Senna - the movie

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 07 Jun 2011, 23:02

Just watched this tonight - a very interesting film with some cracking behind the scenes footage.

I did think however, that it was not a balanced view of the Senna/Prost relationship - the '89 clash was shown and implicitly Prost was blamed, yet no mention of the events leading up to that (Senna squeezing Prost at Estoril in 88, or the start of Imola 89) were shown. I was also suprised that there was nothing from the Suzuka 92 press conference (I think) where Senna confessed to deliberately driving Prost of the road at Suzuka in 1990.

It did though present Senna as a highly complex character with some wonderful examples of Senna's almost hypnotic way of speaking.

Well worth seeing.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 07 Jun 2011, 23:16

I was afraid of the negativity towards Prost. Years from now, people are going to watch this, and jump to conclusions to Prost without doing their research first. But, I'll probably have a look at the film sometime in the future to see what I think of it.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 08 Jun 2011, 06:46

noisebox wrote:Just watched this tonight - a very interesting film with some cracking behind the scenes footage.

I did think however, that it was not a balanced view of the Senna/Prost relationship - the '89 clash was shown and implicitly Prost was blamed, yet no mention of the events leading up to that (Senna squeezing Prost at Estoril in 88, or the start of Imola 89) were shown. I was also suprised that there was nothing from the Suzuka 92 press conference (I think) where Senna confessed to deliberately driving Prost of the road at Suzuka in 1990.

It did though present Senna as a highly complex character with some wonderful examples of Senna's almost hypnotic way of speaking.

Well worth seeing.

From all the reviews ive read, this seems to be the only real fault of the film. Im seeing it tonight, so nice to be reassured that its a good watch!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:04

Only in October it will be projected in Portugal...

S951 · Post by **S951** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:04

I've watched both versions, don't get me wrong both great very sad and happy story at the same time. The thing mentioned about prost I agree with aswell, but I don't know if it was worth going to the cinema to see? Was equally as good viewing on home cinema system aswell

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:13

S951 wrote:I've watched both versions, don't get me wrong both great very sad and happy story at the same time. The thing mentioned about prost I agree with aswell, but I don't know if it was worth going to the cinema to see? Was equally as good viewing on home cinema system aswell

Both versions? Is there more than one?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:15

Faustus wrote:
S951 wrote:I've watched both versions, don't get me wrong both great very sad and happy story at the same time. The thing mentioned about prost I agree with aswell, but I don't know if it was worth going to the cinema to see? Was equally as good viewing on home cinema system aswell

Both versions? Is there more than one?

A Japanese and a Rest of the World. The Japanese version has footage of Japanese journalists trying to give the news of his death. I think it is the only change.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:22

DanielPT wrote:
Faustus wrote:
S951 wrote:I've watched both versions, don't get me wrong both great very sad and happy story at the same time. The thing mentioned about prost I agree with aswell, but I don't know if it was worth going to the cinema to see? Was equally as good viewing on home cinema system aswell

Both versions? Is there more than one?

A Japanese and a Rest of the World. The Japanese version has footage of Japanese journalists trying to give the news of his death. I think it is the only change.

I see. Thanks Daniel!
I can't find it anywhere in the cinemas near me, here in the southeast of England. The nearest one I can find is in London, 40 miles (60 kms) away. I really want to see it in the cinema, although yesterday I bought the 2-disc Italian DVD edition, just to be on the safe side.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:52

DOSBoot wrote:I was afraid of the negativity towards Prost. Years from now, people are going to watch this, and jump to conclusions to Prost without doing their research first. But, I'll probably have a look at the film sometime in the future to see what I think of it.

Yes, that's what I was thinking as well.

I do plan to see it and form my own opinions in a few weeks though when it comes out in Australia.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jun 2011, 09:53

Faustus wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
A Japanese and a Rest of the World. The Japanese version has footage of Japanese journalists trying to give the news of his death. I think it is the only change.

