Bahrain GP Race Discussion

[thehemogoblin]

Also, how much leeway would the FIA give on the three-lap rule? Anyone? I don't think this one has ever come up before.

[PWNSNBM]

Courtesy of Autosport.com:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Alonso Ferrari 1:54.099 14
2. Rosberg Mercedes 1:54.368 + 0.269 13
3. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:54.500 + 0.401 15
4. Schumacher Mercedes 1:54.533 + 0.434 13
5. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:54.646 + 0.547 16
6. Massa Ferrari 1:54.739 + 0.640 14
7. Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:55.000 + 0.901 14
8. Kubica Renault 1:55.331 + 1.232 15
9. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 1:55.432 + 1.333 11
10. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1:55.461 + 1.362 13
11. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:55.521 + 1.422 13
12. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:55.860 + 1.761 8
13. de la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari 1:56.063 + 1.964 14
14. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1:56.259 + 2.160 15
15. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:56.295 + 2.196 17
16. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:56.504 + 2.405 16
17. Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1:56.530 + 2.431 13
18. Petrov Renault 1:56.811 + 2.712 16
19. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1:59.173 + 5.074 10
20. Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1:59.789 + 5.690 15
21. Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 2:01.259 + 7.160 5
22. Senna HRT-Cosworth 2:04.001 + 9.902 11
23. di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 2
24. Chandhok HRT-Cosworth

All Timing Unofficial

Just over half an hour before QUALIFYING 2010 BEGINS!

In the meantime, Practice 3 timesheets to mull over.

[PWNSNBM]

Done with my mulling... top-10 times from Bahrain Practice, all from the last session:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Alonso Ferrari 1:54.099 14
2. Rosberg Mercedes 1:54.368 + 0.269 13
3. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:54.500 + 0.401 15
4. Schumacher Mercedes 1:54.533 + 0.434 13
5. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:54.646 + 0.547 16
6. Massa Ferrari 1:54.739 + 0.640 14
7. Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:55.000 + 0.901 14
8. Kubica Renault 1:55.331 + 1.232 15
9. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 1:55.432 + 1.333 11
10. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1:55.461 + 1.362 13

So, 2 Ferraris, 2 Mercedes & 2 Red Bulls in the top 6.
And then things get interesting.

On a sadder note, poor Karen.

[Paul Hayes]

Very interesting results across the practice sessions. Probably no great surprise only one Hispania car is going to make it, but I cannot wait for qualifying - it's very unpredictable who's going to make pole!

[PWNSNBM]

Gentlemen, given the dire circumstances of HRT, i believe a prayer is in order:

Lord?
Please give Senna Jr the strength to make Hormone Replacement Therapy work for him.
And please help the team make it to at least the 2nd race.
Amen.

[thehemogoblin]

... and it begins.

[shinji]

I'm so excited that I just can't hide it.

[CarlosFerreira]

Yeah, go!!!

sorry

[shinji]

Chandhok's first lap - 2:21:793

[CarlosFerreira]

Chandhok's first lap - 2:21:793

The F1 let him race. Fair game on them.

[shinji]

Chandhok's first lap - 2:21:793

The F1 let him race. Fair game on them.

He's made up 17 seconds in 4 laps. Impressive.

[CarlosFerreira]

Kobayashi is the drop man with 2 minutes to go. Surprising.

[watka]

Kobayashi is the drop man with 2 minutes to go. Surprising.

He's survived thanks goodness, Cpt Hammer would have had a field day. I'm impressed by Petrov and Sutil so far.

[Warren Hughes]

Sauber's pace is a real worry, both Kobayashi and De La Rosa struggled to get through. On a totally different note, what's happened to the graphic on the left hand side which shows the order? I miss it already.

[CarlosFerreira]

Sauber struggling to demote Alguersuari. A sing of things to come in the bottom?

Again, Glock beats the Loti. Excellent effort - and am I right in assuming he has been the only of the new-team's drivers to go around in less than 2 minutes the weekend so far?

[tristan1117]

Speed coverage just pointed out that Chandok is the first person to be 10 seconds off the pace in qualifying since... MasterCard Lola! 107% rule, Anybody?

