FOTA chose breakaway series!!

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:39

I'd say Max because if he announces he's not running for re-election as FIA president, I'm certain this dispute would end and FOTA would accept a compromise. Teams are tired of him and Bernie running F1, though I do think some of the teams are taking the piss with their demands and are being troublemakers, perhaps to find a good excuse to leave the sport.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:02

This exactly what the fans didn't want. No questions asked. Three letters Max: IRL!

Python · Post by **Python** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:51

Jordan192 wrote: NASCAR becomes dominant form of motorsport worldwide.

NASCAR won't, it's peaked in the US and it's losing fans. It's golden age is over (I would say the GA was starting to come to an end around 2007 or 2008.)

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:08

Python wrote:
Jordan192 wrote: NASCAR becomes dominant form of motorsport worldwide.

NASCAR won't, it's peaked in the US and it's losing fans. It's golden age is over (I would say the GA was starting to come to an end around 2007 or 2008.)

NASCAR will never EVER be as popular worldwide as other racing series. Atleast not unless they a) stop cautioning every ten minutes. b) stop using boring as bathplug cookiecutter ovals and c) get some recognizeable names.

Because quite frankyl, Oval racing is boring as hell. Even if there is a lot of overtakes and action, the fact that there is no scenery changes on the lap, no differentation of corners within the lap and for untrained eye its impossible to make differentations between teams and drivers, it is just boring to watch.

Hell, I watched last years Valencia-race from start to finish without falling asleep, yet I'm yet to be able to watch a whole nascar race without that. The races are just BORING. And the constant Cautions don't help.

EDIT: as an addedum: I'm willing to bet that if some racingseries surpasses F1 thanks to this debacle its the Le Mans Series or WTCC. They share a lot of common things with F1 from varying tracks to innovative designs.

EDIT2: Of course ther is some NASCAR fans in europe too, but it will NEVER archieve mainstream popularity in europe. just wont happen

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:41

Great discussion all.

This is a tough little spot we find F1 in. I cannot tell who is going to blink, but I fervently predict that we will not enter 2010 with two series.

The NTechnology issue is a good first indicator - what's the attraction to all these new teams on racing in "F1" if it is no longer the pinnacle of motorsport? If nothing else, this is going to erode the FIA's position significantly, in my opinion.

I think it will be a fun British GP podcast next time around!!

Jamie.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:46

With the present pressure from TVs and diminishing attention spans from the general public, you need a sprint-based championship. That rules sportscars out (even if personally I like them more than formulae). NASCAR can be quite limited in its appeal - it's based in a specific geographical area, and ran in a way that stops most outsiders to enter, let alone make a splash. An F1-like sport is set to be the pinnacle.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:15

Maybe i should have put a

on the NASCAR comment, it was more meant as a bit of IRL/CART related satire than a genuine expectation.

I'd love to see a sportscar sprint series come to global prominence though - but it's massively unlikely.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:02

Kuwashima wrote:This is a tough little spot we find F1 in. I cannot tell who is going to blink, but I fervently predict that we will not enter 2010 with two series.

The NTechnology issue is a good first indicator - what's the attraction to all these new teams on racing in "F1" if it is no longer the pinnacle of motorsport? If nothing else, this is going to erode the FIA's position significantly, in my opinion.

Stop me if this is an insane theory, but this could be part of a much bigger plan:
(1) FOTA break away from the FIA
(2) Potential new teams, the ACEA and every other letter of the alphabet show their support for them by distancing themselves from the FIA.
(3) With the powerbase transferred to FOTA, the FIA vote Mosley out in October.
(4) The reformed FIA then re-negotiate with FOTA, who transfer power back to them.
(5) Much like FISA, a branch of the FIA is created to oversee Formula One involving members of the FIA, FOTA and WMSC.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:06

Captain Hammer wrote:
Kuwashima wrote:This is a tough little spot we find F1 in. I cannot tell who is going to blink, but I fervently predict that we will not enter 2010 with two series.

The NTechnology issue is a good first indicator - what's the attraction to all these new teams on racing in "F1" if it is no longer the pinnacle of motorsport? If nothing else, this is going to erode the FIA's position significantly, in my opinion.

