Red Bull threatening to quit F1...again

[Londoner]

Yup, Mr Mateschitz and co are stirring the pot again. Red Bull are going the way of Benetton in the late 1990s probably, steadily reducing their involvement as the team slides down the field before selling it off.

And, as you may expect, a certain octogenarian has waded in with his two pence worth on the Red Bull/Mercedes issue.

told Sport Bild Mercedes motorsport director Toto Wolff can 'have an inscription on his tombstone which says 'I helped kill F1''

Oh dear...

[watka]

Yep, looks like they are heaping yet more pressure onto Renault in order to save face. Red Bull can't be seen as anything other than being top dogs.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Yeah, F1 Fanatic's round-up is particularly entertaining tonight...

[dr-baker]

And, as you may expect, a certain octogenarian has waded in with his two pence worth on the Red Bull/Mercedes issue.

told Sport Bild Mercedes motorsport director Toto Wolff can 'have an inscription on his tombstone which says 'I helped kill F1''

Oh dear...

Yep, pointing the finger. Now remind me Bernie, who runs the sport again?

[CoopsII]

Now remind me Bernie, who runs the sport again?

That's who.

[DanielPT]

Let them leave. The sport should not be held hostage by anyone. It is the same since the Ferrari days. Sure RBR spends a lot in F1, but when they entered they knew how it worked. Again, this is still sport. Spending hundreds of millions should not give them the right to win or to battle at the top. Besides, if they are whining so much about the engine, why not doing like Williams or Lotus? They changed their supplier after all.

Now remind me Bernie, who runs the sport again?

That's who.

Those who milk the sport of it's money...

[Dom_Wings]

I would have really watched F1 with Jaguar as it used to be before 2005, rather than Red Bull...

[mario]

Let them leave. The sport should not be held hostage by anyone. It is the same since the Ferrari days. Sure RBR spends a lot in F1, but when they entered they knew how it worked. Again, this is still sport. Spending hundreds of millions should not give them the right to win or to battle at the top. Besides, if they are whining so much about the engine, why not doing like Williams or Lotus? They changed their supplier after all.

Whilst Lotus were able to switch engine suppliers, Red Bull might find it harder to do so by comparison.

From the point of view of Mercedes, they are probably fairly confident that neither Lotus, Force India nor Williams will be able to present a season long challenge to them, and from their point of view there was probably little risk in supplying Lotus with engines. Red Bull, however, are much more likely to compete directly with them, so Mercedes would probably be much more wary in supplying them.

Similarly, Ferrari are also likely to take the attitude that they are perfectly happy for Red Bull to be hobbled by their engine supplier, and therefore are unlikely to want to supply them either.

Given that, the only other current engine supplier in the field that might be a possible option would be Honda - however, unless Honda were able to improve their performance significantly, there would be little incentive for Red Bull to switch from Renault to Honda.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

It would be a shame if Red Bull let a little thing like rejectfulness drive them from the sport. That said, bathplug them for constantly whining this season. Besides, it can't be just the power unit if Toro Rosso is so competitive so far this season.

[DanielPT]

Whilst Lotus were able to switch engine suppliers, Red Bull might find it harder to do so by comparison.

From the point of view of Mercedes, they are probably fairly confident that neither Lotus, Force India nor Williams will be able to present a season long challenge to them, and from their point of view there was probably little risk in supplying Lotus with engines. Red Bull, however, are much more likely to compete directly with them, so Mercedes would probably be much more wary in supplying them.

Similarly, Ferrari are also likely to take the attitude that they are perfectly happy for Red Bull to be hobbled by their engine supplier, and therefore are unlikely to want to supply them either.

Given that, the only other current engine supplier in the field that might be a possible option would be Honda - however, unless Honda were able to improve their performance significantly, there would be little incentive for Red Bull to switch from Renault to Honda.

You forgot two other alternatives. I know they are not likely for next year, but could be to the year after if they really wanted it. A) Find a new supplier just like McLaren did or B) Build their own engine. For the A) it wouldn't be easy for them to lure anyone competent enough but Red Bull is a massive company and has the best designer on the grid. Plus they have knowledge on what went wrong with Renault. They could try to go to Audi/VW/Porsche or BMW. Mercedes is leading the way by a long shot and reaping the fame for trouncing other manufacturers in F1 (which is still important) and that could help to bring some major Mercedes rivals into F1. If not, there were also some rumors going around saying they were employing engine engineers. They were so vocal in the criticism to Renault that maybe it is time for them to put money where their mouth is. It could be the right opportunity for them to become full on racers.

[mario]

Whilst Lotus were able to switch engine suppliers, Red Bull might find it harder to do so by comparison.