[Warren Hughes]

Bit hairy for Button. Great session for Kubica and Sutil though!

[shinji]

Woe is Cowboy.

[watka]

Kobayashi is the drop man with 2 minutes to go. Surprising.

He's survived thanks goodness, Cpt Hammer would have had a field day. I'm impressed by Petrov and Sutil so far.

Petrov just got pwned by 1.7 seconds by Kubica. I take back what I said above.

[Warren Hughes]

Chandhok: 'we just wanted to check that the gears went up and down'

Decent performance by Karun, respectable when compared to Senna, given that this was the first time he's driven the car.

[Mister Fungus]

Is anyone else disappointed with new graphics? We got much much more information last year, now I have no idea what's going on and my PC is in another room so I don't want to jump to live timing all the time.

[CarlosFerreira]

Ferrari dropping the gauntlet.

Top marks for Kubica, though.

[TomWazzleshaw]

And Vettel pulls out another stunner to go straight to pole position for tomorrow's GP

[Phoenix]

Qualifying finished. Vettel gets the pole, Kubica and Sutil impressed, Schumacher struggling to keep up with Rosberg, Kobayashi only 16th , Alguersuari out with the minnows, Chandhok quite impressive as well.

[Tealy]

Is anyone else disappointed with new graphics? We got much much more information last year, now I have no idea what's going on and my PC is in another room so I don't want to jump to live timing all the time.

I feel uninformed with the new graphics to be honest. May need to grab a laptop to sit next to me for the race.

[Phoenix]

Is anyone else disappointed with new graphics? We got much much more information last year, now I have no idea what's going on and my PC is in another room so I don't want to jump to live timing all the time.

I feel uninformed with the new graphics to be honest. May need to grab a laptop to sit next to me for the race.

I wasn't putting much attention into those new charts, but I think the table with positions was missing. Or wasn't I putting attention to the top left of the screen?

[CarlosFerreira]

Qualifying finished. Vettel gets the pole, Kubica and Sutil impressed, Schumacher struggling to keep up with Rosberg, Kobayashi only 16th , Alguersuari out with the minnows, Chandhok quite impressive as well.

Merc not that great, Red Bull and Ferrari in front. Actually, make that Vettel and Ferrari in front.

Was everyone on the same tyre? Massa giving Alonso 4 tenths (great to have Felipe back and in gear after the trouble last year), Merc 1 sec off the pace, Hamilton 4 tenths quicked than Button again, Sutil (I heard) on the hard rubber - makes sense. Oh boy, this looks awesome!

[Klon]

Was everyone on the same tyre? Massa giving Alonso 4 tenths (great to have Felipe back and in gear after the trouble last year), Merc 1 sec off the pace, Hamilton 4 tenths quicked than Button again, Sutil (I heard) on the hard rubber - makes sense. Oh boy, this looks awesome!

With the sole exception of Adrian Sutil, everyone went on soft tyres. This may or may not prove to be a critical mistake tomorrow.

[noisebox]

Was everyone on the same tyre? Massa giving Alonso 4 tenths (great to have Felipe back and in gear after the trouble last year), Merc 1 sec off the pace, Hamilton 4 tenths quicked than Button again, Sutil (I heard) on the hard rubber - makes sense. Oh boy, this looks awesome!

With the sole exception of Adrian Sutil, everyone went on soft tyres. This may or may not prove to be a critical mistake tomorrow.

Sutil and Barrichello could well be jokers tomorrow. Tough afternoon coming up for Schumacher and Button though. It will all come down to which car is easiest on it's tyres. The winner is still very hard to call, but I think Alonso may take it.

[eytl]

Some of the gaps are incredible. Massa 0.4s over Alonso? Vettel 0.5s over Alonso, and 1.1s over Hamilton in 4th? Blimey ...

Or could it be that everyone from Alonso down has changed to a compromise set-up between Q2 and Q3 to accommodate full tanks, whereas Vettel and Massa have just stuck with low-fuel trim to go for quali glory? Their times are close to the best all weekend at the end of Q2. Alonso where he is, and the bunch of guys on 1min 55.2s (Hamilton, Rosberg, Webber) suggests compromised set-ups to me.

