Mark Webber's start stats

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 17 Mar 2013, 13:11

Since it is once again a hot topic, I decided to look closer on Mark's starts in F1.
From that epic first race for Minardi, where he held Mika behind him, up to and including todays race.

From the start to Lap 1

Gained positions /// Lost positions /// Held positions

Red Bull:

Gained = 27
Lost = 44
Held = 38

Williams:

Gained = 14
Lost = 14
Held = 5

Jaguar:

Gained = 12
Lost = 13
Held = 8

Minardi:

Gained = 12
Lost = 0
Held = 4

Total:

Gained = 65
Lost = 71
Held = 55

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 17 Mar 2013, 15:37

So it seems to be a particular problem at Red Bull? Although the nearer the front you qualify, the easier it is to lose positions than gain at the start. You're never going to gain positions if you're on pole. But still, he's not been on pole often so this is a bit damning...

rachel1990 · Post by **rachel1990** » 17 Mar 2013, 15:47

I doubt the Mirnadi stats really counts because-

A. that 2002 car was one of the worst ever and he could hardly go forwards (baring a great drive in Australia)
and B - Alex Yoong was really the only car behind Mark and 3 DNQ's and a reject profile doesn't say much about his talent

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 18 Mar 2013, 01:44

rachel1990 wrote:I doubt the Mirnadi stats really counts because-

A. that 2002 car was one of the worse ever and he could hardly go forwards (baring a great drive in Australia)
and B - Alex Yoong was really the only car behind Mark and 3 DNQ's and a reject profile doesn't say much/

It's B that is the most damning as Yoong was no threat to pass anyone. He often only got into the top ten on his rare run beyond mid-pack by attrition.

Webberfan430 · Post by **Webberfan430** » 19 Mar 2013, 09:23

OP would you happen to have Webber's starting stats on a season by season basis?

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 19 Mar 2013, 17:28

As a rabid RBR fan, this infuriates me. Me and a few buddies got together for the race and had an over/under on how many positions Webber would lose. It started as a joke, but since we set it at 4, the joke was on us. Hell the NBCSN guys were like "watch Webber, he's awful at starts". How bad do you have to be for announcers to call you out?

Didn't Zanardi switch to a foot clutch at Williams? Maybe Mark should try that, he can't look any worse, not after blaming the ECU for his problems....

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 19 Mar 2013, 20:46

I had forgotten about Webbers williams years.... :shock:

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 20 Mar 2013, 10:21

Perhaps you should investigate how many times Mark's car has developed a mysterious glitch when it looked he might have half a chance of beating Seb into the first corner.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 20 Mar 2013, 10:37

Ross Prawn wrote:Perhaps you should investigate how many times Mark's car has developed a mysterious glitch when it looked he might have half a chance of beating Seb into the first corner.

Given that Webber has been through several cars a techs and still doesn't start properly, I am beginning to think that the mysterious glitch is in his head. I reckon though that this suits RBR and as such they didn't make a proper effort at solving it.

Post by **mario** » 20 Mar 2013, 11:00

DanielPT wrote:
Ross Prawn wrote:Perhaps you should investigate how many times Mark's car has developed a mysterious glitch when it looked he might have half a chance of beating Seb into the first corner.

Given that Webber has been through several cars a techs and still doesn't start properly, I am beginning to think that the mysterious glitch is in his head. I reckon though that this suits RBR and as such they didn't make a proper effort at solving it.

In the case of what happened in Melbourne, at least that is partially offset by the fact that McLaren Electronic Systems have issued a public apology for the problems that Red Bull and Webber suffered from in the last race and the disruptions that he suffered as a result of that. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21853491

Still, you do have to wonder why Webber has suffered for so long from poor starts, although at the same time it would make sense to compare him with both Vettel (although Vettel's unusually high number of pole positions will inevitably skew the data in his case) and against the other Renault powered teams too, because it may be that the problem is in part due to the performance of the Renault engine at lower rpm (although Vettel has generally been better at the start, he has had a few weak starts too). Were the Lotus drivers, for example, equally badly affected last year?