Stop me if this is an insane theory, but this could be part of a much bigger plan:
(1) FOTA break away from the FIA
(2) Potential new teams, the ACEA and every other letter of the alphabet show their support for them by distancing themselves from the FIA.
(3) With the powerbase transferred to FOTA, the FIA vote Mosley out in October.
(4) The reformed FIA then re-negotiate with FOTA, who transfer power back to them.
(5) Much like FISA, a branch of the FIA is created to oversee Formula One involving members of the FIA, FOTA and WMSC.

You might be stretching it quite a bit. I see no conspiracy theory, mostly a jog for position, a power struggle within F1 (not within the sport at large). The FIA has served the sport badly for years now (except WRC, no world championship besides F1 seems to survive), but it's not clear yet where the national clubs will be - and they were the ones that kept Max as President last time around. They have no dealings with the manufacturers.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:13

CarlosFerreira wrote:(except WRC, no world championship besides F1 seems to survive)

What do you call the exodus of Subaru, Suzuki and Mitsubishi, then? Granted, that was more to do with the economic situation than anthing else, but the FIA did nothing to help the WRC formula, instead concentrating on Super-2000.

My point is that FOTA want a change in leadership at the top. The more support they get, the more they can force the FIA into early elections, a vote of no confidence against Mosley or other action that would see a regime change. That's what they want, and they're trying their damnedest to get it.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:20

Captain Hammer wrote:Stop me if this is an insane theory, but this could be part of a much bigger plan:
(1) FOTA break away from the FIA
(2) Potential new teams, the ACEA and every other letter of the alphabet show their support for them by distancing themselves from the FIA.
(3) With the powerbase transferred to FOTA, the FIA vote Mosley out in October.
(4) The reformed FIA then re-negotiate with FOTA, who transfer power back to them.
(5) Much like FISA, a branch of the FIA is created to oversee Formula One involving members of the FIA, FOTA and WMSC.

It's pretty much Formula One's only hope, that this breakaway ousts Max and FOTA come back into the fold with a new governing body composed of more than just FOTA members.

Because a series with FOTA as its direct governing body is doomed so hard it isn't even funny.

What worries me is that now they've taken the leap, they see the potential to finally achieve the aims of the GPWC - get rid of Bernie. If they patch over things with the FIA and come back to F1, Bernie still holds the commercial rights, and that could now be as much of a barrier to a return as anything else.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:27

Actually, Ecclestone would be the most powerful ally of all. If FOTA can get him on their side, the FIA would do just about anything. The thing about Max and Bernie is that, taken on their own, they don't represent too much. But bring them together, and that's where the real powerbase lies. If Bernie supported FOTA - and we know he'll jump where the money lies, because that's where the future of the sport is - he'd be in their debt and it would take time for him to work up the same kind of rapport with the new President of the FIA as he does with Mosley. The interim period would be clear skies because everyone would have relatively equal power and the sport could be about the sport once again.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:32

I suppose it is indeed FOTA playing chicken with FIA, and the former expects Max Mosley to blink before the end of the year. But what if he doesn't, will FOTA blink? Or do they actually have a detailed contingency plan to actuall go ahead with their league?

If Max decides to hang on to power and stick with a F-1 where the teams will be Williams, Force India, Manor, USGP, Campos & cia, it will be a terrible 2010 season to watch. These teams simply cannot put a good show, IMHO. They lack appeal and even the resources to sign the best drivers. But will FOTA actually go ahead with their league, which will have a heap of obstacles to succeed and many chances to fail? If they decide to forfeit this rebellion, it will be an immense humiliation for Luca de Montezemolo and his gang. I believe it can cost the job of all those team owners such as Montezemolo, Whitmarsh, Thiessen, etc. Some of the manufacturers teams might actually fold and go somewhere else.

So, yes, I believe FOTA is putting pressure on FIA, but now they have put themselves in a situation that they can't back down if Mosley decides to call their game.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:38

Captain Hammer wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:(except WRC, no world championship besides F1 seems to survive)

What do you call the exodus of Subaru, Suzuki and Mitsubishi, then? Granted, that was more to do with the economic situation than anthing else, but the FIA did nothing to help the WRC formula, instead concentrating on Super-2000.

My point is that FOTA want a change in leadership at the top. The more support they get, the more they can force the FIA into early elections, a vote of no confidence against Mosley or other action that would see a regime change. That's what they want, and they're trying their damnedest to get it.

