The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

[dr-baker]

Look at what happened to the Ferrari F150 Italia. Nearly sued by Ford over usage of the name.

Yeah, because I still get confused between the two vehicles to this day...


Yeah,very confusing. Baffles me like hell.

And then Ferrari goes and makes the situation even worse...

[go_Rubens]

Come on, Ferrari! You're better than that!

[nome66]

Look at what happened to the Ferrari F150 Italia. Nearly sued by Ford over usage of the name.

Yeah, because I still get confused between the two vehicles to this day...


Yeah,very confusing. Baffles me like hell.

And then Ferrari goes and makes the situation even worse...

technically Ferrari wasn't selling the F150, so Ford's issue or lawsuit or whatever was invalid by American standards

[go_Rubens]

Look at what happened to the Ferrari F150 Italia. Nearly sued by Ford over usage of the name.

Yeah, because I still get confused between the two vehicles to this day...


Yeah,very confusing. Baffles me like hell.

And then Ferrari goes and makes the situation even worse...

technically Ferrari wasn't selling the F150, so Ford's issue or lawsuit or whatever was invalid by American standards

But now Ferrari have a F150 they plan to sell as a next-gen Enzo. What is Ferrari doing?!

[TomWazzleshaw]

Look at what happened to the Ferrari F150 Italia. Nearly sued by Ford over usage of the name.

Yeah, because I still get confused between the two vehicles to this day...


Yeah,very confusing. Baffles me like hell.

And then Ferrari goes and makes the situation even worse...

The truck probably would have put up more of a fight against the RB7 than the Italia ever did

[mario]

There's rumors that those 908s are sitting in a warehouse somewhere, just waiting.....

There certainly are a few questions over the way in which Peugeot's program was cancelled - although it was ostensibly to save money, Audi did later say that they saw no sense in cancelling the program that late on given that Peugeot had been upgrading their car right up until that point and most of the capital costs for that season had already been spent. There were a few suggestions that the real reason was a bout of internal politics within the company, with newly appointed managers closing the program as a symbolic break with the previous management rather than for any pragmatic reasons.

That said, there is little point in trying to bring the 908 back now - they won't comply with the 2014 regulations and would require a fair bit of reworking in order to meet the new rules, to the point where it might be more effective to start from scratch instead.

I believe the 2014 regulations require a wider greenhouse and that means a new monocoque, there will be wavers for small teams but I doubt a manufacturer would get one.

Changes in visibility are just one of the many changes that are being brought in - they have also specified changes to the rear crash structure and side impact protection zones and the front and rear roll over structures have also been raised, which are not insubstantial modifications to make to a car. The width of the cars is also being reduced by 100mm, so the 908 would be too wide, the front aero package would be illegal and the rear wing would also have the wrong dimensions too. All in all, there should be no way in which that passes through the ACO's regulations, and, as you say, the ACO won't give a waiver to a manufacturer.

[CarlosFerreira]

Changes in visibility are just one of the many changes that are being brought in - they have also specified changes to the rear crash structure and side impact protection zones and the front and rear roll over structures have also been raised, which are not insubstantial modifications to make to a car. The width of the cars is also being reduced by 100mm, so the 908 would be too wide, the front aero package would be illegal and the rear wing would also have the wrong dimensions too. All in all, there should be no way in which that passes through the ACO's regulations, and, as you say, the ACO won't give a waiver to a manufacturer.

The ACO seems to have been more than a little stung by Peugeot's sudden decision to pull out, and would be wary of vague promises.

Besides, why would Peugeot return? Audi has developed relentlessly these two years, Porsche is on their way and certainly means business, and Toyota now has one year experience under their belts. The Pugs would swagger into town in 2014 and promptly get their elegant front aero arrangement punched in.

[dinizintheoven]

909 please

I'd like to see Peugeot come back. The competition would be even more action packed in my opinion!

As for chassis number, Peugeot transitioned from the 905 to the 908, so I'll say they'll go with 910, given that 911 and 912 are often associated with Porsche. Look at what happened to the Ferrari F150 Italia. Nearly sued by Ford over usage of the name.