As you say, though, that can only go so far in explaining things and there has to be something in the way that Webber approaches the start procedure that causes problems (such as occasionally triggering the anti-stall system by accident when trying to get off the line by letting the revs dip too low). It cannot suit RBR to see their driver going backwards off the line that much when the WCC is at stake, particularly now that Massa is starting off the season on a much stronger footing and Ferrari seem to be competitive right from the start, so you must imagine that they would want to help Mark overcome his problems.

Even though their pre-season testing wasn't especially helpful in that regard, they should have several years worth of data on Webber's actions at the start to analyse - perhaps they have tried to help Mark out, but there is still something in his starting procedure that is so ingrained in his preparations that he cannot overcome?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 20 Mar 2013, 11:10

mario wrote:As you say, though, that can only go so far in explaining things and there has to be something in the way that Webber approaches the start procedure that causes problems (such as occasionally triggering the anti-stall system by accident when trying to get off the line by letting the revs dip too low). It cannot suit RBR to see their driver going backwards off the line that much when the WCC is at stake, particularly now that Massa is starting off the season on a much stronger footing and Ferrari seem to be competitive right from the start, so you must imagine that they would want to help Mark overcome his problems.

Even though their pre-season testing wasn't especially helpful in that regard, they should have several years worth of data on Webber's actions at the start to analyse - perhaps they have tried to help Mark out, but there is still something in his starting procedure that is so ingrained in his preparations that he cannot overcome?

That is what baffles me. How can a team not find important to practice starts to exhaustion in testing when it is clearly one of their drivers weakness? One that causes him to lose truckloads of points? I know RBR didn't really bothered to practise enough pre-season and just got on with their sandbagging program which hopefully have backfired on them. I also know that the WCC is at stake and that it is not fantastic for a team having this happening but it is not clearly car related, like Mercedes and extreme tyre wear, as with them it is only one driver that is mainly affected. I am also yet to see a reasonable explanation for why it is Webber who gets the lion's share of KERS trouble that RBR has. I don't believe it is just all down to luck...

Post by **mario** » 20 Mar 2013, 12:41

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:As you say, though, that can only go so far in explaining things and there has to be something in the way that Webber approaches the start procedure that causes problems (such as occasionally triggering the anti-stall system by accident when trying to get off the line by letting the revs dip too low). It cannot suit RBR to see their driver going backwards off the line that much when the WCC is at stake, particularly now that Massa is starting off the season on a much stronger footing and Ferrari seem to be competitive right from the start, so you must imagine that they would want to help Mark overcome his problems.

Even though their pre-season testing wasn't especially helpful in that regard, they should have several years worth of data on Webber's actions at the start to analyse - perhaps they have tried to help Mark out, but there is still something in his starting procedure that is so ingrained in his preparations that he cannot overcome?

That is what baffles me. How can a team not find important to practice starts to exhaustion in testing when it is clearly one of their drivers weakness? One that causes him to lose truckloads of points? I know RBR didn't really bothered to practise enough pre-season and just got on with their sandbagging program which hopefully have backfired on them. I also know that the WCC is at stake and that it is not fantastic for a team having this happening but it is not clearly car related, like Mercedes and extreme tyre wear, as with them it is only one driver that is mainly affected. I am also yet to see a reasonable explanation for why it is Webber who gets the lion's share of KERS trouble that RBR has. I don't believe it is just all down to luck...

I can only assume that Red Bull have decided that Webber's problems are somehow systematic and that practise would still fail to resolve all of his problems (with nearly 200 starts to his name, 109 of which have been at Red Bull, the problem has been well established long before Vettel showed up in F1 and yet seemingly still cannot be remedied). I'll have to ponder on this for some time, since overall there are some aspects that are hard to fathom.

As for the question of KERS, whilst it is true that Webber has had a fairly high number of KERS problems throughout the past couple of years, I guess that it is a little difficult to tell whether Webber's problems are purely bad luck or not because the team have only used KERS for two years, thus the sample group is fairly small. I suppose it could be argued that, in some ways, the question is more likely to be why the Red Bull KERS unit is so unreliable in general - Caterham also use the same KERS unit as Red Bull, and Pic has also said that his KERS unit failed in the latter stages of the race.

