Unpopular F1 opinions

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 Feb 2011, 17:03

CarlosFerreira wrote:
dr-baker wrote:What do people think his best result of 2011 will be?

A third child?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 28 Feb 2011, 21:50

I was a fan of Sebastien Bourdais.

...

and still is today.

watka · Post by **watka** » 28 Feb 2011, 22:37

JeremyMcClean wrote:I was a fan of Sebastien Bourdais.

...

and still is today.

The Goblin is going to kill you for that.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 28 Feb 2011, 23:13

thehemogoblin wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

To put it simply no.

Here's a long-form answer to the question:

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Here's an even longer answer to the question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNjQecyjE8

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 01 Mar 2011, 01:34

i've heard an unpopular opinion back from 2003 when the "new" hockenheimring was just getting.....well, old.

"i like the new hockenheimring. in fact, tilke has got himself a good track designed here!"
i don't remember who said that, mainly because he was run out of the room so fast no one caught his name.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 01 Mar 2011, 05:45

watka wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:I was a fan of Sebastien Bourdais.

...

and still is today.

The Goblin is going to kill you for that.

Did somebody ask for a murderous moderator?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 01 Mar 2011, 12:18

thehemogoblin wrote:
Did somebody ask for a murderous moderator?

No. And take Colin Kolles home on your way back, please.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 01 Mar 2011, 12:36

Phoenix wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
Did somebody ask for a murderous moderator?

No. And take Colin Kolles home on your way back, please.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 07 Mar 2011, 12:43

Adrian Sutil is the most overrated F1 driver.
Mark Webber has a case of Mansellitis, only being a championship contender due to having simply THE best car on the grid.
Kimi Räikkönen is on par with Senna as far as sheer quickness is concerned.
Sebastian Vettel is the best driver on the grid as of today.
Both NASCAR and IRL are stupid and boring series and anyone who thinks the drivers there are worth jack shite is either an idiot or an american. (or both)

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 07 Mar 2011, 16:36

Stirring the pot as usual then Tirri

I have to agree with you on Sutil though. Average at best.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 07 Mar 2011, 17:10

AndreaModa wrote:Stirring the pot as usual then Tirri

I have to agree with you on Sutil though. Average at best.

Well, it is called unpopular opinions, even though some facts do support a couple of them. Mainly the facts that A) Webber has never been even near the championship contention before Red Bull dominated. B) Räikkönen's single lap speed aka sheer quickness can be seen from having the third most fastest laps in the history of F-1, and the relative ease he seemed to get them, and C) With only two former IRL/Indycar/Cart drivers making any success in F1 (Mario A and Villeneuve) while several drivers have made the switch the other way round (Fittipaldi, Mansell, Zanardi to name a few) makes a very strong case that the best of F1 > the best of IRL/Indy/Cart, also, name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars and I can name several f1-drivers who have had success in Touring cars, Prototypes, even Rallying. To me NASCAR drivers just Scream "ONE TRICK PONY!!"

The rest is pure opinion. Oval racing in general is dull as hell, excessive overtaking is as boring as no overtaking at all and going around and around the same 1.5-5 mile concrete monstrocity for several hours is more sleep inducing than Borerain or Borencia imo. Sutil's and Vettel's overratedness and goodness respectively is also my opinion.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 07 Mar 2011, 19:01

DonTirri wrote:Kimi Räikkönen is on par with Senna as far as sheer quickness is concerned.

I'd almost tend to agree here, BUT: both drivers are, in terms of the "whole package" a step below the J. Fangio-A. Prost-M. Schumacher triumvirate. There you go with a controversial statement.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 07 Mar 2011, 20:04

Klon wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Kimi Räikkönen is on par with Senna as far as sheer quickness is concerned.

I'd almost tend to agree here, BUT: both drivers are, in terms of the "whole package" a step below the J. Fangio-A. Prost-M. Schumacher triumvirate. There you go with a controversial statement.

Who are, themselves, a step below Jim Clark.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 07 Mar 2011, 22:07

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Klon wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Kimi Räikkönen is on par with Senna as far as sheer quickness is concerned.

I'd almost tend to agree here, BUT: both drivers are, in terms of the "whole package" a step below the J. Fangio-A. Prost-M. Schumacher triumvirate. There you go with a controversial statement.