I see. Thanks Daniel!
I can't find it anywhere in the cinemas near me, here in the southeast of England. The nearest one I can find is in London, 40 miles (60 kms) away. I really want to see it in the cinema, although yesterday I bought the 2-disc Italian DVD edition, just to be on the safe side.

Sorry to have induced you in a small error, but they are two differences after all. The one I mentioned and another scene that includes a Japanese reporter doing the pit lane walk (I'd forgot this one. The other is fairly easier to remember). It's right over this link. Just as proof.

EDIT: I recommend reading that making of in the link since most of the points about the film in this thread are answered in that.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 08 Jun 2011, 12:29

the cinema version iirc is 1hr45min and the other is 2h40min

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Jun 2011, 12:40

S951 wrote:the cinema version iirc is 1hr45min and the other is 2h40min

Oh you were referring to those versions! :lol:

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Jun 2011, 13:50

I wanted to watch it in the cinema but it wasn't brought to Seville

Only to Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Málaga, Granada and Oviedo. The latter two made me laugh because Granada is fairly close to Málaga, and Oviedo is relatively small, maybe they thought more people would watch it there because is Alonso's birthplace.

I would have really gone, even in my own, and I'll buy the DVD as soon as it's released. I've managed to watch it anyway, and while I liked it, I found there was something lacking. It attempted to be many things at once without completely managing it. But I wasn't disappointed, because it was more or less what I expected it to be. I love history and don't like one-sided stories, but Prost was never going to get away unscathed in a film about Senna. When I get interested in something I am very obsessive with it, I try to learn everything I can about the matter, and some time ago I got interested in Senna; therefore the film couldn't tell me too many things I didn't know already. And obviously it wasn't to be directed to F1 hardcore followers, but to the general public.

I think it's well worth watching, but you have to know what to expect. The racing is an element of the story, but the protagonist is Senna himself, so don't expect to see two hours of non-stop racing scenes and expect to see a few scenes that you would have never put in if you were the director. Although there was a pretty touching moment in one of these scenes, when I realized that a certain thing looked like a premonition (don't want to spoil it for you!).

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 08 Jun 2011, 17:07

Ferrim wrote: Although there was a pretty touching moment in one of these scenes, when I realized that a certain thing looked like a premonition (don't want to spoil it for you!).

Was it the 'New Years' thing?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Jun 2011, 17:31

Faustus wrote:I see. Thanks Daniel!
I can't find it anywhere in the cinemas near me, here in the southeast of England. The nearest one I can find is in London, 40 miles (60 kms) away. I really want to see it in the cinema, although yesterday I bought the 2-disc Italian DVD edition, just to be on the safe side.

I really want to go to see this film, but, like Faustus, it is impossible to find anywhere showing it near me at a convenient time (and I live a similar distance from London). At least I will have finished serving my notice at work in 2 1/2 weeks' time and will be able to find somewhere showing it. And I will prefer to see it in the cinema before watching it on DVD to get the best from the film, although I am guareenteed to buy the DVD of both this and the recent TT3D: Closer to the Edge documentary. And I have just paid for a holiday to the Isle of Man for this August!

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Jun 2011, 18:37

shinji wrote:
Ferrim wrote: Although there was a pretty touching moment in one of these scenes, when I realized that a certain thing looked like a premonition (don't want to spoil it for you!).

Was it the 'New Years' thing?

Yes

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 08 Jun 2011, 18:46

Ferrim wrote:
shinji wrote:
Ferrim wrote: Although there was a pretty touching moment in one of these scenes, when I realized that a certain thing looked like a premonition (don't want to spoil it for you!).

Was it the 'New Years' thing?

Yes

Yep, that was a bit wierd.

I loved te portrayal of Jean Marie Balestre - the only man who could make Max Mosely look reasonable!

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 08 Jun 2011, 20:55

noisebox wrote:I loved te portrayal of Jean Marie Balestre - the only man who could make Max Mosely look reasonable!