Perhaps Mark is simply unlucky that his problems have tended to occur in the races themselves whilst Vettel's have occurred in practise, where they are less likely to be reported? I am fairly sure that Vettel has had a few battery changes between qualifying and the race in the past few years, although since that normally comes in the FIA's post qualifying reports on parc ferme maintenance, it is possible that they have tended to be overlooked by the media (especially since the technical reports no longer seem to be published for the public, as was the case in previous years).

Webberfan430 · Post by **Webberfan430** » 20 Mar 2013, 21:56

Webberfan430 wrote:OP would you happen to have Webber's starting stats on a season by season basis?

Any reply on this Jocke? (OP)

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 20 Mar 2013, 22:33

Webberfan430 wrote:
Webberfan430 wrote:OP would you happen to have Webber's starting stats on a season by season basis?

Any reply on this Jocke? (OP)

Forgive our rudeness, welcome to the forums. I don't have the answer to you question, I just didn't want to leave you ignored.

Webberfan430 · Post by **Webberfan430** » 20 Mar 2013, 23:15

Webberfan430 wrote:Forgive our rudeness, welcome to the forums. I don't have the answer to you question, I just didn't want to leave you ignored.

ha, no probs bro, I didn't expect anyone to have the answer apart from maybe the OP. It would be interesting to know where he got his stats and I could maybe work out a year by year basis myself. I was interested because obviously it's a different car year on year.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 21 Mar 2013, 10:13

Webberfan430 wrote:
Webberfan430 wrote:Forgive our rudeness, welcome to the forums. I don't have the answer to you question, I just didn't want to leave you ignored.

ha, no probs bro, I didn't expect anyone to have the answer apart from maybe the OP. It would be interesting to know where he got his stats and I could maybe work out a year by year basis myself. I was interested because obviously it's a different car year on year.

He probably snatched them at statsF1.com.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 21 Mar 2013, 20:30

Webberfan430 wrote:
Webberfan430 wrote:OP would you happen to have Webber's starting stats on a season by season basis?

Any reply on this Jocke? (OP)

Sure, I can put it up in a day or so...

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 22 Mar 2013, 06:23

When he blew the start at Sepang in 2004, I remember thinking it was a case of tragically bad luck. Who would have thought it would turn out to be a career long problem?

Here's a question I've had for a while: Why doesn't he just go in the opposite direction and just spin the tires? Does he stand a lot more to lose by taking an aggresive approach?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 22 Mar 2013, 06:27

F1000X wrote:When he blew the start at Sepang in 2004, I remember thinking it was a case of tragically bad luck. Who would have thought it would turn out to be a career long problem?

Here's a question I've had for a while: Why doesn't he just go in the opposite direction and just spin the tires? Does he stand a lot more to lose by taking an aggresive approach?

It'll end up having basically the same effect as the wheels will simply be slipping on the ground while not taking him anywhere in a hurry. It'll be dramatic to watch, but ultimately just as pointless. Plus it does the rear tyres no favours at all.

Webberfan430 · Post by **Webberfan430** » 22 Mar 2013, 09:26

Jocke1 wrote:
Webberfan430 wrote:
Webberfan430 wrote:OP would you happen to have Webber's starting stats on a season by season basis?

Any reply on this Jocke? (OP)

Sure, I can put it up in a day or so...

thanks man, will keep an eye out for them

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 22 Mar 2013, 18:29

F1000X wrote:When he blew the start at Sepang in 2004, I remember thinking it was a case of tragically bad luck. Who would have thought it would turn out to be a career long problem?

Here's a question I've had for a while: Why doesn't he just go in the opposite direction and just spin the tires? Does he stand a lot more to lose by taking an aggresive approach?

From what I can remember, Webber qualified well twice in '04, and both times fluffed up his starts. I reckon its more the pressure, given thats he spent the first 7 years of his career in midfield cars, hence the extra pressure when he does qualify well

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 23 Mar 2013, 08:45

Webberfan430 wrote:OP would you happen to have Webber's starting stats on a season by season basis?

