What Tracks Will Get the Boot?

[Ataxia]

Oh.

Mind you turn 15 at China is pretty lame too so it's not on it's own.

Surprised there was such a big conversation about small corners, but then I remembered you guys were into kinky stuff...

[Captain Hammer]

Actually, that sounds like a good idea in case another Korean GP fiasco occurs.

I don't think that was a fiasco. I think it was very deliberately done that way to give the teams an extra engine (or at least to leave the possibility of an extra engine open).

[SuzukiSwift]

Usually you guys are much more vigilant about this than I am, but I'm surprised nobody posted this yet:

The Walloon government has invested enough capital to keep the Belgian Grand Prix on the calendar until 2018.

This essentially means that every track on my track board that I posted on the last page is slotted in the "A-OK" column. With so many locations wanting to host an F1 race, this is going to become a bidding war that can only benefit Bernie's pockets unless they want to expand the calendar again.

Soon they'll have tracks that will bid for a spot on the "Backup List" just in case one track can't fulfill its obligations and they need a replacement on the fly. Actually, that sounds like a good idea in case another Korean GP fiasco occurs.

Phew.

[dr-baker]

Oh.

Mind you turn 15 at China is pretty lame too so it's not on it's own.

Surprised there was such a big conversation about small corners, but then I remembered you guys were into kinky stuff...

Especially kinky chickens!!!

[Bobby Doorknobs]

The 'ring's gone.

[AdrianBelmonte_]

The 'ring's gone.

And this is the part when the 'ring gets proofly Tilked

Like this (dramatization)

[Salamander]

The 'ring's gone.

And this is the part when the 'ring gets proofly Tilked

Like this (dramatization)

... you do realise they already "Tilked" the Nurburgring, right?

[AdrianBelmonte_]

The 'ring's gone.

And this is the part when the 'ring gets proofly Tilked

Like this (dramatization)

... you do realise they already "Tilked" the Nurburgring, right?

Yes, but i mean more intensely Tilked

[Salamander]

And this is the part when the 'ring gets proofly Tilked

Like this (dramatization)

... you do realise they already "Tilked" the Nurburgring, right?

Yes, but i mean more intensely Tilked

Except that such a modification would only waste money, since it's (presumably) track attendance that is causing the GP to move.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Except that such a modification would only waste money, since it's (presumably) track attendance that is causing the GP to move.

It doesn't seem like a very good reason to move it. Hockenheim's attendance wasn't exactly impressive last year either...

[Ataxia]

Except that such a modification would only waste money, since it's (presumably) track attendance that is causing the GP to move.

It doesn't seem like a very good reason to move it. Hockenheim's attendance wasn't exactly impressive last year either...

Finance is the issue...Hockenheim is slightly better off than the Nurburgring in that respect.

And (pardon this mid-post rant) please, can we stop using "Tilke" as if it's some kind of synonym for butchered? Fine, the man divides opinion, but you cannot deny the bulk of his tracks have actually been pretty good. Sepang has been awesome. Shanghai had a bit of a reputation, but in the past few years it's produced some good races and is more or less a calendar staple. People moan about Abu Dhabi, but I think the circuit and the bright, shiny surroundings are a real celebration of F1. Bahrain's produced some good races as well, and we have the novelty of Singapore too. Fine, Korea and India were lacking somewhat, although if Korea was actually not in the middle of nowhere and had a bit of scenery we might feel a little better about it. We didn't really get to see what Sochi was capable of either, since a number of factors ensured that its potential to kick up good races was masked. It was a little similar to Valencia, which had a couple of good races too.

As for his modifications, the Red Bull Ring is a fan favourite and this year showed it was still churning out good races. Hockenheim used to be a power circuit, but now actually requires skill to navigate. The races at Fuji were also pretty good. People just like to moan because he dared to change a layout people were familiar with.

Tilke has been commissioned to produce circuits that create overtaking opportunities in modern Formula 1. I think he's generally acheived that, and I don't like the way he's become an easy target for casual fans to vent their fury.

[sswishbone]

Gotta say I am not surprised about Nurgburgring going and I reckon it is part of a long-term strategy to make F1 in Germany uneconomical to get them back for attempting to mess with Bernie

[CoopsII]

The 'ring's gone.

The modern day 'ring I will always remember as Badoers track.

[watka]

I think part of the problem with Tilke, aside from the fact that he usually has an awful canvas to work with in terms of being forced to design street circuits, is that his circuits try to be all things to all people. Look at the older circuits and most of them have a distinct character, like Monza and Hockenheim are/were known as power circuits, Silverstone being known as a big aero circuit, Suzuka as a technical circuit and Hungaroring as a tight circuit. Very few of the Tilke tracks are talked about in the same manner, its as if there is a requirement for each track to have a certain number of hairpins, or sweepers, or long straights. Tilke tracks are often a great challenge for the drivers, but by having all these elements on the same track in order to produce a rounded challenge, it actually makes the racing more predictable. A car suited to one Tilke circuit is likely to be suited to all Tilke circuits - look at Red Bull in recent years and the races that they didn't win were primarily on non-Tilke circuits. At least with say Monza and Hungaroring, you're more likely to see different teams coming to the fore than the "normal pecking order".

