Ponderbox

[Meatwad]

What other rock-paper-scissors driver sets are there besides Hill-Frentzen-Villeneuve?

Schumacher Herbert Irvine possibly

That would involve one of them beating Schumi though.

Irvine outscored Schumacher in 1999 by two points (only including the races where both were entered). Of course, this includes Silverstone where Schumi didn't take the restart after his crash and injury and Malaysia where he let Irvine through.

[dr-baker]

What other rock-paper-scissors driver sets are there besides Hill-Frentzen-Villeneuve?

Schumacher Herbert Irvine possibly

That would involve one of them beating Schumi though.

I think Irv the Swerve beat Schumi by default in both 1997 and 1999...

[UncreativeUsername37]

Both of you: you know that doesn't count. Not even you care.

[Klon]

That would involve one of them beating Schumi though.

Technically, Irvine finished ahead of Schumacher in the 99 WDC.

[CoopsII]

That would involve one of them beating Schumi though.

Technically, Irvine finished ahead of Schumacher in the 99 WDC.

There's no 'technically' about it. MSC finished, what was it, 4th or 5th?

[WeirdKerr]

What other rock-paper-scissors driver sets are there besides Hill-Frentzen-Villeneuve?

Schumacher Herbert Irvine possibly

That would involve one of them beating Schumi though.

ok replace Schumacher with Barrichello

[WeirdKerr]

Is Hulkenberg the first current F1 driver to win in like a while or possibly ever?

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Is Hulkenberg the first current F1 driver to win in like a while or possibly ever?

I assume you're talking about Le Mans, in which case he's the first to do it since Johnny Herbert and Bertrand Gachot in 1991, not counting Lotterer last year and Yannick Dalmas in 1994, both of whom were not active in F1 at the time of winning Le Mans but raced in F1 later on in the season.

[novitopoli]

Is Hulkenberg the first current F1 driver to win in like a while or possibly ever?

I assume you're talking about Le Mans, in which case he's the first to do it since Johnny Herbert and Bertrand Gachot in 1991, not counting Lotterer last year and Yannick Dalmas in 1994, both of whom were not active in F1 at the time of winning Le Mans but raced in F1 later on in the season.

And possibly the first to race a complete F1 schedule since Didier Pironi in 1978, given that both Herbert and Gachot missed some races that year - Herbert replaced Julian Bailey at Lotus after four races and missed some other weekend due to other racing commitments, while Gachot somehow found a pretty uncommon way to change the history of this sport.

[DemocalypseNow]

And possibly the first to race a complete F1 schedule since Didier Pironi in 1978

Now you'll have gone and jinxed it! Soon we'll be reading Nico has been sidelined with a case of fiscus absentia.

[WeirdKerr]

And possibly the first to race a complete F1 schedule since Didier Pironi in 1978

Now you'll have gone and jinxed it! Soon we'll be reading Nico has been sidelined with a case of fiscus absentia.

And then Williams would probably run Adrian Sutil

[Londoner]

I've been considering my support for F1 over the last few days, in regard to other series. It's no secret that I'm rather disillusioned with the sport (and have been since about October 2014), but I'm wondering, would I be as disillusioned if I hadn't starting following other motorsport series over the last few years, such as BTCC and IndyCar?

I pose this question to myself as I've been watching F1 for some 16 years now, and watched through some spectacularly boring seasons (2002, 2004, 2005 all come to mind), yet as a 7-10 year old, I was still mesmerised by the action and the aura of F1, no matter how poor the on-track action was. Besides the odd V8 Supercars, ChampCar or NASCAR Busch Series race being shown on Motors TV in the mid-2000s, F1 was the only series I followed closely. This was the case all the way up to mid-2012, where I started watching GP2 and BTCC on a regular basis, and since then the amount of series I watch has grown exponentially. I make no secret that I feel BTCC and IndyCar have far superior on-track products at present, but that neither series is without faults. Both are spec series to an extent (the current NGTC formula means a ton of spec parts are used in the BTCC), and neither have the prestige they enjoyed in the 1990s. IndyCar could do with far better TV deals, a season which doesn't end in AUGUST, and more parity between Chevrolet and Honda, yet both series have an aura of excitement and unpredictability, which F1 is sorely lacking this year. In a straight fight, Hamilton will easily beat Rosberg, and Mercedes will easily beat Ferrari.