(I'm assuming that the way it works is that anyone eliminated in Q1 and Q2 can make set-up changes plus choose their starting compound, and then wheel their cars to parc ferme. Whereas people in Q3 drive straight into parc ferme at the end of qualifying, so not only do they start the race on the same set of tyres, but also on the same set-up. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

McLaren's non-pace is a surprise. Schumi's turning out to be a major anti-climax (the coverage didn't follow a single one of his quali laps!), although Rosberg's always been strong in Bahrain. Kubica and Sutil are pleasant surprises. Sauber a bit disappointing. Glock out-pacing the Lotuses, and di Grassi close to Kovalainen - Virgin's pace is a bit unexpected. And can I suggest that for Chandhok to get within 1.7s of Senna despite not having driven the car before quali is actually a terrific effort.

[tristan1117]

Is anyone else disappointed with new graphics? We got much much more information last year, now I have no idea what's going on and my PC is in another room so I don't want to jump to live timing all the time.

Agreed, they took away the graphic that was so useful in qualifying (the one with all the drivers names on it) and I didn't know what was going on the whole session until the end. They don't have the track graphic either that shows where certain things are happening and where the drivers are on the track. Very disappointing.

[Jack O Malley]

Or could it be that everyone from Alonso down has changed to a compromise set-up between Q2 and Q3 to accommodate full tanks, whereas Vettel and Massa have just stuck with low-fuel trim to go for quali glory? Their times are close to the best all weekend at the end of Q2. Alonso where he is, and the bunch of guys on 1min 55.2s (Hamilton, Rosberg, Webber) suggests compromised set-ups to me.

I think that too. And Sutil's gamble with hard tyres may be a good strategy...

[PWNSNBM]

Courtesy of BBC:

BAHRAIN Qualifying
Saturday, 13 March 2010

Pos Driver Team
--------------------------
1 VET Red Bull
2 MAS Ferrari
3 ALO Ferrari
4 HAM McLaren
5 ROS Mercedes
6 WEB Red Bull
--------------------------
7 SHC Mercedes
8 BUT McLaren
9 KUB Renault
10 SUT Force India
--------------------------
11 BAR Williams
12 LIU Force India
13 HUL Williams
14 DLR BMW Sauber
15 BUE Toro Rosso
16 KOB BMW Sauber
17 PET Renault
18 ALG Toro Rosso
--------------------------
19 GLO Virgin
20 TRU Lotus F1
21 KOV Lotus F1
22 GRA Virgin
23 SEN HRT
24 CHA HRT

Karen for early consideration as IIDOTR - emphasis on "infinite improbability" that he actually got to drive!

[CarlosFerreira]

Or could it be that everyone from Alonso down has changed to a compromise set-up between Q2 and Q3 to accommodate full tanks, whereas Vettel and Massa have just stuck with low-fuel trim to go for quali glory? Their times are close to the best all weekend at the end of Q2. Alonso where he is, and the bunch of guys on 1min 55.2s (Hamilton, Rosberg, Webber) suggests compromised set-ups to me.

(I'm assuming that the way it works is that anyone eliminated in Q1 and Q2 can make set-up changes plus choose their starting compound, and then wheel their cars to parc ferme. Whereas people in Q3 drive straight into parc ferme at the end of qualifying, so not only do they start the race on the same set of tyres, but also on the same set-up. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Ah, I was assuming it was parc-ferme from the moment qualy started. They can change setups between Q2 and Q3? That could explain it.

Fair game on Chandhok indeed.

[eytl]

Or could it be that everyone from Alonso down has changed to a compromise set-up between Q2 and Q3 to accommodate full tanks, whereas Vettel and Massa have just stuck with low-fuel trim to go for quali glory? Their times are close to the best all weekend at the end of Q2. Alonso where he is, and the bunch of guys on 1min 55.2s (Hamilton, Rosberg, Webber) suggests compromised set-ups to me.