[tommykl]

I think part of the problem with Tilke, aside from the fact that he usually has an awful canvas to work with in terms of being forced to design street circuits, is that his circuits try to be all things to all people. Look at the older circuits and most of them have a distinct character, like Monza and Hockenheim are/were known as power circuits, Silverstone being known as a big aero circuit, Suzuka as a technical circuit and Hungaroring as a tight circuit. Very few of the Tilke tracks are talked about in the same manner, its as if there is a requirement for each track to have a certain number of hairpins, or sweepers, or long straights. Tilke tracks are often a great challenge for the drivers, but by having all these elements on the same track in order to produce a rounded challenge, it actually makes the racing more predictable. A car suited to one Tilke circuit is likely to be suited to all Tilke circuits - look at Red Bull in recent years and the races that they didn't win were primarily on non-Tilke circuits. At least with say Monza and Hungaroring, you're more likely to see different teams coming to the fore than the "normal pecking order".

This. This, so much.

Apart from a couple of exceptions, Tilke's circuits don't give generally bad racing, and those saying they do are saying it because they don't want to mention their actual reason. That, or they're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

Anyways, the main problem with Tilkedromes is the fact that they can be regrouped in one word. "Tilkedrome". When you hear/read that word, what do you think of? Overly long straights into tight corners, occasionally preceded by tight hairpins as well, obligatory section with fast and flowing corners, expansive run-off areas, flashy architecture in the pits and grandstands... If you try to describe a Tilkedrome, the description you come up with can also describe most others, and that's why a lot of people dislike them. They lack character, something that sets them apart from others. The lack of corner names doesn't help. It's easier to remember an overtake if it's "slipstreaming past into Stowe" rather than "outbraking into Turn 5".

Tilke's tracks correspond to a formula for successful tracks. And they're completely artificial. The reason older circuits are so revered is that their layout was determined by nature, by streams, hills, valleys, forests. They feel natural. You're going around the hill instead of negotiating a low-speed hairpin complex. In trying to make good circuits, Tilke hasn't been given the most crucial thing in making a circuit that stands out: geology. Without natural elevation changes, every corner seems forced, unnecessary. They don't feel right.

And that's the problem with Tilkedromes.

[DanielPT]

I think part of the problem with Tilke, aside from the fact that he usually has an awful canvas to work with in terms of being forced to design street circuits, is that his circuits try to be all things to all people. Look at the older circuits and most of them have a distinct character, like Monza and Hockenheim are/were known as power circuits, Silverstone being known as a big aero circuit, Suzuka as a technical circuit and Hungaroring as a tight circuit. Very few of the Tilke tracks are talked about in the same manner, its as if there is a requirement for each track to have a certain number of hairpins, or sweepers, or long straights. Tilke tracks are often a great challenge for the drivers, but by having all these elements on the same track in order to produce a rounded challenge, it actually makes the racing more predictable. A car suited to one Tilke circuit is likely to be suited to all Tilke circuits - look at Red Bull in recent years and the races that they didn't win were primarily on non-Tilke circuits. At least with say Monza and Hungaroring, you're more likely to see different teams coming to the fore than the "normal pecking order".

This. This, so much.

Apart from a couple of exceptions, Tilke's circuits don't give generally bad racing, and those saying they do are saying it because they don't want to mention their actual reason. That, or they're just complaining for the sake of complaining.

Anyways, the main problem with Tilkedromes is the fact that they can be regrouped in one word. "Tilkedrome". When you hear/read that word, what do you think of? Overly long straights into tight corners, occasionally preceded by tight hairpins as well, obligatory section with fast and flowing corners, expansive run-off areas, flashy architecture in the pits and grandstands... If you try to describe a Tilkedrome, the description you come up with can also describe most others, and that's why a lot of people dislike them. They lack character, something that sets them apart from others. The lack of corner names doesn't help. It's easier to remember an overtake if it's "slipstreaming past into Stowe" rather than "outbraking into Turn 5".

Tilke's tracks correspond to a formula for successful tracks. And they're completely artificial. The reason older circuits are so revered is that their layout was determined by nature, by streams, hills, valleys, forests. They feel natural. You're going around the hill instead of negotiating a low-speed hairpin complex. In trying to make good circuits, Tilke hasn't been given the most crucial thing in making a circuit that stands out: geology. Without natural elevation changes, every corner seems forced, unnecessary. They don't feel right.