2013
1 lost
--------------------
2012
6 gained
8 lost
6 held
-------------------
2011
2 gained
11 lost
6 held
------------------
2010
3 gained
9 lost
7 held
-----------------
2009
4 gained
3 lost
9 held
----------------
2008
5 gained
8 lost
4 held
---------------
2007
7 gained
4 lost
6 held
---------------
2006
10 gained
4 lost
2 held
---------------
2005
4 gained
10 lost
3 held
---------------
2004
8 gained
7 lost
2 held
--------------
2003
4 gained
6 lost
6 held
--------------
2002
12 gained
0 lost
4 held

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 23 Mar 2013, 09:17

To clarify what this statistic actually shows here, it is whether or not MW gained or lost at least one position from his original starting point from the start to the end of the first lap, or held onto his starting position.

It should not be interpreted as actual number of positions gained or lost (overtakes), as I'm sure Webber has overtook more than 27 cars in his Red Bull career.
It might not have been made obvious in the original post.

Webberfan430 · Post by **Webberfan430** » 23 Mar 2013, 10:08

Thanks Jocke. I note in 2009, Webber held/lost 13-3 in an RBR, there didn't seem to be much wrong with his starts in that year. Similarly, in 2006 and 2007, they were 12-4 and 13-4 respectively. Since then things have rather gone backwards (literally).

It's also hard to assess how good or bad his starts are without comparison to another driver. How do his stats compare with an elite f1 driver such as say Fernando Alonso during those years?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 25 Mar 2013, 09:46

Here follows a post not about Webbers starts but about a possible stop. Alot of the reports are zeroing in on comments Mark made about switching his phone off, doing a bit of surfing (Aussie stereotype? Check) and considering his future with Red Bull.

It seems unlikely that he'll actually bail but not impossible, what does everybody else think?

Webber! Y U No Join Ferrari when you had the chance?!

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 25 Mar 2013, 14:24

CoopsII wrote:Webber! Y U No Join Ferrari when you had the chance?!

Go from being a number two driver at Red Bull to a number two driver at Ferrari! Great idea!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 25 Mar 2013, 14:47

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Webber! Y U No Join Ferrari when you had the chance?!

Go from being a number two driver at Red Bull to a number two driver at Ferrari! Great idea!

The reality is, there are enough top drivers without Webber to fill the number 1 slots at the top teams. Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen, are the best four in the sport. And we already have them filling the four best teams. The only way Webber can snag a top drive where he has a genuine shot at the championship is moving to McLaren and hoping they bounce back to top form. I don't doubt the latter in year's time, but I doubt the former.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 25 Mar 2013, 16:38

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Webber! Y U No Join Ferrari when you had the chance?!

Go from being a number two driver at Red Bull to a number two driver at Ferrari! Great idea!

He'd still have a crap time but at least he'd have the prestige of saying he was having a crap time in a Ferrari.

noiceinmydrink · Post by **noiceinmydrink** » 25 Mar 2013, 18:02

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Webber! Y U No Join Ferrari when you had the chance?!

Go from being a number two driver at Red Bull to a number two driver at Ferrari! Great idea!

At least Ferrari is cool and somewhat honest about it. That's how I see it anyway.

Post by **mario** » 25 Mar 2013, 18:11

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Webber! Y U No Join Ferrari when you had the chance?!

Go from being a number two driver at Red Bull to a number two driver at Ferrari! Great idea!

The reality is, there are enough top drivers without Webber to fill the number 1 slots at the top teams. Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen, are the best four in the sport. And we already have them filling the four best teams. The only way Webber can snag a top drive where he has a genuine shot at the championship is moving to McLaren and hoping they bounce back to top form. I don't doubt the latter in year's time, but I doubt the former.

That would probably be a very long shot though - McLaren are unlikely to want to recruit Webber given that he turns 37 later this year, so he is unlikely to be a competitive long term option for them (whereas Button, at 33, is likely to retain his level of competitiveness for a few years more than Webber). On the other side of the garage, Perez has a multi-year contract and potentially influential backers behind him, not to mention the advantage of youth and the potential for further personal development - again, something that Webber is likely to struggle to match.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 25 Mar 2013, 18:17

CoopsII wrote:Here follows a post not about Webbers starts but about a possible stop. Alot of the reports are zeroing in on comments Mark made about switching his phone off, doing a bit of surfing (Aussie stereotype? Check) and considering his future with Red Bull.

