2010 Chinese Grand Prix Discussion

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 16 Apr 2010, 03:48

Asplodin' axle.

Edit: If someone finds a video I can watch of this, please link it.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 16 Apr 2010, 04:21

Another Ferrari engine detonated... what's new?
However if it was the same engine that was damaged in Bahrain then they'll probably get away with it... if it wasn't however Alonso's chances at the championship have just taken a nosedive because that would me he has to split 5 engines over 16 races

Also the gap between McLaren + Rosberg and the rest of the field is disturbing

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 16 Apr 2010, 04:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cL7ppUwKVE

reject material

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 16 Apr 2010, 04:51

Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cL7ppUwKVE

It looks like the front axle just shattered completely. If that's the case then the quality control people at STR must surely be up for ROTR
Meanwhile the quality control people at Ferrari's engine department are already favourites for ROTY :lol:

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 16 Apr 2010, 05:56

There isn't a front axle, though, there's nothing that directly connects the two suspension assemblies.
However, as soon as the right one failed, the load on the left doubled and took that one out.
Though it says something about just how much rear downforce they have at that speed - usually when a front wheel comes off the car just lists over to the right and lifts the opposite-rear off the ground.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 16 Apr 2010, 06:01

Jordan192 wrote:There isn't a front axle, though, there's nothing that directly connects the two suspension assemblies.

There isn't? I never knew that

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 16 Apr 2010, 07:49

Jordan192 wrote:There isn't a front axle, though, there's nothing that directly connects the two suspension assemblies.
However, as soon as the right one failed, the load on the left doubled and took that one out.
Though it says something about just how much rear downforce they have at that speed - usually when a front wheel comes off the car just lists over to the right and lifts the opposite-rear off the ground.

Was it a steering wishbone or something? That would seem to be connected to both sides...

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 16 Apr 2010, 07:51

Wizzie wrote:There isn't? I never knew that

I guess on reflection you could maybe count the trackrods, but they don't rotate or carry any suspension load, and thinking about it there must be some kind of anti-roll bar somewhere inside the nose. That will have played a role in transferring the load and triggering the left-hand side to asplode, but it won't have been what failed.

What failed is the pushrod itself, i think.

coops · Post by **coops** » 16 Apr 2010, 08:11

Alonso will end up retiring with wrist arthritis if he persists in shaking his fist at any driver who commits a perceived driving error in his eye line. Dolt. What was Senna supposed to do?

Many Blue Flags · Post by **Many Blue Flags** » 16 Apr 2010, 09:09

According to the bbc, it was the upright that failed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 624282.stm

Also, not bad how Buemi takes it. Very smooth.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 Apr 2010, 09:16

To quote Murray..."I have never seen that before!"

Post by **mario** » 16 Apr 2010, 09:37

Many Blue Flags wrote:According to the bbc, it was the upright that failed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 624282.stm

Also, not bad how Buemi takes it. Very smooth.

Given that he was left hurtling towards the barriers whilst two wheels short of a full set, he would have had every right to be aggrieved with the team. There have been some suggestions that the reason the upright failed was because Toro Rosso have been experimenting with a change to the composite that makes up the upright assembly.

On another note, listening to the practise sessions, the volcano in Iceland has caused quite a few problems for the UK based teams - Virgin Racing are short of personnel and parts, thanks to the cancellation of flights. Williams, meanwhile, were hoping to run an "F-duct" in the practise sessions, but the engineer bringing them over was unable to fly out - so although Williams were intending on running the part, only Mclaren, Sauber and Ferrari currently have the part.
On that note, here are a couple of pictures of the Ferrari system

They have also brought a modified front splitter (based on the Renault front splitter).

On another note, Renault have brought a subtly tweaked front wing, as promised

Renault are also supposed to be bringing a new floor, although there are no shots of that yet.