And that's the problem with Tilkedromes.

[Spectoremg]

I've mixed feelings about Tilkodromes. I do think they get some unfair criticism though. Something they do have is a long straight or two - excellent in the DRS age but sadly no good for lunching ultra reliable engines. And I'd take one of them any day over the Hungaroring or Monaco.
I lament the alterations made to the old classic circuits; Hockenheim and Silverstone have been neutered - thank god Monza's been left alone.

[UncreativeUsername37]

I've mixed feelings about Tilkodromes. I do think they get some unfair criticism though. Something they do have is a long straight or two - excellent in the DRS age but sadly no good for lunching ultra reliable engines. And I'd take one of them any day over the Hungaroring or Monaco.
I lament the alterations made to the old classic circuits; Hockenheim and Silverstone have been neutered - thank god Monza's been left alone.

At what point was Monza "left alone"? It's had more layout changes than anyone can remember.

[Spectoremg]

I've mixed feelings about Tilkodromes. I do think they get some unfair criticism though. Something they do have is a long straight or two - excellent in the DRS age but sadly no good for lunching ultra reliable engines. And I'd take one of them any day over the Hungaroring or Monaco.
I lament the alterations made to the old classic circuits; Hockenheim and Silverstone have been neutered - thank god Monza's been left alone.

At what point was Monza "left alone"? It's had more layout changes than anyone can remember.

I'm ever so sorry, I didn't realise it was National Be Specific Day; Monza's been roughly the same layout with tweaks since colour telly was available

[Salamander]

To be honest - and I expect to get a lot of flak for this but whatever - Monza could do with an adjustment. There are only 3 corners worth mentioning on the track, the Lesmos and the Parabolica. Everything else is either flat out or chicanes.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

To be honest - and I expect to get a lot of flak for this but whatever - Monza could do with an adjustment. There are only 3 corners worth mentioning on the track, the Lesmos and the Parabolica. Everything else is either flat out or chicanes.

Bring back the oval I say!

But no, I'm happy with Monza the way it is.

[watka]

To be honest - and I expect to get a lot of flak for this but whatever - Monza could do with an adjustment. There are only 3 corners worth mentioning on the track, the Lesmos and the Parabolica. Everything else is either flat out or chicanes.

That's the point. It's different from other tracks by its primitive nature.

[go_Rubens]

In comparison to the rest of the calendar, Monza is the most unique because there's a lack of features in it. For me, I like power circuits with a decent corner or two, which is why Monza is my favorite track out there. If the old Hockenheim was still around (not angry at the mods, they are justified), perhaps Monza wouldn't be as iconic as a flat out power circuit.

My only problem with the calendar is besides Monza, Spa, and Silverstone (which is debatable), are the only engine breakers out there. Correct me if I'm wrong about that statement, but besides those 3, there isn't much of anything that really tests the durability of engines.

[Salamander]

To be honest - and I expect to get a lot of flak for this but whatever - Monza could do with an adjustment. There are only 3 corners worth mentioning on the track, the Lesmos and the Parabolica. Everything else is either flat out or chicanes.

That's the point. It's different from other tracks by its primitive nature.

Yeah, but would it kill them to maybe spice it up a bit? It's dull as dishwater for me as-is.

[go_Rubens]

To be honest - and I expect to get a lot of flak for this but whatever - Monza could do with an adjustment. There are only 3 corners worth mentioning on the track, the Lesmos and the Parabolica. Everything else is either flat out or chicanes.

That's the point. It's different from other tracks by its primitive nature.

Yeah, but would it kill them to maybe spice it up a bit? It's dull as dishwater for me as-is.

I'd like to knpw how you'd think Monza could be spiced up. I think it's fine as is, and I'm intrigued to know why.

[Salamander]

I'd like to knpw how you'd think Monza could be spiced up. I think it's fine as is, and I'm intrigued to know why.

I dunno, I'm not a track designer and I don't pretend to be. I just think having only 3 corners worth mentioning is kind of dull. There's got to be something else you can do with the track.

[Miguel98]

The thing I'm surprised about the Ring is that Bernie says "there's nobody there". *points to Hockheinheim stands this year". Bad excuse, so I guess there's another reason, probably financially related.

I like Monza, since it's a bit different. Obviously, it would be better if unrealibility was a factor, which in today's F1, isn't.

[andrew2209]

Removing the chicanes would spice up Monza, it would just make it too unsafe.

[Backmarker]

It would be interesting if F1 went back to Imola. The Variante Bassa chicane is gone now, so Rivazza 2 to Tamburello is flat-out again, but they stick the chicane back in for the motorbikes.

[Spectoremg]

Leave Monza alone, it would be change for the sake of it. It's old-fashioned and it's got charm. And as for Hockenheim, I could weep!