Oh, don't get me wrong. The FIA has done its best over the years (at least since the time of the late Shekhar Mehta at the helm of the WRC commission) to truly and utterly waste the WRC. They just haven't succeeded yet, that's all.

My point was that power in motorsport at large cannot and will not rest with FOTA. They don't care about motorsports at large, the woes of the WTCC (except, maybe, for BMW) and are neither tailored nor interested in doing so. It's F1, that's the point. The players want to rule the sport. It's just like you and me getting together to play soccer, and deciding on the rules of the game on our own, ignoring the FIFA. That's all very nice and well, but I'll walk out if you win three matches in a row, complaining you're cheating me.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:47

rffp wrote:So, yes, I believe FOTA is putting pressure on FIA, but now they have put themselves in a situation that they can't back down if Mosley decides to call their game.

The problem is, if everyone sticks to their guns, it's game over for all. It's like World War I: nobody backs down for fear of losing face, than everyone loses.

Some of the greatest egos in motorsport are there. I believe that, with the exception of VW's Ferdinand Piech, they're all there! One of the golden rules of negotiation and conflict resolution is always leave your opponent a way to back down and save his face. These people are doing it the absolute other way: turning an important but bureaucratic issue become a central piece of a struggle for the control and governance. Max started it, by trying to bypass everyone with a heavy-handed approach and deadlines. The rest have decided this was the moment and the opportunity to strike that blow they've been meaning to give him. In true F1Rejects tradition, I will leave it to an acronym: TSHTF

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:05

Common sense breaks out! It's all sorted!

Oh, wait...

FIA sue FOTA

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:23

Captain Hammer wrote:Max can't back down on the deadline. He promised the potential 2010 candiates currently waiting on standby that he would tell them by this Friday.

Well, he did!

... "the FIA today announced that it is now to 'put on hold' the publication of the 2010 entry list"

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... d_fia.aspx

...and hopefully HD broadcasts will be part of the marque series!

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:27

The teams think its payback time for years of being treated like dirt-if Max resigned or promised he won't run for re-election and Todt wasn't his successor this whole shemozzle would be sorted out. But Max isn't budging, and nor are the teams though I still expect a compromise deal to be struck.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:15

CarlosFerreira wrote:(except WRC, no world championship besides F1 seems to survive)

The World Touring Car Championship seems to be doing fine.

Captain Hammer wrote:What do you call the exodus of Subaru, Suzuki and Mitsubishi, then? Granted, that was more to do with the economic situation than anthing else, but the FIA did nothing to help the WRC formula, instead concentrating on Super-2000.

Don't forget Peugeot (2005), Skoda (2005), and Hyundai (2003). Super 2000 has done a good job of reducing the cost of a Group A car, though it is alienating PWRC and IRC teams by running in the same series as their production-based brothers. Looking at Super 2000 entries in the IRC, only Abarth and Skoda have ever run factory teams while most non-Peugeot teams run cars built by outside specialists (i.e. Honda from JAS Motorsport, Toyota from Neal Bates Motorsport).

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 19:07

RejectSteve wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:(except WRC, no world championship besides F1 seems to survive)
The World Touring Car Championship seems to be doing fine.

It's not. It's underfinanced, undermarketed, television cover is much smaller than desirable, and there's a brewing discontent between BMW and SEAT over performance. The FIA and the stewards have been acting haphazardly as of late races, penalising specific manufacturers in a seemingly random fashion, and intervening too much. And, just today, I read on Autosport that Max himself was going to step in to sort out the mess! WTF?! He's too far up to decide on technical details! BMW is already threatening to leave the series, which would leave SEAT, Chevrolet (remember the trouble they've been through) and Lada to fight it out, after Alfa-Romeo and Honda left.

Pepys · Post by **Pepys** » 19 Jun 2009, 19:18

This is nothing like the IRL/CART split, it's so different it's almost incomparable. American open-wheeled racing was already becoming secondary to NASCAR when the split happened, and it was already second-tier behind F1. And, neither the IRL or CART immediately had the upper hand.

With this split, however, FOTA has all the power. F1 on huge budget caps wouldn't be F1 as we know it, it'd be cheapened and rather pathetic. Which is exactly what F1 is going to be next year without the manufacturers.

For better or worse, the manufacturers and their money own F1 and the drivers and fans will follow them. I don't think it will be hard for the combined power of FOTA to get some television contracts together, nor will it be impossible for them to get a schedule together.