I guess, when it boils down, if I only followed F1, I would probably still be fairly disillusioned with F1 (the Bianchi accident and sudden implosion of Caterham and Marussia killed my interest in F1 last year, and I've been struggling to be enthusiastic about this season), but I would probably enjoy the on-track product that F1's put out this season a lot more if I wasn't following other series. Don't get me wrong, I thought 2014 was a cracking season before the events of lap 43 of Suzuka and the post-Sochi implosion, even with BTCC and IndyCar seasons where 22 different drivers took victory (11 in both series) in 2014. Perhaps it's an age thing, I watched F1 in the mid-2000s as a young child just about to turn 10, not as a cynical 20 year old student with access to social media.

Apologies if this reads like the inane ramblings of a 20 year old dunce (mainly because it is), but I'm just trying to make sense of why I'm finding F1 2015 a worse prospect than 2002 or 2004.

[Rob Dylan]

And possibly the first to race a complete F1 schedule since Didier Pironi in 1978

Now you'll have gone and jinxed it! Soon we'll be reading Nico has been sidelined with a case of fiscus absentia.

And then Williams would probably run Adrian Sutil

And then Honda announce that their return to the sport was only as a gateway for the glorious return of Takuma Sato. Button/Alonso out --> Sato/Ide in.

[CoopsII]

Apologies if this reads like the inane ramblings of a 20 year old dunce (mainly because it is), but I'm just trying to make sense of why I'm finding F1 2015 a worse prospect than 2002 or 2004.

Perhaps it's because you're neither 7 years old nor 9.

I watched the BBCs lovely F1 Rewind the other week which featured three races which they felt were the best of Senna (I phrase it that way as its a subjective matter, I think). The footage of '92 Monaco and '93 Donnington made me feel funny in my tummy as those were the days when I lived and breathed F1, prior to that I watched it but often got distracted by things like Discworld novels, Super Mario Kart or Iron Maiden albums. In those heady days of being, well, your age EL, F1 had a sparkly feeling that multiple years of viewing have eroded away. I still enjoy F1 and I could pick out several great races and iconic moments since then but nothing will ever give me back those moments from then.

I think everyone harkens for ye olden days because it reminds them of youth, newness and being excited at experiencing something that hadn't experienced before.

Just noticed my post is in no way connected to the questions you're posing Sorry about that

[Salamander]

Part of the issue with F1 is how horrifically negative everyone is. The drivers are miserable, the teams are miserable, the FIA is miserable, Bernie is miserable, the journalists are miserable, and the fans are miserable.

Sure, there's a lot of negativity in IndyCar, BTCC, and NASCAR, but you don't see anyone in the actual series management actually tearing chunks out of the series. And then you look at FE, where everyone is optimistic, where it's surpassing (certainly my) expectations in terms of the racing and fan following...

[Collieafc]

Part of the issue with F1 is how horrifically negative everyone is. The drivers are miserable, the teams are miserable, the FIA is miserable, Bernie is miserable, the journalists are miserable, and the fans are miserable.

Sure, there's a lot of negativity in IndyCar, BTCC, and NASCAR, but you don't see anyone in the actual series management actually tearing chunks out of the series. And then you look at FE, where everyone is optimistic, where it's surpassing (certainly my) expectations in terms of the racing and fan following...

It may be partly because there the feeling of there is little to get excited about. We all got hyped up about how last years changes would right most wrongs when in fact it may have done the opposite - drivers still drive to the pitwall and Alonso's rant only confirmed what fans suspected - Drivers are being discouraged from racing. The next lot of rule changes (Assuming they fix anything) are not for 18 months away, which could easily mean another year of the current Fomula Scalextric. Current teams cant agree on anything and appear more self-serving than ever. Fans feel they are being flat-out ignored and the "sport" is out of touch with the fans (Double points, persistence with staying with Pirelli etc), but at the same time opinion is divided (Just look at the suggestion of refuelling and the opinion split). The sport is increasingly inaccessible, businesslike and predictable - it exists as a business, entertainment and sport is merely a by-product. The fact that grey and white are the most common team colours, well, yeah...