[Salamander]

Leave Monza alone, it would be change for the sake of it. It's old-fashioned and it's got charm. And as for Hockenheim, I could weep!

Hockenheim was even worse, that didn't even have a single interesting corner before it was modified.

[Spectoremg]

Leave Monza alone, it would be change for the sake of it. It's old-fashioned and it's got charm. And as for Hockenheim, I could weep!

Hockenheim was even worse, that didn't even have a single interesting corner before it was modified.

I think we're arguing about personal taste here so let's leave it at that. Or maybe I just prefer trees to deserts?

[Salamander]

Leave Monza alone, it would be change for the sake of it. It's old-fashioned and it's got charm. And as for Hockenheim, I could weep!

Hockenheim was even worse, that didn't even have a single interesting corner before it was modified.

I think we're arguing about personal taste here so let's leave it at that. Or maybe I just prefer trees to deserts?

Or perhaps I prefer corners to straights.

[UncreativeUsername37]

Hockenheim was even worse, that didn't even have a single interesting corner before it was modified.

I think we're arguing about personal taste here so let's leave it at that. Or maybe I just prefer trees to deserts?

Or perhaps I prefer corners to straights.

Any track seems like a magical adventure when it's through a forest. If you built the old Hockenheimring today in the middle of a desert, it would be universally hated.

[Nessafox]

Or perhaps I prefer corners to straights.

A good racing track is like a beautiful woman: curvy

[Salamander]

Any track seems like a magical adventure when it's through a forest. If you built the old Hockenheimring today in the middle of a desert, it would be universally hated.

Did I ever say I liked tracks in deserts?

Or perhaps I prefer corners to straights.

A good racing track is like a beautiful woman: curvy

This guy gets it.

[UncreativeUsername37]

Any track seems like a magical adventure when it's through a forest. If you built the old Hockenheimring today in the middle of a desert, it would be universally hated.

Did I ever say I liked tracks in deserts?

Just putting my opinion out there... like you do on Internet forums....

[mario]

Leave Monza alone, it would be change for the sake of it. It's old-fashioned and it's got charm. And as for Hockenheim, I could weep!

Hockenheim was even worse, that didn't even have a single interesting corner before it was modified.

I must admit that I fall into that category too - maybe it is just me, but I have no real affection for the old Hockenheim circuit and in fact found it fairly dull.

The problem I have with the circuit it is that, in terms of the balance between the performance of the car and the ability of the driver, the circuit layout puts too much of an emphasis on the former (even though I tend to look at things with a technical slant, I appreciate that there has to be a balance between the two aspects) - to me, Hunt's pithy complaint about the processional nature of the old Hockenheim circuit sums it up.

Part of the appeal of the old layout was that it was a car breaker, which therefore meant it sometimes threw up unusual results and generated a sense of frisson from the uncertainty over whether an engine would fail dramatically - however, with the longer life engines we now have in the sport, the interest arising from the possibility of reliability changing the field would be much smaller. I'd wager that, if you were to run a race with the current generation of cars, you'd probably end up with a fairly boring race with rapid field spread and few events to really talk about.

[Captain Hammer]

The thing I'm surprised about the Ring is that Bernie says "there's nobody there". *points to Hockheinheim stands this year".

Some of the comments about the Hockenheim crowd were a joke - especially from Toto Wolff when he was whinging about low attendance on the Friday. For one, Friday is a working day, so attendance at any Grand Prix is always low. And two, it was a week after Germany won the World Cup in Brazil. Given the time difference, that match would have been broadcast at an awkward hour in Europe, no doubt leading to many people calling in "sick" on Monday morning, and it's unlikely that they would have wanted to call in "sick" on Friday as well.

[mario]

The thing I'm surprised about the Ring is that Bernie says "there's nobody there". *points to Hockheinheim stands this year".

Some of the comments about the Hockenheim crowd were a joke - especially from Toto Wolff when he was whinging about low attendance on the Friday. For one, Friday is a working day, so attendance at any Grand Prix is always low. And two, it was a week after Germany won the World Cup in Brazil. Given the time difference, that match would have been broadcast at an awkward hour in Europe, no doubt leading to many people calling in "sick" on Monday morning, and it's unlikely that they would have wanted to call in "sick" on Friday as well.

It wasn't only the attendance figures for Friday that were poor, even allowing for context - the race weekend figures as a whole were fairly dismal, with the actual race day attendance being the worst on record for over a decade.

Mind you, Miguel98, I'm not sure if Bernie's comments about there being "nobody there" was directed at the crowd, as I was under the impression it was directed at the owners of the Nurburgring. From what I have seen, the circuit has been sold at least twice over the past year and it is not entirely clear who exactly owns it right now - that, I think, was what Bernie was referring to when he made those comments.