Who are, themselves, a step below Jim Clark.

That is not controversial. Now, controversial would be saying that Jim Clark is, in turn, a step below Jack Brabham!

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 07 Mar 2011, 23:58

DanielPT wrote:
That is not controversial. Now, controversial would be saying that Jim Clark is, in turn, a step below Jack Brabham!

Who, at the same time is one step below...Stirling Moss...who is one step below...Stefan Bellof. Suck on that.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 08 Mar 2011, 00:57

DonTirri wrote:... also, name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Marcos Ambrose.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 08 Mar 2011, 02:31

the Masked Lapwing wrote:
DonTirri wrote:... also, name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Does Franchitti count? He drove in NASCRAP for about... a year? He didn't do squat, though.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Mar 2011, 05:53

DonTirri wrote:Kimi Räikkönen is on par with Senna as far as sheer quickness is concerned.

Having seen some of Raikkonen's one lap specials I'm actually inclined to agree with you on that.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 08 Mar 2011, 08:53

Phoenix wrote:who is one step below...Stefan Bellof

I love you now.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Mar 2011, 11:45

Phoenix wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
That is not controversial. Now, controversial would be saying that Jim Clark is, in turn, a step below Jack Brabham!

Who, at the same time is one step below...Stirling Moss...who is one step below...Stefan Bellof. Suck on that.

You missed something... Bellof is one step below of... Marcus Winkelhock! :lol:

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 08 Mar 2011, 12:07

DanielPT wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
That is not controversial. Now, controversial would be saying that Jim Clark is, in turn, a step below Jack Brabham!

Who, at the same time is one step below...Stirling Moss...who is one step below...Stefan Bellof. Suck on that.

You missed something... Bellof is one step below of... Marcus Winkelhock!

Who, at the same time, is one step below...Hans Heyer! I mean, who else would dare to sneak onto a GP race having failed to qualify?

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 09 Mar 2011, 04:18

DonTirri wrote:Name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Juan Pablo Montoya?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 09 Mar 2011, 04:53

DonTirri wrote:Name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Robby Gordon, Sam Hornish Jr and A. J. Allmendinger (Although the extent of Allmendinger's success is debatable)

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 09 Mar 2011, 06:50

thehemogoblin wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Juan Pablo Montoya?

Otherwise good but JPM is on the category of "F1-drivers who made success elsewherer"

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 09 Mar 2011, 07:39

DonTirri wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Juan Pablo Montoya?

Otherwise good but JPM is on the category of "F1-drivers who made success elsewherer"

Sorry. Your condition was phrased ambiguously.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 09 Mar 2011, 08:35

DonTirri wrote:C) With only two former IRL/Indycar/Cart drivers making any success in F1 (Mario A and Villeneuve) while several drivers have made the switch the other way round (Fittipaldi, Mansell, Zanardi to name a few) makes a very strong case that the best of F1 > the best of IRL/Indy/Cart, also, name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars and I can name several f1-drivers who have had success in Touring cars, Prototypes, even Rallying. To me NASCAR drivers just Scream "ONE TRICK PONY!!"

Emerson Fittipaldi was one of the greatest drivers of all time, period. Zanardi was like Michael Andretti, a true hard charger with a super-aggressive driving style who would make passes where nobody thought them possible. Since Zanardi and Andretti were good RACERS, they found success in CART, which has always rewarded better racers rather than a driver with lots of speed but without much skill in actual racing. Put Vettel or Raikkonen in the IRL and I guarantee they'll never finish higher than 15th unless it's a fluke result. Drivers like Petrov and Kobayashi are wasting their racing abilities in F1, when they would probably be more at home in the IRL.

Of all of the feeder categories, F3000 success has almost ALWAYS equaled F1 failure but success in CART/IRL.

Nigel Mansell's CART success was only due to the Newman/Haas Lola being unstoppable and the officials being hugely biased towards him. If the officials were fair to Mansell, he would not have won the title, and if he was truly great, he would not have done so poorly in 1994, when he actually had to apply himself (he did so only once that season IIRC). Yes, the Penske was ridiculously fast, but what did Nige do? Oh yeah, he sucked. Sorry, Mansell was not a good racer. He might have been a fast driver, but his racing ability was minimal at best... wonder what that says about the late-1980s F1 drivers?