I don't see how a series run by manufacturers would be any worse than the current system. Max is obviously a power-crazed loon and Bernie just wants money. F1 can't exist without large corporations, the days of actual privateer F1 are long gone and will never return.

I'm not excited about the idea of F1 changing, it's not going to be a good thing, but power has to be wrestled from Max and Bernie, and this seems like a decent way of doing it.

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 19 Jun 2009, 19:28

Mosley said the situation is making it less likely that he will step down from his role in October. "What you can't do is walk away from an organisation in the middle of a crisis," he insisted. :shock:

Bernie guessed this months ago...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 19:30

johnston21 wrote:Mosley said the situation is making it less likely that he will step down from his role in October. "What you can't do is walk away from an organisation in the middle of a crisis," he insisted.

Bernie guessed this months ago...

If you think about it, this whole affair probably means someone will have to fire-bomb max to get him out of the FIA presidency.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 19 Jun 2009, 19:45

Pepys wrote:For better or worse, the manufacturers and their money own F1 and the drivers and fans will follow them. I don't think it will be hard for the combined power of FOTA to get some television contracts together, nor will it be impossible for them to get a schedule together.

I don't see how a series run by manufacturers would be any worse than the current system. Max is obviously a power-crazed loon and Bernie just wants money. F1 can't exist without large corporations, the days of actual privateer F1 are long gone and will never return.

The manufacturers don't own F1, they're just renting it. No series can support more than a couple of manufacturers in the long run because only one can win. Toyota and Renault were on the brink of leaving anyway, why would they have any reason to continue indefinitely with a series they're not winning in, or getting the right kind of exposure from?

Motorsport is privateer teams, and any category that forgets this, ends up crippled when the big manufacturers can't be bothered any more.

Also, don't forget the amounts of money we're talking about here - a €60-70 million a year (after engines) Formula 1 car will not be slow or low-tech by any stretch of the imagination.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 19 Jun 2009, 20:04

johnston21 wrote:Mosley said the situation is making it less likely that he will step down from his role in October. "What you can't do is walk away from an organisation in the middle of a crisis," he insisted.

Bernie guessed this months ago...

But is less probable than to be thrown away the windows by other significant interest, especcially FIA supporters.

Fitch · Post by **Fitch** » 19 Jun 2009, 22:36

I like how everyone is concentrating solely on F1 in all of this...this WILL affect ALL of Motorsports WORLDWIDE..

The heart of this matter is the FIA. THEY have the power, NOT FOTA. FOTA can go and form its own breakaway series but it won't happen, because of the FIA. Here's why.....

The FOTA teams leave and form their own series, The FIA will then immediately release the following statement.

"ALL current Active and Test drivers in teams belonging to the FOTA series, henceforth have their SuperLicenses revoked, and you'll never receive one again, nor will you EVER receive a License to race in ANY FIA sanctioned event. Same goes for ANY team in the FOTA series. In addition, any FIA sanctioned track to sign up to host a race of the FOTA series will also immediately lose it's FIA sanctioning and thus will lose ALL of the FIA sanctioned events held there. Subsequently, ANY driver who participates in a Test for a FOTA series Team will also Revoke their chances of ever receiving Licensing for ANY FIA sanctioned event. Finally, any television network who currently broadcasts any FIA sanctioned events will lose the Rights to broadcast those events should they signup for the rights to broadcast any FOTA series events."

So basically, what you've just done to yourself by racing with FOTA is removed yourself from ever racing in anything except for the IRL, GrandAm and possibly ALMS, and then other minor series. So no more LeMans, No more WTCC, no more DTM, no more WRC...etc..etc......

and Finally, this has basically sealed the 2009 Drivers and Constructors Championships up........So I'd like to Congratulate Nico Rosberg for his First World Drivers title and the Williams team for it's Tenth Constructors title....and Congrats also to Force India for it's 2nd Place in the Constructors Championship as well, Well Done.......

Because of all of this the FIA has every right to hold the FOTA teams in violation of the Sporting Code and for bringing the Sport into Disrepute, and thus Strip them of all of their Points and exclude them from the Championships.......Which they WILL do if the teams do form their breakaway series........