[EDIT] Just to add, the BBC guys were saying that one of the camera men down at that hairpin was very lucky - we saw the camera dip down as he ducked, and it turns out that the tyre just missed his head as he ducked. Good reactions from that camera man, although it could have been very nasty had he not been so quick.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 Apr 2010, 09:40

kostas22 wrote::shock:

To quote Murray..."I have never seen that before!"

Funny enough, that's what David Croft said at one point.

Quite a worry, let's hope there's nothing wrong with the car in general, just a faulty part. Sometimes it happens.

Jordan · Post by **Jordan** » 16 Apr 2010, 11:33

New contender for quote of the year?

"The Swiss, 21, careered off the track at the end of the long back straight, where cars are doing about 194mph.
Buemi said: "From in the car it was not a problem. I just lost both wheels."

Or perhaps

"Buemi said: "There's not much to say about what happened. I braked, the wheels came off and that was it. Physically, I was fine though."

Yeah, you know, just another day at The Toro...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 16 Apr 2010, 11:38

Another view. Inc onboard. (scroll down).

http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.topgea ... emi-crash/

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 16 Apr 2010, 11:48

Looks brutal, and dangerous. Just takes one tyre to go flying in the air and the result could be a fatality (Think Surtees last year)

Looking at both sessions so far, looks like the Teutonic Titan is finally starting to close up to Rosberg, although the McLarens and Mercs in general seem to have the upper hand so far. Wonder if we will have a season where they are better on some tracks and Ferrari and Red Bull are better on others?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 16 Apr 2010, 11:57

Best footage so far from the BBC website (TV footage):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 624276.stm

(Probably only British access only though)

Pieman · Post by **Pieman** » 16 Apr 2010, 12:26

Is anyone else thinking "Wacky Races"?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 16 Apr 2010, 13:13

Jeez, both Buemi and anyone close to that turn were incredibly lucky not to be injured. Kinda reminds me to what happened to Albers in Japan in 2006, but with the front wheels.
As for the times, the Mercedes Club (apart from Liuzzi) was very strong today indeed, Alguersuari was very impressive, and Chandhok has overpassed Senna again. Ferrari reliability is worrying though-Alonso's engine has blown up again, and with only 6 laps done. And the pace wasn't great.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 16 Apr 2010, 13:55

Looks like this could be McLaren's and Hamilton's weekend. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a pole tomorrow, even a whole McLaren front row is possible.

Alguersuari is has really raised his game lately!!

And Force India, Renault are certainly taking up the fight to the big four. I expect Sutil to really surprise tomorrow.

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 16 Apr 2010, 14:38

Doesn't look like there's a big chance of rain on Sunday. This could be a dry race. As much as I'd like the rain for extra action, I'd prefer this race to remain dry because my grandstands are uncovered.

Post by **mario** » 16 Apr 2010, 15:05

Phoenix wrote:Jeez, both Buemi and anyone close to that turn were incredibly lucky not to be injured. Kinda reminds me to what happened to Albers in Japan in 2006, but with the front wheels.
As for the times, the Mercedes Club (apart from Liuzzi) was very strong today indeed, Alguersuari was very impressive, and Chandhok has overpassed Senna again. Ferrari reliability is worrying though-Alonso's engine has blown up again, and with only 6 laps done. And the pace wasn't great.

The engine which happened to fail in Alonso's car in FP1 was the suspect engine from the Bahrein GP weekend (the one which they removed from the car after the practise and qualifying sessions after concerns about it over heating, and contamination of the engine fluids with sand). So, it looks as if Ferrari were right to have changed that engine after all - although it is worth noting that Massa has not had any problems so far with the engine from that weekend.

According to the BBC team, Ferrari are now running the engine that they had intended to use for the qualifying/race sessions, which (I believe) is the engine he used in Melbourne (since we know that the other engine he had used for Bahrein failed at Sepang). Apart from the fact that Alonso was running on higher fuel in FP2, judging by the lap times and the behaviour of the car, I bet that Ferrari have also turned the revs down to reduce the wear on the engine, now that it is having to do more miles than anticipated. I would expect Ferrari to be much closer to the front on Saturday.
So Alonso is now down to 6 engines for the rest of the season, which is not a total disaster - but we have three tracks which are fast and hard on the engines in the form of Canada, Spa and Monza, and he'll have to re-use an engine from one of those races at some point. So, although not certain, there is the slight risk of another engine failure and a possible grid penalty for that 9th engine.