Compare Formula E where the irony of "poorer quality" (Dare I say...reject?) drivers is making the sport more interesting because you get silly mistakes and unreliability to throw spanners in the works. Plus everyone knows FE is starting out and know that any problems are likely to get fixed for next season. There just seems to be the aura that things will get done for the good of the sport, even if that means compromising. F1 just doesnt have that feeling.

(End rant)

[Nuppiz]

Well, I don't even watch F1 anymore if I'm alone. I only watch it with my parents, because it's something of a tradition. Current F1 is just way too restrictive, and dare I say "professional" to be appealing to me anymore. The fun aspect is long gone, and I don't want to waste 4-5 hours of a perfectly good weekend watching something that isn't fun. Meanwhile other motorsport coverage here (besides pay channels) is very restricted (pretty much just WRC which is equally as boring), and I hate watching stuff from a computer monitor.

[DemocalypseNow]

Well, I don't even watch F1 anymore if I'm alone. I only watch it with my parents, because it's something of a tradition. Current F1 is just way too restrictive, and dare I say "professional" to be appealing to me anymore. The fun aspect is long gone, and I don't want to waste 4-5 hours of a perfectly good weekend watching something that isn't fun. Meanwhile other motorsport coverage here (besides pay channels) is very restricted (pretty much just WRC which is equally as boring), and I hate watching stuff from a computer monitor.

I think this could be part of the reason people were so enthused about LM24 in comparison to F1 this year. With increased professionalism comes reduced failure rates, and so an extremely long duration event like the LM24 is becoming one of the few ways for cars to have longevity-influenced reliability problems. But even then, the race winning #19 did not have a single issue in any way shape or form for the entire 24 hours. Even the race where once it was simply a case of attrition to decide the winner, has become a race where a single small mistake can be the difference between winning and losing.

Human error is the difference between winning and losing, and as ever more accurate automation trickles into the process, the error rate reduces, and with it goes the possibility of variation. Why is a football contest never completely predictable? Because the only real factors are the 22 human beings on the pitch, and the other 2 human beings on the sideline orchestrating them. There is still a wide scope for imperfection. Formula 1 is a sport where technology is such a huge influence, that once it reaches a point where said technology has reached a near perfect state, the margins left to play with are very small and yet still require the same level of effort. The last 1% is as difficult as the first 99%.

Forcing teams to innovate an explore new, untested, uncharted areas of technology is the only way to increase failure and mistake rate. But innovation is costly. In a sense, the very strict rules about what can and cannot be done are the issue. Teams looking to win the world championship will always throw huge money at making the best car possible, and when the technical regulations are so strict about what can and cannot be done, design concepts reach near perfection, and the huge budgets are deployed on refining the smallest details, rather than just getting the overall package to work at a basic level.

We keep saying that unlimited budgets are causing the sport to die, but I refuse to believe it. The sport has been this way for a very long time. The field spread is as small as it's ever been, even when the gap in budgets between manufacturers and small privateers widens.

I think to call F1 too restrictive is hitting the nail on the head. The ACO has a set of rules that allows for many different combinations of powertrain and aerodynamics. Look at how diverse the LMP1 field was! Yes, the race in the end came down to just Porsche vs Audi, but just a year ago it was Toyota on top. Sure, these manufacturers have big budgets, but at least the freedom to innovate to a wider scope means the order is shaken up more regularly.

[AndreaModa]

I think there's far too much negativity and navel-gazing. I had a thought that perhaps it's a reflection of wider society - that as things get progressively more sh*t - in the UK for example, disillusionment with cuts, austerity, etc, then people turn to sport to cheer them up and when faced with a product that is perhaps below average (and certainly made to feel that way by the media) then we just end up feeling more sh*t.

But I still enjoy F1, I'm often tied up meaning I have to catch the race on iplayer or whatever, but I still enjoy the races. Stuff like Massa's pass on Ericsson in Canada - the sort of thing where you can really appreciate the skill of the driver.