From the point of view of Mercedes, they are probably fairly confident that neither Lotus, Force India nor Williams will be able to present a season long challenge to them, and from their point of view there was probably little risk in supplying Lotus with engines. Red Bull, however, are much more likely to compete directly with them, so Mercedes would probably be much more wary in supplying them.

Similarly, Ferrari are also likely to take the attitude that they are perfectly happy for Red Bull to be hobbled by their engine supplier, and therefore are unlikely to want to supply them either.

Given that, the only other current engine supplier in the field that might be a possible option would be Honda - however, unless Honda were able to improve their performance significantly, there would be little incentive for Red Bull to switch from Renault to Honda.

You forgot two other alternatives. I know they are not likely for next year, but could be to the year after if they really wanted it. A) Find a new supplier just like McLaren did or B) Build their own engine. For the A) it wouldn't be easy for them to lure anyone competent enough but Red Bull is a massive company and has the best designer on the grid. Plus they have knowledge on what went wrong with Renault. They could try to go to Audi/VW/Porsche or BMW. Mercedes is leading the way by a long shot and reaping the fame for trouncing other manufacturers in F1 (which is still important) and that could help to bring some major Mercedes rivals into F1. If not, there were also some rumors going around saying they were employing engine engineers. They were so vocal in the criticism to Renault that maybe it is time for them to put money where their mouth is. It could be the right opportunity for them to become full on racers.

It is true that they could look to draw in a new manufacturer, but one disadvantage with that is the engine development token system - remember, the token system will be tightened further in 2016 and 2017, so a new engine manufacturer would find themselves in an increasingly disadvantageous position as time wears on.

Furthermore, there are rumours that Red Bull had already tried to draw in the VW Group in the past, but Piech is known to be strongly opposed to Bernie and so, as long as one or the other is in charge, VW is quite unlikely to enter into F1.
I'm not sure who else might be interested in the new regulations either - BMW seem to have been rather cool about the idea and Toyota are uncomfortable with the high investment required (they're already complaining about the costs of competing in the WEC, and their program is still one of the cheapest entries in the WEC field), so I can't see any of the manufacturers more recently involved in F1 getting involved again.

I can't really think of any manufacturers expressing an interest in F1 - the deal between Honda and McLaren took a long time to come to fruition (in the order of three years), and that was with an engine partner who were already keen on re-entering the sport (having been involved with the original negotiations on the turbo engine format). How much harder might it be to draw in a new manufacturer who is only modestly interested or fairly neutral on the idea of entering F1?

As for building an engine themselves, that also seems unlikely - Red Bull's employed some engine specialists, but they are mostly working under Illen's direction, as he has been appointed to help Renault with their development program.
Marko has also indicated that Red Bull would not really afford the investment required to run both their own teams and their own engine manufacturing division too. Perhaps, at a stretch, they could outsource development to an independent like Cosworth, but even then it would still be a fairly sizeable drain on their resources.

[DanielPT]

It is true that they could look to draw in a new manufacturer, but one disadvantage with that is the engine development token system - remember, the token system will be tightened further in 2016 and 2017, so a new engine manufacturer would find themselves in an increasingly disadvantageous position as time wears on.

Furthermore, there are rumours that Red Bull had already tried to draw in the VW Group in the past, but Piech is known to be strongly opposed to Bernie and so, as long as one or the other is in charge, VW is quite unlikely to enter into F1.
I'm not sure who else might be interested in the new regulations either - BMW seem to have been rather cool about the idea and Toyota are uncomfortable with the high investment required (they're already complaining about the costs of competing in the WEC, and their program is still one of the cheapest entries in the WEC field), so I can't see any of the manufacturers more recently involved in F1 getting involved again.

I can't really think of any manufacturers expressing an interest in F1 - the deal between Honda and McLaren took a long time to come to fruition (in the order of three years), and that was with an engine partner who were already keen on re-entering the sport (having been involved with the original negotiations on the turbo engine format). How much harder might it be to draw in a new manufacturer who is only modestly interested or fairly neutral on the idea of entering F1?

As for building an engine themselves, that also seems unlikely - Red Bull's employed some engine specialists, but they are mostly working under Illen's direction, as he has been appointed to help Renault with their development program.
Marko has also indicated that Red Bull would not really afford the investment required to run both their own teams and their own engine manufacturing division too. Perhaps, at a stretch, they could outsource development to an independent like Cosworth, but even then it would still be a fairly sizeable drain on their resources.

It is true that the timing for a new manufacturer to enter the sport is closing but some kind of agreement can be struck like it was it Honda this year.