Mercedes and Mclaren are currently sitting fairly pretty at the top of the time sheets - however, Red Bull have been fairly quiet today, concentrating mostly on their race set up (both Webber and Vettel set their times on the harder tyres). I suspect that they still have a fair amount of time up their sleeve, and could well be very strong in qualifying tomorrow.

The top 10 is very much the Mercedes club, though - 5 of the top 10 use Mercedes engines, which still seems to have a bit of a power advantage. That said, Ferrari were pretty close in the speed traps, and Renault haven't exactly been that far off either. Horner is complaining about being 30-40bhp off the Mercedes unit, but I think that he is being economical with the truth - the fact that Petrov was able to stay with Hamilton at Sepang, and Kubica was amongst the top 6 fastest at Sepang, indicates that the Renault engine probably is much closer then he claims.

LionZoo wrote:Doesn't look like there's a big chance of rain on Sunday. This could be a dry race. As much as I'd like the rain for extra action, I'd prefer this race to remain dry because my grandstands are uncovered.

So far, it looks as if the umbrella might not be needed - most predictions are for a dry and sunny day, although it is unlikely to get any warmer (it was around 16ºC today, which is what is predicted for race day, with slightly cooler temperatures on Saturday).
On a cheeky note, was it you who brought the "Grazie Luca Badoer" banner that Lee Mackenzie spotted in the crowd? (In fact, there were a few good banners in the crowd - including one which said "Andrew [Shovelin] is good but Jock [Clear] is more handsome" - Davidson was very amused by the idea that the engineers were being considered as babe magnets).

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 Apr 2010, 15:10

Does anyone think Red Bull will be a contender as strong as they were the last 3 races? They have a notorious power disadvantage, and China does seem to require a lot of grunt. I'd be surprised if they found it as clear cut as they have of late.

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 16 Apr 2010, 15:18

mario wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
LionZoo wrote:Doesn't look like there's a big chance of rain on Sunday. This could be a dry race. As much as I'd like the rain for extra action, I'd prefer this race to remain dry because my grandstands are uncovered.

So far, it looks as if the umbrella might not be needed - most predictions are for a dry and sunny day, although it is unlikely to get any warmer (it was around 16ºC today, which is what is predicted for race day, with slightly cooler temperatures on Saturday).
On a cheeky note, was it you who brought the "Grazie Luca Badoer" banner that Lee Mackenzie spotted in the crowd? (In fact, there were a few good banners in the crowd - including one which said "Andrew [Shovelin] is good but Jock [Clear] is more handsome" - Davidson was very amused by the idea that the engineers were being considered as babe magnets).

I'm still a thousand miles from the circuit so no, it wasn't me. Just being able to make qualifying tomorrow will be tight for me. It's off the plane, drop off my luggage, and ride the subway straight to the circuit.

madcat · Post by **madcat** » 16 Apr 2010, 15:45

My favourite bit about Buemi's crash is even though his wheels are long gone, he is still steering!!!!!

The Passenger · Post by **The Passenger** » 16 Apr 2010, 16:34

madcat wrote:My favourite bit about Buemi's crash is even though his wheels are long gone, he is still steering!!!!!

JJ Lehto said in the Finnish commentary that such a reaction is natural for a racing driver, even in situations like this where it obviously won't help. I can see that being the case.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 Apr 2010, 16:56

On entirely unrelated news, Buemi's cousin Natacha Gachnang has had a massive off in a GT1 Ford GT at the end of the Abu Dhabi main straight, and appears to have broken a leg. Really, not a good day for the family.