It seems unlikely that he'll actually bail but not impossible, what does everybody else think?

Rossi didn't quit. Mark won't quit. That's what I think.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 25 Mar 2013, 18:25

Well put, Mark.

Q: (Michael Schmidt - Auto, Motor und Sport) To all three of you, I understand the technical reasons why you have to pace yourselves at the end and why there are team orders, but let’s say for the fan, is that the price we have to pay that the teams tell you in the last stint not to attack any more because everybody was excited about the fight between Mark and Seb and everybody was a bit disappointed when we heard that Rosberg was not allowed to attack you, Lewis.

MW: I’m a huge sports fan and I think we want to see people give their best to the end. It’s extremely unusual to have both cars at the end of a race together and I think the team’s position is... we’ve gone through this many times with our own team and obviously now is a different situation for the future but... yeah, it’s part of Formula One. I think that when you have 500 employees and it was nip and tuck for Sebastian and I to be in the fence in turn one, Michael Schmidt’s happy but is the factory happy, are we happy? So when the blood is boiling and everyone is on the edge, then yeah, we are professionals, we are world class, we did the job today but it’s not an easy situation for the team. It’s always spoken about, always has been, always will be. If you had one car teams, it’s not a problem. In some teams to have a one car team is the ideal scenario but three cars, four cars, it’s always going to be the same thing, that contact between teammates is the worst scenario for a team.

As I say, I’m a big sports fan and the fans of any sport will want it to be a perfect world always. We want it to be pure, we want it to be as we see - football, boxing, cycling, whatever. We want it to be real. But there is an element of naivety… for me watching some sport as well and in the case of some Formula One fans watching this situation. It’s impossible for everybody to understand everything and that’s the same for me watching a football match or a Champions League match. Sometimes there are things you don’t understand because sometimes there is naivety.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 27 Mar 2013, 21:05

Webberfan430 wrote:Thanks Jocke. How do his stats compare with an elite f1 driver such as say Fernando Alonso during those years?

Not well.

Alonso

2013
Gained = 2

2012
Gained = 14
Lost = 0
Held = 4

2011
Gained = 11
Lost = 4
Held = 4

2010
Gained = 7
Lost = 5
Held = 7

Total:

Gained = 34
Lost = 9
Held = 15

Webberfan430 · Post by **Webberfan430** » 27 Mar 2013, 22:26

Once again, thanks for the stats Jocke.

What I don't get about Webber's starts is that some years he is decent/good, other years he is terrible. Last weekend he had a fantastic start.

I agree with stramala in that if Webber wants to be a No.1, or at least a driver with equal status he should go with McLaren. Lotus would probably not be the worst option either.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 27 Mar 2013, 22:49

I think Webber is a good driver and a likeable chap. However I am enormously perplexed at his poor starting record in F1.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 28 Mar 2013, 00:46

Why have Webber's starts been lackluster? I have never understood that.

101,000th post in the Paul Stoddart form! Yay me!

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 03 Aug 2013, 20:38

Obviously Mark has been reading this forum because the majority of his starts this season have been great

Australia: Lost 5
Malaysia: Gained 2
Bahrain: Held Position
Spain: Lost 5
Monaco: Held Position
Canada: Gained 1
Britain: Lost 10
Germany: Gained 1
Hungary: Gained 3

China was where he started from the pits

Lost 13 places off the line but most were in that Britain start so it should have been much closer.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 03 Aug 2013, 20:52

Looking at this scientifically, Webber has a tall body, so his reaction times to the lights going off would be slower than average.

SgtPepper · Post by **SgtPepper** » 03 Aug 2013, 21:57

Wallio wrote:As a rabid RBR fan

Woah woah woah, they exist?

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 03 Aug 2013, 22:14

good_Ralf wrote:Looking at this scientifically, Webber has a tall body, so his reaction times to the lights going off would be slower than average.

I also have a degree in Scientology.