One Last thing.....I agree with Captain Hammer, this isn't a unanimous FOTA decision this is 2 people pulling the Strings, namely John Howett and Flavio Briatore. Howett told SpeedTV this morning that it would be "quite easy" to form this series, and that they had :plenty of time" to get it set up for the 2010 season, because "we had someone, Flavio Bratore, do the investigative work for us"..............Plus I would put $50million Double or nothing down that Howett and Flav were the ones who came up with the $50 million penalty for leaving FOTA thing as a way to hold the group together....

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:03

...regardless of the "nay sayers" at this point, I have to applaud FOTA for the "marque" approach. Guess I'm just old-scholl... :roll:

..."see Max gone..."

hclw · Post by **hclw** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:27

I spent the whole of this evening doing this star wars photoshop for another forum, so I'll post it here for the sake of completion

Pedro_Diniz · Post by **Pedro_Diniz** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:36

hclw wrote:I spent the whole of this evening doing this star wars photoshop for another forum, so I'll post it here for the sake of completion

@ Fernando

Good job!

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:31

You have to distinguish between the manufacturers, e.g. Mercedes, FIAT, Toyota, Renault, and the manufacturer teams e.g. McClaren, Renault Enstone.

The manufacturers will try to get alternative series going, but if they can't, so what? They can all quite happily sit things out for a few years until there is a grand prix series they want to enter. Just spend their marketing budget elsewhere. As Max himself points out, they have no long term interest in F1 for its own sake.

Ufortunately the team like McClaren and Enstone could become the victims of this.

By starting to throw writs around the FIA is on the verge of picking a battle, not with a few small F1 teams, but with the boards of Mercedes, FIAT, Toyota, Renault et al. And these are are huge, powerful organisations. Max and Bernie are about to find out that they are only big fish in a very small pond. They will be gone soon.

Likewise is the FIA really going to ban all the world's most famous drivers, teams and circuits from motor racing because they participate in an alternative series? They can try, but the end result will be regime change in the FIA.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:33

hclw wrote:I spent the whole of this evening doing this star wars photoshop for another forum, so I'll post it here for the sake of completion

Brilliant. Says it all.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:35

johnston21 wrote:Mosley said the situation is making it less likely that he will step down from his role in October. "What you can't do is walk away from an organisation in the middle of a crisis," he insisted.

Bernie guessed this months ago...

A voluntary setp-down maybe. If the Powers That Be decide it, he may have no choice by to leave if he gets voted out of the Presidency. A lot of membes will be looking pretty seriously at this issue since FOTA are climing the sport is poorly governed.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:51

Ross Prawn wrote:
hclw wrote:I spent the whole of this evening doing this star wars photoshop for another forum, so I'll post it here for the sake of completion

Brilliant. Says it all.

Outstandng, my friend! I just only missed the Tyrrell 025 X-wing mirrors on the left part of the image!

PD: could you add it? are you willing to patch your masterpiece?

Edit: RD2D should be picket... Am I right?

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » 20 Jun 2009, 03:53

My dream for F1--anyone know FOTA's email so I can submit this?

Engines limited to 800hp, anything goes as long as it doesn't break 800hp.

Examples:

Ferrari V12, Mercedes V8, Toyota V6, Aston V12(PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASE HAVE AN ASTON V12)
Engines, being mostly larger, will rev lower and be more durable and therefore save money by being able to run an engine for at least half a season.

Raise minimum weight to allow for the larger engines, making the tyres grip less and achieving much more sliding--more exciting to watch.

Narrow the front wing more, and mandate less angle on the rear wing--less downforce, better looking car.

Kill KERS and anything related to that godforsaken money pit.

Keep the FIA's good idea for 2010 and ditch race fuel qualifying, while retaining a knockout style session.

More street circuits, better road courses(Nurburgring is good, Imola is good; faster circuits rather than Mickey Mouse tracks like Bahrain and Turkey. Classic tracks are appreciated--East London anyone?)

Race lengths are good, pitstops are good(mandate slower refueling and multilug wheels just because it'll be more interesting).

Less practice--more testing, but only at tracks where there isn't a race.

Big teams offer new teams some money to help them in their first year--encourages new teams to enter.

Michelin tyres(duh), hire someone from NASCAR to run publicity and hire Mike Coughlan to police technical regs(he's unbiased towards any team, he's available). Race director/chief steward can be Tony Cotman from Champ Car, he's professional and sane and won't be exceptionally harsh on penalties for small problems(definitely won't cause bad publicity like the FIA tends to do).