Post by **mario** » 16 Apr 2010, 17:58

CarlosFerreira wrote:On entirely unrelated news, Buemi's cousin Natacha Gachnang has had a massive off in a GT1 Ford GT at the end of the Abu Dhabi main straight, and appears to have broken a leg. Really, not a good day for the family.

Thank goodness that it wasn't any worse, though - and hopefully she will have a speeds recovery.

On another note, it is worth seeing how HRT adjusted the air flow through the brake ducts - using the tried and tested technique of duct tape!

Now, I've heard of the miracles of duct tape, but surely that is pushing things a bit too far?
Also, HRT have finally got themselves some timing screens down in their garage for the drivers to learn what is going on around the track - they are hiring a couple of Kangaroo TV's for the weekend (and according to Davidson, Super Aguri also used to do that).

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 16 Apr 2010, 18:01

It appears that the wheels have come off the Toro Rosso bandwagon...

Sorry.

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 16 Apr 2010, 19:11

On a more "rejectfull" note: What do you think are the risks that after two interesting races we will go back to the boring ones?
Sepang is a circuit where Tilke's theories seem to have worked out well. Shanghai... not so much. If F1 in 2010 can be exciting on a mediocre track, without the benefit of rain, this is the time and place to prove it.

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 16 Apr 2010, 20:51

Duct tape is a tried and tested method of finely adjusting the surface area of vents and ducts. I remember some people taking the piss a few years ago when Super Aguri had some duct tape on one of their vents, only to be rebuffed with pictures of Ferrari, Williams and Mclaren doing similar things. The big teams use tape which matches the car, so you don't really notice it.

Post by **mario** » 16 Apr 2010, 21:34

IdeFan wrote:Duct tape is a tried and tested method of finely adjusting the surface area of vents and ducts. I remember some people taking the piss a few years ago when Super Aguri had some duct tape on one of their vents, only to be rebuffed with pictures of Ferrari, Williams and Mclaren doing similar things. The big teams use tape which matches the car, so you don't really notice it.

Fair enough - it's just that I thought that they would have used something like a blanking plate, or changed the size of the duct itself, rather then just using duct tape - and I suppose that, thinking about it, for a fine adjustment, it is a relatively quick and easy way to adjust the air flow.
What I do find surprising is how much they have closed off the duct, however - they've virtually shut the entire top half of the duct off in that shot.

Pedestrian wrote:On a more "rejectfull" note: What do you think are the risks that after two interesting races we will go back to the boring ones?
Sepang is a circuit where Tilke's theories seem to have worked out well. Shanghai... not so much. If F1 in 2010 can be exciting on a mediocre track, without the benefit of rain, this is the time and place to prove it.

I suppose it depends on whether we end up with a few cars out of position - the problem is, the teams which are quickest in qualifying trim (Ferrari and Red Bull) are also the fastest in race trim, and the cars are in roughly the same order of competitiveness in both low and high fuel settings. And, thanks to the standardised tyre supplies, there is no difference in qualifying tyres, and the difference in performance of each car on the different compounds is not that big, compared to when we had two different suppliers. Finally, we have the problems with the loss in aerodynamic grip in the wake of another car, and the sensitivity of the cars to the problem.
So, since the fastest cars are already at the front of the grid, they'll just drive off into the distance, with the rest of the field strung out behind them. It's going to be a problem whatever track we go to (even a classic track like Spa produced a relatively dull race in 2009).

[EDIT] If it rains tomorrow, it could well be worth keeping an eye on Buemi - he seems to have gambled on rain for tomorrow by going for a compromise set up which should see him in better stead if it does rain. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82962
I believe, from the comments that Jaime has made as well in that article, that he might have gone for the same strategy - so if it does rain, and those two can keep it on the road, then they might steal a march on some of the bigger teams.

Post by **mario** » 17 Apr 2010, 09:26

Also, Webber is up to his old tricks again in Parc Ferme, after that qualifying session (courtesy of the BBC image gallery).