I often think of the Isle of Man TT. If we applied what we're saying about F1 to the TT, you'd wonder why thousands flock to the island every year. They do so to appreciate the raw speed of bikes doing 180mph on public roads, not close racing and overtakes. Stuff like Bruce Anstey pushing things so far that he almost has a huge accident at the top of Bray Hill as he clips a kerb, or Ian Hutchinson on his final lap, in the lead, running wide onto the pavement, inches away from a grass bank.

That sort of stuff sticks in the memory, it makes legend. Massa's pass on Ericsson might not be of the same calibre, but you can't have it all. You need to look at the details, appreciate the small things. Be thankful that we have a racing series to sit down and watch if we want to. The effort you put into something is directly related to what you'll get out of it. If all you can do is say "meh" and shrug your shoulders, you've already lost. If you look for something you'll find it, and if you want to believe that F1 is broken, or crap, or boring, then you will. No amount of pontificating, and navel gazing will change that. Either start putting the effort in or piss off is what I'm starting to think. Fed up of all this namby pamby crap about "meh I just can't be bothered with F1 anymore..."

[Spectoremg]

I love really long posts.

[dinizintheoven]

Perhaps it's an age thing, I watched F1 in the mid-2000s as a young child just about to turn 10, not as a cynical 20 year old student with access to social media.

Just you wait until you're marching towards 40 at what seems like an ever-quickening pace...

[DanielPT]

Perhaps it's an age thing, I watched F1 in the mid-2000s as a young child just about to turn 10, not as a cynical 20 year old student with access to social media.

Just you wait until you're marching towards 40 at what seems like an ever-quickening pace...

It doesn't seem. It is. The longer you live, the quicker a minute goes by.

Anyway, a lot of negativity in this thread. Nothing surprising really. Posting in the Paul Stoddart forum has been dwindling all the time. This general malaise from which pretty much all of us are being affected is not because of age or because things aren't like our perceived golden era, or even the racing these days which is not as bad as it is made to look but because of what F1 as a whole has become. A sanitized environment where surprises rarely come by. It is a product of not only the safety and health brigade but also the ever fiddling powers that be in instituting gimmicks in name of a false show in order to maintain a status quo. No one likes drivers to get hurt or die but the quest of bringing us to this point has a trade-off. It always had to be. Cars have been slowing down for a while and look to be as easy and predictable to drive as ever and technological progress now seems to happen elsewhere because of all the rules that reduce creativity freedom and potentially nasty innovations. Development is restricted also in name of cost control but the teams spend the money anyway in search of the final tenth of a second. Meanwhile the technology became so specialized, expensive and inaccessible that only mega rich and bored or crazy people consider joining the circus and thus prevent bringing more fresh blood and views into a closed and elitist environment. Not to mention the decision to go with an ever changing product into pay per view that obviously fails to attract new fans while the older only get more disillusioned. This malaise and general state that affects all of us (or most) is not one that is easily fixable by a gimmick or even a rule change like the 2014 changes. It needs more profound reforms. It needs for everything to change.

[WeirdKerr]

Perhaps it's an age thing, I watched F1 in the mid-2000s as a young child just about to turn 10, not as a cynical 20 year old student with access to social media.

Just you wait until you're marching towards 40 at what seems like an ever-quickening pace...

The other side of 40 is not as bad as it seems....

[tommykl]

I think the current state of F1 (my opinion hasn't changed much since my ROTY post last year) is unsustainable, as do most people, and I think that F1 currently has its head so far up its own arse that it can't be undone.

For Formula One to recover and keep going, it needs to collapse on itself one way or another before starting fresh. Endless tinkering with the existing system won't help if the system itself is fundamentally flawed.

[Salamander]

Maybe we should re-brand ourselves FE Rejects...

[DemocalypseNow]

Maybe we should re-brand ourselves FE Rejects...

Depending on results, that would mean there are three drivers who are both F1 Rejects and FE Rejects! The drivers in question? Stéphane Sarrazin, Vitantonio Liuzzi and Justin Wilson. Charles Pic is arguably a Lucky Bastard, without his 4th place in the season opener he is a fair bit off unrejectification in FE.