(I'm assuming that the way it works is that anyone eliminated in Q1 and Q2 can make set-up changes plus choose their starting compound, and then wheel their cars to parc ferme. Whereas people in Q3 drive straight into parc ferme at the end of qualifying, so not only do they start the race on the same set of tyres, but also on the same set-up. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Ah, I was assuming it was parc-ferme from the moment qualy started. They can change setups between Q2 and Q3? That could explain it.

Well, I'm looking at the official F1 website, and I'm getting confused. Firstly, this is the summarised version of the parc ferme regulations:

Parc ferme is an enclosed and secure area in the paddock where the cars are weighed and any other checks deemed necessary by race officials are made. Teams must leave their cars here from within three and a half hours of the end of the qualifying on Saturday until five hours before the start of the formation lap on Sunday.

However, the cars are deemed to be under parc ferme conditions for a much longer period - from the time they first exit the pits during qualifying until the start of the formation lap immediately prior to the race.

Under these conditions, the work teams may carry out on their cars is limited to strictly-specified routine procedures, which can only be performed under the watchful eye of the FIA Technical Delegate and race scrutineers. Fuel may be added to the cars, tyres changed and brakes bled. Minor front wing adjustments are also allowed, but little else. These controls mean that teams cannot make significant alterations to the set-up of a car between qualifying and the race.

But this from the actual regulations (relevant parts only):

34) POST QUALIFYING PARC FERME

34.1 Each car will be deemed to be in parc ferme from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc ferme at the end of Q1.

Between these times, other than when cars are returned to the parc ferme overnight, the following work may be carried out [only relevant items quoted by eytl]:
- wheels and tyres may be removed, changed or rebalanced and tyre pressures checked ;
- fluids with a specific gravity less than 1.1 may be drained and/or replenished, however, fluids used for replenishment must conform to the same specification as the original fluid ;
- the aerodynamic set up of the front wing may be adjusted using the existing parts. No parts may be added, removed or replaced ;

34.3 Within three and a half hours of the end of the qualifying practice session all cars used during the session (or which were intended for use but failed to leave the pit lane) must be covered and ready for FIA seals to be applied in order to ensure that they remain secure until the following day. For marketing purposes this deadline may be extended for one car from each competitor for a maximum of two hours by prior arrangement with the FIA technical delegate. However, no work of any kind may be carried out on the car any later than three and a half hours after the end of the qualifying practice session.
Whilst cars are covered overnight they may be fitted with devices to keep them warm.

I'm just under the impression that at the end of Q3, instead of driving back to the pits, the cars go straight into parc ferme area. At the end of Q1 and Q2, drivers return to the pits (and rightly so too - a driver who is eliminated but who, say, did his final run early would not know that he will be eliminated whilst returning into pit lane, and so would go to his pits hoping that he will run in the next segment). I'm assuming teams can then make set-up changes, choose tyre compounds, then wheel the car to pit lane. However, the fact that parc ferme conditions start at the beginning of quali, and cars are only sealed 3.5 hrs after quali, makes me wonder whether further set-up changes can be made on Q3 cars after quali???

Then again, these regulations are out of date in that it doesn't accommodate the fact that Q3 runners can't change their tyres after Q3, within those 3.5 hrs before the cars are sealed.

So I'm just thoroughly confused. But I still believe the times for the guys from 3rd back reflect compromised set-ups.

[CarlosFerreira]

I'm just under the impression that at the end of Q3, instead of driving back to the pits, the cars go straight into parc ferme area. At the end of Q1 and Q2, drivers return to the pits (and rightly so too - a driver who is eliminated but who, say, did his final run early would not know that he will be eliminated whilst returning into pit lane, and so would go to his pits hoping that he will run in the next segment). I'm assuming teams can then make set-up changes, choose tyre compounds, then wheel the car to pit lane. However, the fact that parc ferme conditions start at the beginning of quali, and cars are only sealed 3.5 hrs after quali, makes me wonder whether further set-up changes can be made on Q3 cars after quali???

Then again, these regulations are out of date in that it doesn't accommodate the fact that Q3 runners can't change their tyres after Q3, within those 3.5 hrs before the cars are sealed.