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 17 Apr 2010, 09:33

From the weather forecast it appears that we will have rain tomorrow after all, which is a good thing, since there were no surprises in qualyfying today (unless you are surprised by the fact that Red Bull is still fastest in qualyfying).

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 17 Apr 2010, 10:30

CarlosFerreira wrote:On entirely unrelated news, Buemi's cousin Natacha Gachnang has had a massive off in a GT1 Ford GT at the end of the Abu Dhabi main straight, and appears to have broken a leg. Really, not a good day for the family.

Ooh good point. I saw both incidents, thought to myself about the similarities of two cars spearing off head first (for different reasons, obviously) at the end of a long straight on a Tilke-drome, but didn't pick up on (a) the Swiss connection, and more to the point, (b) the family connection. Best wishes to Natacha for a speedy recovery.

As for qualifying, well well well, Vettel does it again. Memo to Mark - just settle for second, mate. You're simply not as good. At least you added to your collection of interesting cliches/metaphors:

Mark Webber wrote:"I gave it everything and it wasn't enough. You'd like to be a bit further up, but we are in the position we deserve to be - Seb stopped the sand a bit quicker than I did, but tomorrow is a long race.

"If you look at the last year and a half or so, [McLaren] love the publicity on Friday night. They have a quick car, they're always fast on Friday. Saturday, okay, they're not a million miles away, but I'm surprised when you look at Fernando [Alonso] and them. They had a pretty tough qualifying for whatever reason.

Interesting comment about McLaren though. Their failure to repeat the dose in Q3 is a bit of a mystery.

I am soooooo close to starting to take bets on whether Michael Schumacher will last the season. Four races in, smashed by Rosberg again, admitting that he struggled with grip and balance. This is not what he returned to F1 for.

As for the rest, Kubica and Sutil really are best of the rest, aren't they? Alguersuari impressive to outqualify Buemi. Saubers looked better in free practice but when push comes to shove they still don't have the pace. Liuzzi takes his turn at Q1 ignominy - disappointing given he has done well so far this season. Glock wins the battle of the newcomers - Virgin really does look to have the one-lap pace over the Lotus.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Apr 2010, 10:37

eytl wrote:I am soooooo close to starting to take bets on whether Michael Schumacher will last the season. Four races in, smashed by Rosberg again, admitting that he struggled with grip and balance. This is not what he returned to F1 for.

Damn that sounds like something I'll be willing to put money on if my parents would let me.
My bet is that Schumacher will last the season... just. That being said he will NOT be on the grid in 2011 and Heidfeld will be in the other Mercedes.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 17 Apr 2010, 10:40

What's up with Liuzzi? Out in Q1 whilst his teammate goes through to Q3 and that at the location of his points scoring triumph back in his Toro Rosso days. Has he got a wet weather setup maybe?

What are chances like that some or maybe even all of the new teams have got a wet weather setup as well? Timo Glock was very confident about finishing the race when German TV station RTL interviewed him. With the Virgin fuel tank still too small, the reduced lap times of a rainy race could be very much of a help. So why not fine-tune the car for that right away?
It would be a surprise though if only the former Campos Racing have got a wet weather setup since if you remember Markus Winkelhock's only GP start has proven that it's possible to be washed towards the top by rain. And his team boss back in the day was no other than Colin Kolles, the current head of Campos.

If it rains in the Chinese GP tomorrow, it should be a good race to watch.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Apr 2010, 10:48

80% chance of rain throughout race
Something tells me it may not be a question of if it'll arrive... but exactly when and how heavy it'll be once it does.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 17 Apr 2010, 11:04

Wizzie wrote:80% chance of rain throughout race
Something tells me it may not be a question of if it'll arrive... but exactly when and how heavy it'll be once it does.

After Malaysia, I'll believe it when I see it.

Until then, I'm predicting a boring processional race. Hope for the worst, and maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised!

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 17 Apr 2010, 11:38

eytl wrote: Hope for the worst, and maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised!

My approach to life.