In terms of FE Rejects alone, Jarno Trulli would surely score an undisputed first place in the Lucky Bastard Award. 4th place at Punta del Este, and no other Top 10s all season! Either Trulli himself, or his Trulli GP team, are the obvious slam dunk for ROTY in Formula E's debut season.

[UncreativeUsername37]

Maybe we should re-brand ourselves FE Rejects...

The rejects of a series of F1 rejects! It couldn't get more rejectful. Imagine the profile depth!

[dinizintheoven]

...and so the whole motorsport world collapsed in on itself like a black hole, due to the sheer concentrated rejectfulness.

All we need now is for Ernesto Vita to come out of retirement, form Life Racing Batteries, use the freer future Formula E rules as a way to showcase his revolutionary power unit (later shown to be a Daniell cell copied from a school chemistry textbook), and for him to recruit Yuji Ide and James May as the drivers.

[MorbidelliObese]

According to Google Translate, "mon étron" in French = "my turd" in English. Is this a coincidence or was Jean-Pierre van Rossem taking the piss out of us all along?

[Bobby Doorknobs]

According to Google Translate, "mon étron" in French = "my turd" in English. Is this a coincidence or was Jean-Pierre van Rossem taking the piss out of us all along?

Well he was taking the piss regardless:

The Moneytron was supposed to be a super computer able to predict economic fluctuations, and the access to its room was strictly forbidden, behind a closed door in Van Rossem's office. When he was imprisoned, a Belgian TV-team interviewed a cleaning lady about this famous room, she answered it was just the broom closet.

[Nessafox]

According to Google Translate, "mon étron" in French = "my turd" in English. Is this a coincidence or was Jean-Pierre van Rossem taking the piss out of us all along?

Well he was taking the piss regardless:

The Moneytron was supposed to be a super computer able to predict economic fluctuations, and the access to its room was strictly forbidden, behind a closed door in Van Rossem's office. When he was imprisoned, a Belgian TV-team interviewed a cleaning lady about this famous room, she answered it was just the broom closet.

It is rumoured that he did actually pay out the less-budgetted customers, and mostly intended to troll rich customers.

[Nessafox]

A few days ago, i returned to the famous country of Luxembourg (for a punkrock show). A few things i found weird, confirming the controversy and mystery of this country.
1) The capital city looks like a high-security prison, with ridiculous fences everywhere.
2) My phone clock got changed to the British time zone without me even touching it.
3) Apparently, rumour had it that one of the bands i saw (Lagwagon) cancelled, altough they actually just played as originally planned. The cancellation seems to be confirmed by some attendants of the show. Some strange things going on there.
4) Fat mike in a dress.This wasn't a surprise, as nofx is known for their trolling, it just shows that this country does weird things to the minds of everyone.
5) No people on the street except for people attending the concert and some immigrants in a shady street we accidentally walked trough.

This is obviously not just a conspiracy, as it confirms strange things are going on over there.

[Aguaman]

Watched the Australian Story on Mark Webber on ABC. It is interesting to see that Webber got along with Seb but the team was the issue. Would have liked it to be longer and including more on Red Bull, Jaguar and Williams and Flavio but solid.

[Gerudo Dragon]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

[Miguel98]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBPBrJ74C8I

[Bobby Doorknobs]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

I'm Irish, he's English, so naturally I have to hate him

[Nuppiz]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

Because every time he is not leading the race comfortably he's crying like a three-year-old kid to the team radio and nearly giving in until his engineer tells him to man up and race?

[Salamander]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

Because every time he is not leading the race comfortably he's crying like a three-year-old kid to the team radio and nearly giving in until his engineer tells him to man up and race?

That and the usual over-hyping you get from the British media, which is on the verge of causing me to puke most weekends.

[Aguaman]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

People hate the stuff around Lewis like the British pumping him up. THey pump him up more than Murray now I feel.

[CoopsII]

noob question:
why does everyone hate hamilton

Not everyone hates Hamilton. If you go back a while a similar question would've been 'why does everyone hate Vettel?'. Or 'why does everyone hate Schumacher?'. Or..

Well, you get the general idea and perhaps the running theme is becoming predictably apparent.