So did I. Is this just negative spin on him or was he REALLY like that? (in general, not just to Senna) May seen a simple question but im not very sharp with pre-Mosely FIA/FISA stuff...

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 08 Jun 2011, 21:21

I think that the Prost portrayal was reasonable. While it's true that the clash at Suzuka 1989 was the top of the cake in their rivalry, it's also true that Prost was pretty good in politics and had a highly calculating mentality. The decision to disqualify Senna for cutting the chicane seemed also politically motivated, since Prost and Balestre had the same nationality and pretty close relationships.

Post by **mario** » 08 Jun 2011, 21:35

Collieafc wrote:
noisebox wrote:I loved te portrayal of Jean Marie Balestre - the only man who could make Max Mosely look reasonable!

So did I. Is this just negative spin on him or was he REALLY like that? (in general, not just to Senna) May seen a simple question but im not very sharp with pre-Mosely FIA/FISA stuff...

He was pretty ruthless - if you want to learn more about the pre-Mosely era, then the series of articles by Forix are a good place to start (the first of which is here - http://forix.autosport.com/8w/fiasco-in ... eline.html - and the links to the next parts are within that first article).
Balestre was employed by FISA to try to break the back of FOCA by taking the fight right to the teams, and in Balestre they found a man who would rarely step back from a fight (unless he knew that he needed time to land a harder punch) and knew most of the tricks of the book to pull off his attacks. As far as he saw it, the attitude of many drivers were insults to the authority of FISA, as he saw it - remember the driver strikes in the early 1980's? Senna was certainly one such driver who annoyed Balestre, but to be honest few drivers were probably looked on that favourably by Balestre.
Even Prost, who tended to get on better with Balestre than most, found that he could be given pretty short shrift - for example, Balestre allowed Brabham, the leading FOCA team (with Bernie in charge) to take the 1983 WDC and WCC whilst using fuel of dubious legality (to put it politely), ahead of Renault and Prost.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 08 Jun 2011, 21:40

The best decision is MY decision, and MY decision is that YOU are all going to make the decision.

Oh Balestre. Such a pantomime villain.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 08 Jun 2011, 21:59

lostpin wrote:I think that the Prost portrayal was reasonable. While it's true that the clash at Suzuka 1989 was the top of the cake in their rivalry, it's also true that Prost was pretty good in politics and had a highly calculating mentality. The decision to disqualify Senna for cutting the chicane seemed also politically motivated, since Prost and Balestre had the same nationality and pretty close relationships.

I think what was shown was fair, but the bits that were missed out were around Senna's intimidation of Prost which obviously was a factor in the Suzuka '89 crash. No doubt Prost was a master politician, but I think in general terms he was more fair than Senna on track.

I left the film thinking it was a fair reflection, but the more I thought about what wasn't said made me reconsider.

I hadn't twigged that Adelaide '93 was the last time either of them stood on the podium - what a privelege for Damon Hill to be up there with them...

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 08 Jun 2011, 22:04

Slight spoiler, worth a read with reference to 1979, 1980 seasons...

http://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/other-spor ... w_1_911758

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Jun 2011, 22:04

Collieafc wrote:
noisebox wrote:I loved te portrayal of Jean Marie Balestre - the only man who could make Max Mosely look reasonable!

So did I. Is this just negative spin on him or was he REALLY like that? (in general, not just to Senna) May seen a simple question but im not very sharp with pre-Mosely FIA/FISA stuff...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20183.html

A pretty balanced account of the guy, I would say. And it talks about relatively unknown things he did in the past -while Mosley's links with fascism are well known, personally he had nothing to do with it, unlike Balestre.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 08 Jun 2011, 23:32

I saw the film last night - sure, it wasn't exactly an impartial account of Senna's career, I wouldn't expect it to be, but at least I saw something that made sure everyone knew that Alain Prost wasn't The Big Bad of the film. If anything, that title was well and truly won by Jean-Marie Balestre, and already had been even before Senna had made it to F1. I reckon he's just annoyed because he's got a girl's name - and the same applies to Jean-Marie Le Pen.