Peugeot's numbering system has changed. It all stems from 1986, when their Escort-Golf-Astra class car (the 305 saloon) was getting old, but they weren't even remotely close to being able to launch a "306" as its replacement - the 405 and 605 were still future models at this time. As a stop-gap, they decided to kill off the Talbot brand once and for all (with the curious exception of the Express van, our answer to the Peugeot J5, which lived on into the 90s), and the ready-for-launch Talbot Arizona was hastily retooled as a Peugeot, which they gave the out-of-step number 309. That served them for seven years, and the numbering came back in step in 1993 with the 306; by this time, they'd already had the go-ahead to start the x06 numbering range with the 106 in 1991.

This, in turn, stored up problems in the same segment, which tends to have the fastest turnover of them all. The 308 was the first of the x08 series to be launched, and hence the first that would need to be replaced... hang on a minute, we've already had the 309, and apparently there were problems with jumping straight to 310 as Porsche has first refusal on the "x1x" series in the way Peugeot did many years ago with any "x0x" numbering (the Porsche 911 was originally intended to be called the 901 until the Frenchies intervened) - although they seem to have been OK with BMW and Rover using such numbers, possibly because all three digits aren't specific to one model.

Peugeot's solution to this is that they've halted their number increments. The 308 will be replaced with the MkII 308, and so on; they're still selling the 107, but I suspect there'll be a 108 in the not-too-distant future, and that will be replaced circa 2020 by the MkII 108... and so on. Meanwhile, problems with reusing numbers now consigned to the dustbin of history (which means they could have reused 309 anyway...), they've decided on a second range for "developing markets" (e.g. China, India, South America etc) where the more basic but still very Peugeot-esque 301 is available, and there'll be a whole load more x01 cars in those parts of the world who never heard of the original 301 anyway, seeing as Peugeot never sold the original anywhere outside France.

So, this very long-winded answer to the original quandary: as the 908 HDi FAP was replaced by the 908 with no extra letters, if Peugeot returned to endurance racing, that second 908 would in turn be replaced by... the 908. And that by the 908, and another 908, and so on. And if we see a Peugeot 901, that'll be a Chinese subsidiary team or similar...

[mario]

Changes in visibility are just one of the many changes that are being brought in - they have also specified changes to the rear crash structure and side impact protection zones and the front and rear roll over structures have also been raised, which are not insubstantial modifications to make to a car. The width of the cars is also being reduced by 100mm, so the 908 would be too wide, the front aero package would be illegal and the rear wing would also have the wrong dimensions too. All in all, there should be no way in which that passes through the ACO's regulations, and, as you say, the ACO won't give a waiver to a manufacturer.

The ACO seems to have been more than a little stung by Peugeot's sudden decision to pull out, and would be wary of vague promises.

Besides, why would Peugeot return? Audi has developed relentlessly these two years, Porsche is on their way and certainly means business, and Toyota now has one year experience under their belts. The Pugs would swagger into town in 2014 and promptly get their elegant front aero arrangement punched in.

I have to agree that the chances of Peugeot returning in the near future are likely to be low - given the fairly sizeable changes for 2014, Peugeot would have to invest very heavily in order to come up with a competitive car given the strength of the opposition, and that sort of investment would be difficult to hide to outside observers. With ostensibly stiffening competition and a likely sharp increase in costs with the ACO's push towards hybrid power systems, Le Mans is probably not quite as attractive to Peugeot as it once was (and Peugeot seem to be losing interest in motorsport as a whole).

[go_Rubens]

Changes in visibility are just one of the many changes that are being brought in - they have also specified changes to the rear crash structure and side impact protection zones and the front and rear roll over structures have also been raised, which are not insubstantial modifications to make to a car. The width of the cars is also being reduced by 100mm, so the 908 would be too wide, the front aero package would be illegal and the rear wing would also have the wrong dimensions too. All in all, there should be no way in which that passes through the ACO's regulations, and, as you say, the ACO won't give a waiver to a manufacturer.