You also forgot to mention Dan Gurney, who won in F1, USAC (precursor to CART) and in NASCAR. That's totally not being successful. Neither is Jim Clark's excellence in USAC as well...

NASCAR drivers that have been successful outside of NASCAR's top-three touring series in the past 20 years include:
Tony Stewart, AJ Allmendinger (Eh, Champ Car was shite then, but if prototypes, endurance racing, and rallying count, then Champ Car counts too), Sam Hornish Jr., JPM, Steve Kinser (Not sure if he counts, but he was scheduled to run a full-season of NASCAR... but that didn't last long!), Robby Gordon (I don't think his SCORE records have been matched), Jimmy Spencer (Open Wheel modified success), Kenny Wallace, Dave Blaney, John Andretti (FAR from a one-trick pony...), and lest we forget Dale Earnhardt in the 24 Hours of Daytona and the hilarious story of him in that race...

However, in order to know most of their outside-of-NASCARs-main-touring-series you'd need to actually be paying attention and not make mindless, inane comments when you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Klon wrote:
DonTirri wrote:Kimi Räikkönen is on par with Senna as far as sheer quickness is concerned.

I'd almost tend to agree here, BUT: both drivers are, in terms of the "whole package" a step below the J. Fangio-A. Prost-M. Schumacher triumvirate. There you go with a controversial statement.

Who are, themselves, a step below Jim Clark.

Who stands alone with Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt in terms of excellence.... and HWNSNBM.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 09 Mar 2011, 11:13

I remember JPM being screwed over by NASCAR with an unnecessary penalty.
I'll edit this when I find the link.
PS:: I assume, based on posting that I've read so far, that Ayrton Senna is in the top row within this "best drivers" debate thing.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 09 Mar 2011, 18:53

nome66 wrote:I remember JPM being screwed over by NASCAR with an unnecessary penalty.

He sped in the pitlane after he had dominated the race. Not NASCAR's fault.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 09 Mar 2011, 19:15

Phoenix,DanielPT,DanielPT wrote:
That is not controversial. Now, controversial would be saying that Jim Clark is, in turn, a step below Jack Brabham!

Who, at the same time is one step below...Stirling Moss...who is one step below...Stefan Bellof. Suck on that.

You missed something... Bellof is one step below of... Marcus Winkelhock!

Who, at the same time, is one step below...Hans Heyer! I mean, who else would dare to sneak onto a GP race having failed to qualify?

who is at least 2 steps below Z.B.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 09 Mar 2011, 19:41

WeirdKerr wrote:
Phoenix,DanielPT,DanielPT wrote:
That is not controversial. Now, controversial would be saying that Jim Clark is, in turn, a step below Jack Brabham!

Who, at the same time is one step below...Stirling Moss...who is one step below...Stefan Bellof. Suck on that.

You missed something... Bellof is one step below of... Marcus Winkelhock!

Who, at the same time, is one step below...Hans Heyer! I mean, who else would dare to sneak onto a GP race having failed to qualify?

who is at least 2 steps below Z.B.

Z.B. doesn't sit on a step. He floats.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 10 Mar 2011, 08:59

Emerson Fittipaldi was one of the greatest drivers of all time, period. Zanardi was like Michael Andretti, a true hard charger with a super-aggressive driving style who would make passes where nobody thought them possible. Since Zanardi and Andretti were good RACERS, they found success in CART, which has always rewarded better racers rather than a driver with lots of speed but without much skill in actual racing. Put Vettel or Raikkonen in the IRL and I guarantee they'll never finish higher than 15th unless it's a fluke result. Drivers like Petrov and Kobayashi are wasting their racing abilities in F1, when they would probably be more at home in the IRL.

Okay, that I will chalk up to opinion, though I still think that 44 laps around Spa or 78 laps around monaco demand more skill in RACING and passing in said tracks demand more skill in RACING than endlessly drafting and slipstreaming around cars for 100+ laps on a goddamn "left, left, left, left, left, left" oval.

Of all of the feeder categories, F3000 success has almost ALWAYS equaled F1 failure but success in CART/IRL.

I'd chalk that up more as a failure of the category than anything else.