The best bits are what we never saw on TV at the time or on season review videos - the behind-the-scenes stuff, and that which was only ever shown in Brazil. And the home videos. I'll bet we never get anything like that from Michael Schumacher - the closest there's ever been was showing his coaching a teenage (or maybe just pre-teen) Ralf at karting.

Now for the sequel which is really a prequel. Anyone want to make a similar film about Gilles Villeneuve?

dr-baker wrote:And I have just paid for a holiday to the Isle of Man for this August!

Hmmm. Interesting. I might be there at the same time...

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 09 Jun 2011, 00:50

It's frustrating that I'm unable to get a hold of the long version of the movie -.-

McDuck · Post by **McDuck** » 09 Jun 2011, 08:29

Great movie. I watched both versions about a month and a half ago while I was on holiday in Fukushima, Japan.

OT: Bit torrent is an amazing technology. It's perfect for downloading the latest GNU/Linux distro ISOs. :mrgreen:

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 09 Jun 2011, 13:31

F1 Fanatic has "blogged" a series of articles, on the "Making of Senna", reasons for some of the omissions are explained therein by the Producers/Director. Some of them of course are purely down to time constraints. They started with several hours of footage, which was reduced to 4 or so, then 2.5. At that point it became extremely hard to decide what to leave out to get down to 1.5 hours (ish).
I'd like to see the film at some future date...when the fuss has died down a bit.... Prefer the memories of seeing the man himself in action.....

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 09 Jun 2011, 18:52

Its a great film, and very moving.

But its very much Senna's side of the story, and hardly unbiased. The handling of the the Prost story is ok, but one sided. All the other drivers are dismissed as also rans, which is a bit unfair on Mansell and Piquet for example.

Doesn't really deal with how ego-maniac Senna got in his last years. Remember him hitting Irvine, and calling Hill in for a telling off for getting in his way. In fact Senna's whole belief system that God was on his side and that justified him barging anyone else off the road is accepted without question.

Anyway, as any Southern preacher will tell you, God only watches NASCAR.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 09 Jun 2011, 22:47

mario wrote:He was pretty ruthless - if you want to learn more about the pre-Mosely era, then the series of articles by Forix are a good place to start (the first of which is here - http://forix.autosport.com/8w/fiasco-in ... eline.html - and the links to the next parts are within that first article).

Ferrim wrote:http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20183.html

A pretty balanced account of the guy, I would say. And it talks about relatively unknown things he did in the past -while Mosley's links with fascism are well known, personally he had nothing to do with it, unlike Balestre.

Thanks for the articles

Ferrims from grandprix.com sums up JMB really well (didnt know about his alleged Nazi connections), and its interesting (and nice) to find he also changed rules on the grounds of safety. Mario, yours is really in-depth! I didnt know Foca started in the 1960s, and how it had already seen of two attempts at stopping it by the time the Fisa/Foca war kicked off. Plus how there was a lot of politics even back then, and how early Bernie made his mark. Ive only read the first 3 so far but will read the others tomorrow. Thanks again

XurizManson · Post by **XurizManson** » 09 Jun 2011, 23:28

DOSBoot wrote:I was afraid of the negativity towards Prost. Years from now, people are going to watch this, and jump to conclusions to Prost without doing their research first. But, I'll probably have a look at the film sometime in the future to see what I think of it.

About that, we have a post in brazilian ESPN where the producer, Asif Kapadia, says that they could have said more 'bad stuff' about Prost:

http://espn.estadao.com.br/ayrtonsenna/noticia/186119_DIRETOR+DO+DOCUMENTARIO+DE+SENNA+QUERIA+TER+CONTADO+COM+NARRACAO+DO+PILOTO

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 09 Jun 2011, 23:33

XurizManson wrote:
DOSBoot wrote:I was afraid of the negativity towards Prost. Years from now, people are going to watch this, and jump to conclusions to Prost without doing their research first. But, I'll probably have a look at the film sometime in the future to see what I think of it.