Circuits:

Round 1: Buenos Aires. Older track, but it has history and AFAIK has nothing to do with the FIA.
Round 2: Adelaide GP. Run as a double event with V8 Supercars, and even the kangaroos would watch. The shorter track could possibly be used for two sprint races--one in each direction--just to make things interesting.
Round 3: Imola. No explanation needed, it's a fun track and would appease the Tifosi.
Round 4: Spanish GP, Valencia(the permanent track, not the awful street circuit)
Round 5: Brazilian GP(gotta have it, we have Massa...), Taruma(fantastic older track, exceptionally quick banking with good passing possibilities)
Round 6: Mexican GP. Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez could work with a chicane on the Pereltada.
Round 7: Canadian GP at Montreal.
Round 8: Long Beach, USGP West(double event with the IRL--it'd be world class just for that)
Round 9: French GP, Le Mans Bugatti circuit(double event with MotoGP?)
Round 10: German GP, Nurburgring
Round 11: Belgian GP, Zolder
Round 12: US GP East, Indianapolis
Round 13: Fuji Speedway/Suzuka?
Round 14: Surfers Paradise

I don't think the series will be ready to support a 17-18 race schedule in its first year, so therefore I'm only listing 14 rounds, and all ones that are either up-to-date or fun tracks to observe at--they'll only get one shot at a good series in their first year and therefore it's gotta be right. Rome GP could work in place of Imola if need be, or even supplement it(Ferrari's involved, two races would be better for the Tifosi who would abandon F1).

Any thoughts on this?

Oh, and appoint Paul Stoddart as chief of the whole thing--He knows how to get the teams to rally behind him and knows that he has to pander to the fans.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:00

Sorry, I don't agree with a single one of those circuits.

StoneColdSpider · Post by **StoneColdSpider** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:49

there is no way anyform of F1 will run as a double feature with V8s at Adelaide...
the Clipsil 500 is 1 of the biggest V8 race events here in Aus... if F1 joined it... it would b the support class for the V8 SuperTaxis....
who run the 500kilomitors over two days in two 250km races

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Jun 2009, 05:50

I don't thnk Adelaide wants it, anyway. Back when Melbourne was considering ditching the race, they were apporached and said no. Formula One has outgrown the circuit, anyway.

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 20 Jun 2009, 07:43

I suppose one good thing about having two series is that it increases the chances of HWNSNBM and our other favorite drivers from getting back into the series. However, having two series will make it hell on determining who qualifies for rejectdom and who doesn't.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 20 Jun 2009, 09:44

It's just not going to happen, is it? I have the feeling that unless half the races are in North America, it can't happen.

Wait a minute: how many races?

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 20 Jun 2009, 09:48

Jordan192 wrote:
Pepys wrote:For better or worse, the manufacturers and their money own F1 and the drivers and fans will follow them. I don't think it will be hard for the combined power of FOTA to get some television contracts together, nor will it be impossible for them to get a schedule together.

I don't see how a series run by manufacturers would be any worse than the current system. Max is obviously a power-crazed loon and Bernie just wants money. F1 can't exist without large corporations, the days of actual privateer F1 are long gone and will never return.

The manufacturers don't own F1, they're just renting it. No series can support more than a couple of manufacturers in the long run because only one can win. Toyota and Renault were on the brink of leaving anyway, why would they have any reason to continue indefinitely with a series they're not winning in, or getting the right kind of exposure from?

Motorsport is privateer teams, and any category that forgets this, ends up crippled when the big manufacturers can't be bothered any more.

Also, don't forget the amounts of money we're talking about here - a €60-70 million a year (after engines) Formula 1 car will not be slow or low-tech by any stretch of the imagination.

I think I have a memory of a top level series which tried to focus its rules around manufuncturer teams and thought it could survive without privateer teams... now what was it called?

Oh right. World Sportscar championship. And guess what? It died after Privateers found themselves unable to compete in it due to the costs and manufuncturers who didn't have success left one after another.

So yeah, a series without privateers will eventually die a slow, drawnout death. FIA has learned its lesson, and when they try to prevent the same from happening to F1, they get all kinds of shite thrown at them and manufuncturers throw a fit.

FOTA series will die in 5 years max, while F1 will stay and live on.