Nigel Mansell's CART success was only due to the Newman/Haas Lola being unstoppable and the officials being hugely biased towards him. If the officials were fair to Mansell, he would not have won the title, and if he was truly great, he would not have done so poorly in 1994, when he actually had to apply himself (he did so only once that season IIRC). Yes, the Penske was ridiculously fast, but what did Nige do? Oh yeah, he sucked. Sorry, Mansell was not a good racer. He might have been a fast driver, but his racing ability was minimal at best...

I never said Mansell was a good driver. Hell, he was a championship contender only when in the VERY best car on the grid (kinda starting to see a pattern here...) but he is the only man to hold both titles at the same time.

wonder what that says about the late-1980s F1 drivers?

Really? You want to go there? late 80's happened to have two of the greatest F1-drivers of all time, with several other great drivers too.

You also forgot to mention Dan Gurney, who won in F1, USAC (precursor to CART) and in NASCAR. That's totally not being successful. Neither is Jim Clark's excellence in USAC as well...

I just mentioned the first names that popped to mind, I never claimed they were all.

NASCAR drivers that have been successful outside of NASCAR's top-three touring series in the past 20 years include:
Tony Stewart, AJ Allmendinger (Eh, Champ Car was shite then, but if prototypes, endurance racing, and rallying count, then Champ Car counts too), Sam Hornish Jr., JPM, Steve Kinser (Not sure if he counts, but he was scheduled to run a full-season of NASCAR... but that didn't last long!), Robby Gordon (I don't think his SCORE records have been matched), Jimmy Spencer (Open Wheel modified success), Kenny Wallace, Dave Blaney, John Andretti (FAR from a one-trick pony...), and lest we forget Dale Earnhardt in the 24 Hours of Daytona and the hilarious story of him in that race...

I actually looked up every single one of those drivers (and I do admit I remembered wrong about JPM, he was a IRL driver before F1. So my bad Thehemogoblin) and outside of Gordon and Andretti, none of them have succees on any relevant and/or worthwhile series outside NASCAR/IRL. Or are you seriously comparing dirt track racing to B/WTCC, WSC, Le Mans, WRC, Fia GT etc?

However, in order to know most of their outside-of-NASCARs-main-touring-series you'd need to actually be paying attention and not make mindless, inane comments when you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I do love the american tendency to think that their very own US-only sports actually hold any reasonable weight in the rest of the world when compared to their contempories. NFL is another example of this.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 10 Mar 2011, 10:05

To make an on-topic post:

Had Senna not crashed in Imola 94, Schuey would've still won the title. Ayrton might've been able to give a sterner fight than Hill who needed Schuey to miss a couple of races to keep up at all, but in the end, the B194 was that much better of a car than the FW16 (already obvious from the first few races) that it would've taken a miracle for Schuey to lose. Also, Schuey would've won in 95 too as the B195 was just that good of a car.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 10 Mar 2011, 10:10

DonTirri wrote:...the B194 was that much better of a car than the FW16...

Bear in mind I wasn't around at the time but from what I've seen and read the FW16 overall was a better car than the B194. It's just that Schumacher extracted alot more out of the B194 than anyone ever could.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 10 Mar 2011, 10:30

To be honest, I personally believe that Ayrton would have been far too erratic to challenge for the championship, and Schuey would have won the championship anyway.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 10 Mar 2011, 11:30

I could see where that wouldn't be a popular opinion.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 10 Mar 2011, 11:53

DonTirri wrote:...the B194 was that much more ilegal than the FW16...

Fixed.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 10 Mar 2011, 11:55

DanielPT wrote:
DonTirri wrote:...the B194 was that much more illegal than the FW16...

Fixed.

Double fixed!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 10 Mar 2011, 11:56

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
DonTirri wrote:...the B194 was that much more illegal than the FW16...

Fixed.

Double fixed!

Damn typo! :lol:

captainhappy · Post by **captainhappy** » 11 Mar 2011, 04:38

the Masked Lapwing wrote:
DonTirri wrote:... also, name one NASCAR driver from the last 20 years who has made ANY success outside stock cars

Marcos Ambrose.

Hey lappy, love the avatar.

"ahhhh the earth car"

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 06 Apr 2011, 11:33

Jenson Button is fast becoming McLaren second driver, i.e., McLaren answer to Ferrari's Felipe Massa...