The ACO seems to have been more than a little stung by Peugeot's sudden decision to pull out, and would be wary of vague promises.

Besides, why would Peugeot return? Audi has developed relentlessly these two years, Porsche is on their way and certainly means business, and Toyota now has one year experience under their belts. The Pugs would swagger into town in 2014 and promptly get their elegant front aero arrangement punched in.

I have to agree that the chances of Peugeot returning in the near future are likely to be low - given the fairly sizeable changes for 2014, Peugeot would have to invest very heavily in order to come up with a competitive car given the strength of the opposition, and that sort of investment would be difficult to hide to outside observers. With ostensibly stiffening competition and a likely sharp increase in costs with the ACO's push towards hybrid power systems, Le Mans is probably not quite as attractive to Peugeot as it once was (and Peugeot seem to be losing interest in motorsport as a whole).

Quite honestly, even if they wanted to come back, I don't see why they should even bother. I think Peugeot should focus on road car design and other mish mash which isn't as expensive as the WEC. The WEC just simply isn't top priority, I think. As for Peugeot losing interest in Motorsport as a whole, I completely agree to that.

Motorsports in general have been rising in costs, especially WEC and F1. I like the fact that the ACO are pushing for hybrid systems and technologies related to the road. In fact, I love every single aspect of that. Except for the fact that costs are likely to raise fairly dramatically. That doesn't do any good for the privateers who are there to compete, not test road-relevant technologies. A way to slap the teams like Pescarolo and Rebellion in the face, even with exceptions that are likely to be made to them since they're privateers.

Overall, I say that Peugeot are not coming back for good or for a very long time partly with the costs with the rule changes.

[Hound55]

So, is anyone else staying up the full 24 hours this year? I know I will, been doing it for 3 years now.

My friends think I am insane. I probably am.

[go_Rubens]

So, is anyone else staying up the full 24 hours this year? I know I will, been doing it for 3 years now.

My friends think I am insane. I probably am.

Dang, I'll be away 1,000 miles from home when the race occurs. That sucks...

On the other hand, maybe a relative of mine can record a bit of the race on tape so I can see it with no spoilers.

My friends think I'm insane for traveling 1,000 miles away from home for a single weekend!

But. I stayed up nearly 24 hours just to watch Melbourne this year, so you are not alone for staying up 24 hours to watch a race and other stuff.

[The Dutch Bear]

So, is anyone else staying up the full 24 hours this year? I know I will, been doing it for 3 years now.

My friends think I am insane. I probably am.

Dang, I'll be away 1,000 miles from home when the race occurs. That sucks...

On the other hand, maybe a relative of mine can record a bit of the race on tape so I can see it with no spoilers.

My friends think I'm insane for traveling 1,000 miles away from home for a single weekend!

But. I stayed up nearly 24 hours just to watch Melbourne this year, so you are not alone for staying up 24 hours to watch a race and other stuff.

Here in NL the race will be aired the full 24 hours on RTL7. I'm going to give it a shot as well.
I think it's a specific type of insanity only motorsports fanatics are suffering from.

[pi314159]

So, is anyone else staying up the full 24 hours this year? I know I will, been doing it for 3 years now.

My friends think I am insane. I probably am.

Dang, I'll be away 1,000 miles from home when the race occurs. That sucks...

On the other hand, maybe a relative of mine can record a bit of the race on tape so I can see it with no spoilers.

My friends think I'm insane for traveling 1,000 miles away from home for a single weekend!

But. I stayed up nearly 24 hours just to watch Melbourne this year, so you are not alone for staying up 24 hours to watch a race and other stuff.

Here in NL the race will be aired the full 24 hours on RTL7. I'm going to give it a shot as well.
I think it's a specific type of insanity only motorsports fanatics are suffering from.

I'm trying to stay up the full 24 hours this year.

[Faustus]

So, is anyone else staying up the full 24 hours this year? I know I will, been doing it for 3 years now.

My friends think I am insane. I probably am.