About that, we have a post in brazilian ESPN where the producer, Asif Kapadia, says that they could have said more 'bad stuff' about Prost:

http://espn.estadao.com.br/ayrtonsenna/noticia/186119_DIRETOR+DO+DOCUMENTARIO+DE+SENNA+QUERIA+TER+CONTADO+COM+NARRACAO+DO+PILOTO

Just read the translation. And for the producer's comments....

XurizManson · Post by **XurizManson** » 09 Jun 2011, 23:39

Couldn´t find that statement in an english article, sorry. Used Google Trnsltr?

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 09 Jun 2011, 23:46

Yes. I did.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 10 Jun 2011, 12:28

Saw it yesterday at the Haymarket in London with my girlfriend who isn't an F1 fan at all, but she really enjoyed it, and I have to say I did too, it was well put together and quite moving really.

Apart from what has already been mentioned by others, I also felt that the dismissal of Williams in 1992 was a bit unfair - all the top teams had the electronic systems on the cars, it just turned out that Williams' was the best. The film almost portrayed them as cheating. I also felt the complete lack of inclusion of any of the other drivers in the film, like champions such as Piquet and Mansell, or teammates like Berger, Hill, Dumfries, etc was a bit odd. Plus I would have liked to have seen more from Murray Walker, and less of ESPN's commentators and their mispronounced 'Proust'.

But otherwise, really happy I've seen it, not sure if I'll get it on DVD as it'll probably be astronomically priced, but I'll wait and see.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 10 Jun 2011, 17:13

XurizManson wrote:
DOSBoot wrote:I was afraid of the negativity towards Prost. Years from now, people are going to watch this, and jump to conclusions to Prost without doing their research first. But, I'll probably have a look at the film sometime in the future to see what I think of it.

About that, we have a post in brazilian ESPN where the producer, Asif Kapadia, says that they could have said more 'bad stuff' about Prost:

http://espn.estadao.com.br/ayrtonsenna/noticia/186119_DIRETOR+DO+DOCUMENTARIO+DE+SENNA+QUERIA+TER+CONTADO+COM+NARRACAO+DO+PILOTO

One should expect that. If the movie was called Prost, Senna would've been made evil. In the making of they said they tried to make things somewhat even, always making Prost look a bit worse, of course, but sensible. Now, for us, we know pretty well what happened so no harm done there, but for people that don't follow F1 they will see Prost as evil. I was a kid at the time, but I still remember that people already saw Prost a bit in that way, being French as Balestre was. People won't change to the point of view they already have. For a new point of view we must wait for the movie Prost to come out. I am sure a few years will suffice for such movie to exist.

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 10 Jun 2011, 18:29

So Prost got the Salieri treatment?

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 10 Jun 2011, 18:56

LukeB wrote:So Prost got the Salieri treatment?

From the sounds of it. Yes. I guess you could call it the racing version of "Amadeus". Good movie, but not 100% accurate.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 11 Jun 2011, 00:37

AndreaModa wrote:I would have liked to have seen more from Murray Walker, and less of ESPN's commentators and their mispronounced 'Proust'.

It's not limited to ESPN, mind; Simon Taylor does exactly the same on some of the season review videos, as does "BRIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" in the 1983 edition. All the bones in my ears scrape furiously whenever I hear it.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 11 Jun 2011, 13:33

dinizintheoven wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I would have liked to have seen more from Murray Walker, and less of ESPN's commentators and their mispronounced 'Proust'.

It's not limited to ESPN, mind; Simon Taylor does exactly the same on some of the season review videos, as does "BRIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" in the 1983 edition. All the bones in my ears scrape furiously whenever I hear it.

Yeah true that's what it reminded me of when I heard it in the cinema, but I think they only said it then because Prost was fairly new on the F1 scene back then. In one of the later season reviews I have (with Stirling Moss so 88 or 89 I think?) Taylor does the commentary and pronounces it right. It's a bit petty but it can get very annoying!