers to increase the engine power to compensate, although the engine manufacturers are not that happy with the idea because it'd mean that they'd have to pay for additional development to cover what they consider to be Dallara's mistake).

That is not really strange. We all know how Dallara fare against other constructors in a highly competitive and highly technical environment (Say hello, F110!). Sincerely, this is another shot in the foot both for Dallara and Indycar, which is a shame since it was a good opportunity for Indycar to reassert claims of being a credible alternative to F1...

It's a bit more subtle than that - Dallara have tended to do well where the formula doesn't require a considerable amount of underfloor flow analysis - they are still fairly strong in Formula 3, for example, where the aero rules are relatively simple (though from what I have heard Dallara isn't in quite as strong a position as once it was in Formula 3 and has lost a little bit of market share recently). As I understand it, this is the first time, certainly for a number of years, where Dallara have had to develop a car where ground effect plays such a large part in the overall performance of the car (and there are strong rumours that Dallara had been using the old Panoz DP01 as a benchmark for their car with Dallara going as far as acquiring a DP01 for on track testing alongside the DW01).

Furthermore, whilst it has to be said that development of the F110 did not take place under ideal conditions, it is true that there were complaints about the quality of work on the F110 (and not entirely positive reviews about the development versions of the DW01 either). Yes, it has to be said that some of their suppliers don't have stellar records either - the transmission is from Xtrac, for example, and we saw how discontented HRT and Caterham became with their transmission system - but Dallara probably has to take some of the blame here too.

Wizzie wrote:
mario wrote:So, what you are seeing is probably an attempt by Dallara to stabilise the rear end by putting an oversized rear wing on the car, which is probably part of the reason why the top speed of the cars is lower than anticipated (with the suggestion that Dallara might push the rule makers to increase the engine power to compensate, although the engine manufacturers are not that happy with the idea because it'd mean that they'd have to pay for additional development to cover what they consider to be Dallara's mistake).

I'ld be pretty cheesed off too if I had to pay for someone else's mistake.

Exactly - especially since the governing body is unlikely to raise the fees that the engine manufacturers can charge their clients, effectively forcing the engine manufacturers to absorb the cost of additional development if they go down that route. It might be OK for Honda, for example, but an independent like Judd will be especially annoyed...

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 18 Jan 2012, 11:23

The things I posted contained much of the information mario has supplied, but I'm not mario.

The Lotus DW12 doesn't look bad, in fact, I'm not entirely sure if it's me saying this, but it masks the pure ugliness of the chassis itself.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 19 Jan 2012, 10:52

With so many pieces of the Silly Season puzzle finally falling into place, who will it be to start the "The 'The 2012 IndyCar Series thread' thread" thread?

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 19 Jan 2012, 15:05

Whoever started this one could change the title in march

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 19 Jan 2012, 20:44

Looks like that's been taken care of now...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 19 Jan 2012, 20:55

So, now we should consider all that have been posted before (including the 2011 season) as a build up for the 2012 one? I think it would have been preferable to create a new thread. But that's just me.

Post by **mario** » 19 Jan 2012, 23:06

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:The things I posted contained much of the information mario has supplied, but I'm not mario.

The Lotus DW12 doesn't look bad, in fact, I'm not entirely sure if it's me saying this, but it masks the pure ugliness of the chassis itself.

If I've accidentally stolen your thunder, as it were, I'd like to apologise for that - it wasn't something that I intended on doing.

Incidentally, since you mention it, the black and gold livery has been done quite well, even if can only go so far in masking some of the more awkward looking parts of the design. I can only hope that Dallara can solve at least some of the problems with the car, though their actions haven't exactly been encouraging and there have been some concerns over what impact Dallara's other changes may have (such as how the crash protection systems will perform if they are required to dissipate more energy).

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 19 Jan 2012, 23:07

Why so if this thread can do the job? This way we don't clutter the forum up too much.