Definitely doing it again this year. Eurosport is showing it and Radio Le Mans is covering it as well. The fiancee is off at Royal Ascot on the saturday and will be probably be asleep for most of sunday, so it's all good.

[go_Rubens]

Man, I'd do it, if it weren't for my traveling to whitewater slalom competitions and my parents not letting me stay up the whole night (remember, I'm a younger forum member). Besides this, I'd do it.

But the coverage here in America is crap. The whole race is on TV and online. The two share coverage. Typical Speed for you. I'm glad they'll be gone by August 17. Plus, I don't have good Internet, which sucks.

[kevinbotz]

Stocking up on frozen pizza and cans of Dr. Pepper.

24 hours. I'm ready to go.

[Hound55]

Stocking up on frozen pizza and cans of Dr. Pepper.

24 hours. I'm ready to go.

My graduation party is the day before. I'm asking for Red Bull

[Onxy Wrecked]

Stocking up on frozen pizza and cans of Dr. Pepper.

24 hours. I'm ready to go.

My graduation party is the day before. I'm asking for Red Bull

As is my brother's. I am just hoping he'll let me watch the race on TV for as long as it airs before I go online and hope some leftover lasagna still exists.

[roblo97]

Stocking up on frozen pizza and cans of Dr. Pepper.

24 hours. I'm ready to go.

My graduation party is the day before. I'm asking for Red Bull

As is my brother's. I am just hoping he'll let me watch the race on TV for as long as it airs before I go online and hope some leftover lasagna still exists.

I wish we had the cultural institution otherwise known as Walmart here in britain

[Faustus]

I wish we had the cultural institution otherwise known as Walmart here in britain

You have, it's called Asda. The Walmart group owns Asda.

[roblo97]

I wish we had the cultural institution otherwise known as Walmart here in britain

You have, it's called Asda. The Walmart group owns Asda.

i know because i live near one of them asda places

[Faustus]

I wish we had the cultural institution otherwise known as Walmart here in britain

You have, it's called Asda. The Walmart group owns Asda.

i know because i live near one of them asda places

Evil aren't they?

[dr-baker]

I wish we had the cultural institution otherwise known as Walmart here in britain

You have, it's called Asda. The Walmart group owns Asda.

i know because i live near one of them asda places

Makro and Costco are near-equivalents, aren't they? Or have I totally misunderstood what Walmart is to America? Is Asda a true cultural equivalent?

[Salamander]

I dunno. All I know from when I lived in Canada is that I stayed away from Walmarts as much as I could.

[go_Rubens]

I dunno. All I know from when I lived in Canada is that I stayed away from Walmarts as much as I could.

Walmart's prices are low because the stuff they sell there is crap. 'Nuff said.

I stay away from there as much as possible. At least I live about 30 km away!

[Ataxia]

I dunno. All I know from when I lived in Canada is that I stayed away from Walmarts as much as I could.

Walmart's prices are low because the stuff they sell there is crap. 'Nuff said.

I stay away from there as much as possible. At least I live about 30 km away!

"Nooo, don't look! Don't look at it's bargains!"

[Shadaza]

It seems the Lotus team may have to shop at Walmart, bailiffs arrived in Le Mans and took all their stuff

[Faustus]

It seems the Lotus team may have to shop at Walmart, bailiffs arrived in Le Mans and took all their stuff

Yeah, just saw that. Oh dear.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108140

[go_Rubens]

It seems the Lotus team may have to shop at Walmart, bailiffs arrived in Le Mans and took all their stuff

Yeah, just saw that. Oh dear.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108140

What the bathplug? They steal so they can sell quality material as scrap?

[roblo97]

It seems the Lotus team may have to shop at Walmart, bailiffs arrived in Le Mans and took all their stuff

Yeah, just saw that. Oh dear.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108140

What the bathplug? They steal so they can sell quality material as scrap?

Not that it matters anymore because Lotus have been cleared to race

[mario]

It seems the Lotus team may have to shop at Walmart, bailiffs arrived in Le Mans and took all their stuff

Yeah, just saw that. Oh dear.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108140

What the bathplug? They steal so they can sell quality material as scrap?