So I'm just thoroughly confused. But I still believe the times for the guys from 3rd back reflect compromised set-ups.

Although I agree with you, you have to ask just how much can the team change in the car's setup in the 4 or 5 minutes between sessions. Ride height and suspension settings are probably out, right?

[eytl]

Alternatively, the simple explanation could be that Red Bull and Ferrari are simply way ahead of McLaren and Mercedes, Vettel and Massa put in fine laps, Alonso made a small error, and Webber screwed up completely and I'm just trying to find patriotic excuses to explain his dud time ...

[CarlosFerreira]

Alternatively, the simple explanation could be that Red Bull and Ferrari are simply way ahead of McLaren and Mercedes, Vettel and Massa put in fine laps, Alonso made a small error, and Webber screwed up completely and I'm just trying to find patriotic excuses to explain his dud time ...

Answers in the back of a postcard, to the usual address. Before tomorrow's race, please.

[Paul Hayes]

Or could it be that everyone from Alonso down has changed to a compromise set-up between Q2 and Q3 to accommodate full tanks, whereas Vettel and Massa have just stuck with low-fuel trim to go for quali glory? Their times are close to the best all weekend at the end of Q2. Alonso where he is, and the bunch of guys on 1min 55.2s (Hamilton, Rosberg, Webber) suggests compromised set-ups to me.

I think that too. And Sutil's gamble with hard tyres may be a good strategy...

It's interesting isn't it? He and Barrichello may well make some good progress up the points tomorrow.

[mario]

I'm just under the impression that at the end of Q3, instead of driving back to the pits, the cars go straight into parc ferme area. At the end of Q1 and Q2, drivers return to the pits (and rightly so too - a driver who is eliminated but who, say, did his final run early would not know that he will be eliminated whilst returning into pit lane, and so would go to his pits hoping that he will run in the next segment). I'm assuming teams can then make set-up changes, choose tyre compounds, then wheel the car to pit lane. However, the fact that parc ferme conditions start at the beginning of quali, and cars are only sealed 3.5 hrs after quali, makes me wonder whether further set-up changes can be made on Q3 cars after quali???

Then again, these regulations are out of date in that it doesn't accommodate the fact that Q3 runners can't change their tyres after Q3, within those 3.5 hrs before the cars are sealed.

So I'm just thoroughly confused. But I still believe the times for the guys from 3rd back reflect compromised set-ups.

My understanding is as follows. Once the session starts, the car is effectively in park ferme. However, the 3.5 hours allows for the teams to inspect the cars, top up the fluids (e.g. the hydraulic systems, the oil and pneumatic systems etc.), and, if necessary, they can carry out small repairs (e.g. if a panel has come loose or cracked, or a sensor is not working properly), replace loose safety padding and so forth. Sometimes the repairs can be quite extensive - the list of new parts the Jaime needed after his accident as Suzuka was pretty substantial.

For example, at Monza in 2008, when Hamilton had problems with his brakes due to the surface glazing over (since the brake ducts were too large, and they couldn't heat the brakes up properly). After the qualifying session, Mclaren were able to go into park ferme and file the surface of the disk, to remove the glazed material (but, and this is important, they couldn't swap the brake disks for different disks or a different compound - unless they could prove that the disk was in fact faulty and potentially dangerous). Small adjustments in the set up are also allowed - the front wing angle can be changed, as can the tyre pressures (but not much else).
However, what is not allowed are major set up changes, unless the race organisers decides that there has been a change in climatic conditions - i.e. going from a dry qualifying session to a wet race. In that instance, the teams would be allowed to change the set up, by altering the ride heights, the brake ducts and other modifications (although some, like the gear ratios, remain fixed).

If I can find it on the FIA website, after the race they should publish the results of the inspections of the cars over the course of the weekend, which should also list what alterations were made during park ferme.

I agree that Sutil and Rubens are probably in a good position - they have the better tyre for the first stint of the race, which should give them a chance to move up a few places during the race. And whilst Button is starting on the softer tyres, he could also potentially move up a place or two during the race - during the practise sessions, he did seem to be the best at managing the drop off of the softer tyres.