Still, despite all the seemingly closed door it is not like they can't do other than accept their slide to the midfield by staying with Renault or leaving the sport altogether. I am a firm believer that other way rather than accept your situation or give up can be found. If they cannot introduce the sport to other manufacturers (Hyundai was seemingly looking into sport) there is still other ideas. Honda doesn't look a decent proposition right now but next year they might look better and Honda didn't exclude supplying other teams different than McLaren. Or they could still bit the bullet and accept, just like their rivals, that they have to spend on an engine program instead of only spending in the team. I find the statement that "Red Bull would not really afford the investment required to run both their own teams and their own engine" just enraging and dishonest. They were, after all, involved in the recent escalation of costs in order to out spend their rivals, knowing fully well that they also had to fund their engines. Now that lost their little game they cannot afford the investment? Either they want to compete properly and go engine manufacturer (or arrange their own deal) or just leave. It is not like they can stay with Renault, giving the signs coming out of Viry-Châtillon is that they want to be back to being a full F1 team. If that is the case they will lose some of their privileges and end up even worse...

[Wallio]

Sell, Toro Rosso to Renault, and put the money into the Cossie. They were selling V8 engine naming rights for 5 million about 8 years ago, so just call it a "Red Bull" and be done with it.

[CoopsII]

I would have really watched F1 with Jaguar as it used to be before 2005, rather than Red Bull...

It was quite similar to watching Toyota. A bastard-load of money being spent on a regular basis with frak all to show for it. I never found it a Rejectfully worthwhile experience, merely embarrassing.

[Salamander]

I would have really watched F1 with Jaguar as it used to be before 2005, rather than Red Bull...

It was quite similar to watching Toyota. A bastard-load of money being spent on a regular basis with frak all to show for it. I never found it a Rejectfully worthwhile experience, merely embarrassing.

Arguably worse than Toyota, since they allowed Eddie Irvine to con them into him being Ford's 3rd highest paid employee.

[Wallio]

Jaguar also had the problem of cutting technical people like I change socks. In one of his books Steve Matchett mentions that the R2 or R3 (I forget which) changed every single body piece/areo part except the tub itself at least once. And that's not a tweak here or new winglet there, that is a totally new piece each time. Not even counting the "B-Spec" which was still a thing back then. They simply had no continuity and couldn't find the weaknesses in the car.

[CoopsII]

Arguably worse than Toyota, since they allowed Eddie Irvine to con them into him being Ford's 3rd highest paid employee.

I actually thought he was 2nd highest behind only CEO Jac Nasser? I do recall reading Nasser had to explain to the board who he was, because they'd never heard of him And, hey, there was no con, merely a bit o' Oirish charm and a WDC runners up position.

[Waris]

Sell, Toro Rosso to Renault, and put the money into the Cossie. They were selling V8 engine naming rights for 5 million about 8 years ago, so just call it a "Red Bull" and be done with it.

No, no, call it Gives You Wings! That would be perfect!

[Nuppiz]

Sell, Toro Rosso to Renault, and put the money into the Cossie. They were selling V8 engine naming rights for 5 million about 8 years ago, so just call it a "Red Bull" and be done with it.

No, no, call it Gives You Wings! That would be perfect!

Wings you say?

[Spectoremg]

Sell, Toro Rosso to Renault, and put the money into the Cossie. They were selling V8 engine naming rights for 5 million about 8 years ago, so just call it a "Red Bull" and be done with it.

No, no, call it Gives You Wings! That would be perfect!

Wings you say?

'Wings, the band The Beatles could have been' (Alan Partridge).

[Benetton]

Potential engine suppliers Red Bull could partner with?

- Ford (Cosworth)?
- Peugeot?
- BMW?

[dr-baker]

Potential engine suppliers Red Bull could partner with?

- Ford (Cosworth)?
- Peugeot?
- BMW?

PURE!

[Salamander]

Potential engine suppliers Red Bull could partner with?

- Ford (Cosworth)?
- Peugeot?
- BMW?

Toyota?
Porsche?
Lamborghini?
Yamaha?
Alfa Romeo?
Maserati?
Lancia?
Matra?
Judd?
Hart?
Subaru?
Zakspeed?
Coventry Climax?
Offenhauser?
Life?
...
Aud-- *explodes violently*

[FMecha]

Potential engine suppliers Red Bull could partner with?

- Ford (Cosworth)?
- Peugeot?
- BMW?

Toyota?
Porsche?
Lamborghini?
Yamaha?
Alfa Romeo?
Maserati?
Lancia?
Matra?
Judd?
Hart?
Subaru?
Zakspeed?
Coventry Climax?
Offenhauser?
Life?
...
Aud-- *explodes violently*

Nissan.
(cue GT Academy logos in the cars)

[watka]

Please, please, please Daihatsu.