Since you ask, yes, a baliff has the legal power to seize and sell the goods of an individual or organisation that has defaulted on its debts if appointed to do so by the courts. In this instance Lotus has succeeded in having the courts strike the lawsuit down but, had the courts agreed with Adess AG, the baliffs would have then been permitted to sell what they had seized from the team in order to recover the money that Adess AG claims it is owed.

On another note, it does not look good for Toyota so far - they appear to be about two seconds a lap down compared to last year and four seconds a lap down on the leading Audi. We will see what happens in the race, but it looks like Audi are going to have another very comfortable victory on their hands this year if they carry on at this rate.

[Faustus]

I'm disappointed that Loïc Duval only did a 3.22.349s. I was hoping to see the Audis and possibly the Toyotas a lot closer to the outright lap record of 3:18. Duval is already over 3 seconds quicker than the best time set during the 1st qualifying session last year, so maybe a sub 3:20 is possible. 2 more qualifying sessions tonight, should be good.

[go_Rubens]

I'm disappointed that Loïc Duval only did a 3.22.349s. I was hoping to see the Audis and possibly the Toyotas a lot closer to the outright lap record of 3:18. Duval is already over 3 seconds quicker than the best time set during the 1st qualifying session last year, so maybe a sub 3:20 is possible. 2 more qualifying sessions tonight, should be good.

Unfortunately in America, we don't get coverage of Le Mans qualifying. Pity. But the fact that they are close to a lap time of around 3:20 surprised me, because last year and the year before last they were in the 3:25-26-27 range. What's making the cars go faster?

[Faustus]

I'm disappointed that Loïc Duval only did a 3.22.349s. I was hoping to see the Audis and possibly the Toyotas a lot closer to the outright lap record of 3:18. Duval is already over 3 seconds quicker than the best time set during the 1st qualifying session last year, so maybe a sub 3:20 is possible. 2 more qualifying sessions tonight, should be good.

Unfortunately in America, we don't get coverage of Le Mans qualifying. Pity. But the fact that they are close to a lap time of around 3:20 surprised me, because last year and the year before last they were in the 3:25-26-27 range. What's making the cars go faster?

Aero and engine power. Audi has revised their engine and apparently is now making a lot more power than last year and the 2013-spec car, especially in long-tail form, has highly revised aerodynamics, including a hot-blown diffuser.

[Shadaza]

Wat. I....like it.

[IdeFan]

It certainly managed to avoid the ugly stick that the DeltaWing Coupe got hit with.

Is there any information about how "refueling" will be done? Fast charge, quick change battery packs? I believe other modern electric racers are only able to run for about 20 minutes flat out, even with significant gains on that the Nissan is going to need a lot of pitstops!

[mario]

It certainly managed to avoid the ugly stick that the DeltaWing Coupe got hit with.

Is there any information about how "refueling" will be done? Fast charge, quick change battery packs? I believe other modern electric racers are only able to run for about 20 minutes flat out, even with significant gains on that the Nissan is going to need a lot of pitstops!

The indication so far is that the car is a conventional petrol-electric hybrid - it's similar to the system that Toyota has in the TS030, although, unlike the TS030, the petrol engine will be a small capacity turbo engine (rather than the normally aspirated unit Toyota uses) and the car can run either on batteries, petrol or a combination of the two (whereas Toyota, being limited by the regulations, can only run on electric power within the pit lane).
Apart from the variable power output, though, the only real difference between this system and the ones used by Audi and Toyota is the use of batteries - Toyota uses a super capacitor based system and Audi uses Williams's flywheel storage system. It's kind of underwhelming in that regard, it must be said - perhaps the devil is in the detail, but it doesn't sound like much of an advance, if any, on already existing designs.

[nome66]

Wat. I....like it.

reminds me of science fiction films.
are they acting as a separate entity from DeltaWing/AAR?

[go_Rubens]

Wat. I....like it.

reminds me of science fiction films

It reminds me of something long and weird that is shaped like some sort of aero plane.