2010 Canadian Grand Prix Discussion

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Jun 2010, 10:39

To start things off it really has become the year of the damaged chassis:
Tonio Liuzzi becomes the latest victim

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Jun 2010, 11:07

In previous years when a chassis got changed or a new car built it was not particularly newsworthy.
Now with the new homologation rules it all has to be filed & approved & thus becomes of reporting interest.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Jun 2010, 11:25

eagleash wrote:Now with the new homologation rules it all has to be filed & approved & thus becomes of reporting interest.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Jun 2010, 12:17

Wizzie wrote:
eagleash wrote:Now with the new homologation rules it all has to be filed & approved & thus becomes of reporting interest.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

Sarcasm. Wit. Lowest form of.

My point is; that there are probably actually fewer chassis changes nowadays than in earlier times when new ones were often planned 3 or 4 times per season, not taking into account those destroyed in accidents.

crazydude1992 · Post by **crazydude1992** » 08 Jun 2010, 15:23

Look at formula1.com and the weather predictions on the side...Rain in Canada should be interesting...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Jun 2010, 15:32

BBC forecast currently heavy rain on Thursday. & then Fri & Sat "sunny intervals" (between what?). Sunday will be available tomorrow (Weds)

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 08 Jun 2010, 17:43

NO. Don't even start on rain forecasts.

No joy can come from expecting rain.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 08 Jun 2010, 18:16

eagleash wrote:BBC forecast currently heavy rain on Thursday. & then Fri & Sat "sunny intervals" (between what?). Sunday will be available tomorrow (Weds)

We've already established that the BBC sucks at long-term forecasts.

Post by **mario** » 08 Jun 2010, 18:48

eagleash wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
eagleash wrote:Now with the new homologation rules it all has to be filed & approved & thus becomes of reporting interest.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

Sarcasm. Wit. Lowest form of.

My point is; that there are probably actually fewer chassis changes nowadays than in earlier times when new ones were often planned 3 or 4 times per season, not taking into account those destroyed in accidents.

Depends; sometimes, teams would go through more then that - Toyota went through 6 a year on average. On the other hand, at Renault, Alonso tended to be reluctant to change a chassis once he'd become used to its characteristics - in 2006, for example, he used the same chassis throughout the year, from initial shakedown to the Brazilian GP.

shinji wrote:NO. Don't even start on rain forecasts.

No joy can come from expecting rain.

The only ones who might have some joy from a rain shower would be the new teams. They are probably going to be closer for this race, given that their lack of downforce won't be such a penalty here, and if there is a sudden shower of rain which catches out the big teams, or a few of the big names end up spinning into a wall, they might just be able to profit from it.

On another note, Mclaren have confirmed that they are bringing an updated front wing (a few modifications to the lower elements of the wing), and a few updates to the diffuser. http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-new ... ront-wing/
This is probably going to be one of the few weaker tracks for Red Bull, given that their prodigious downforce advantage does seem to come with a high drag penalty, and no working F-duct for the car (due, at the earliest, at Valencia). Mclaren should be in the box seats for this race, taking into account the upgrades, but as we all know, there are a lot of things that could go wrong.

Thinking about it, the brakes are going to be pretty critical here - they've been marginal at the best of times for some, and Red Bull have had a few problems in this area. Hopefully, we won't see any brake failures here, although some have come very close in the past, and we might see a few having to pull out with broken brakes (although Vettel did basically make it to the end of the Spanish GP by coasting around the track and stying off the brakes, this really is a circuit where you won't get away with that).
On a side note, anybody reckoning that a backmarker or two might gamble on a safety car, and underfuel the car? They are usually a dead cert for Canada, and the teams have been pushing their luck (in Turkey, Hamilton and Button had under a lap's worth of fuel left, and that was after taking it easy - and they weren't the only ones who were a bit marginal on fuel).

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 08 Jun 2010, 19:21

Montreal circuit has very high fuel consumption so it may be critical in any case and even more so if the race doesn't have much incidents which would cause SCs.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 08 Jun 2010, 19:29

Teams will be marginal on both brakes and fuel if we have a dry race. If Red Bull had brake problems in Spain they'll be in desperate trouble in Canada, while McLaren will have a lot of problems with fuel seeing as in Turkey they had to conserve fuel. Rain will solve both these problems and we see loads of crashes in the dry anyway, if there's a race we don't need rain its this one.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Jun 2010, 20:39

Mario wrote

Depends; sometimes, teams would go through more then that - Toyota went through 6 a year on average. On the other hand, at Renault, Alonso tended to be reluctant to change a chassis once he'd become used to its characteristics - in 2006, for example, he used the same chassis throughout the year, from initial shakedown to the Brazilian GP.

I am thinking of previous years not the last five minutes, when I say that many chassis were used in a season, sometimes 10 or more. You only have to check the suffix Nos in reports to see that.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Jun 2010, 20:44

thehemogoblin wrote:
eagleash wrote:BBC forecast currently heavy rain on Thursday. & then Fri & Sat "sunny intervals" (between what?). Sunday will be available tomorrow (Weds)

We've already established that the BBC sucks at long-term forecasts.

What is the long range forecast from your end then?

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 08 Jun 2010, 22:40

The banning of in season testing and spare cars has had an effect. As mentioned above most drivers are reluctant to change chassis without good reason, but would be more willing to do so had the chassis already been "sorted" in tests and/or practice sessions. These days any new tub will have a straight line test at best before being used, so its a bigger deal having to race an as yet unused chassis.

Still not proper news though, must be a slow day.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 09 Jun 2010, 07:17

eagleash wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
eagleash wrote:BBC forecast currently heavy rain on Thursday. & then Fri & Sat "sunny intervals" (between what?). Sunday will be available tomorrow (Weds)

We've already established that the BBC sucks at long-term forecasts.

What is the long range forecast from your end then?

Cloudy, slight chance of thunderstorms on Saturday and Sunday.

coops · Post by **coops** » 09 Jun 2010, 07:52

thehemogoblin wrote:Cloudy, slight chance of thunderstorms on Saturday and Sunday.

Is it me or has the rain (or possibility of it) been mentioned at nearly every race this season? Bearing in mind rainy weather seems to produce a greater spectacle could it be that Bernie has either a) made a deal with God or b) begun developing elemental powers similar to Storm?

And he has white hair!

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 09 Jun 2010, 08:07

coops wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Cloudy, slight chance of thunderstorms on Saturday and Sunday.

Is it me or has the rain (or possibility of it) been mentioned at nearly every race this season? Bearing in mind rainy weather seems to produce a greater spectacle could it be that Bernie has either a) made a deal with God or b) begun developing elemental powers similar to Storm?

And he has white hair!

I'm talking 5 to 10 percent. I mean sliiiiiiiight.

coops · Post by **coops** » 09 Jun 2010, 08:13

Wait until his eyes turn white...

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 09 Jun 2010, 12:50

Bleu wrote:Montreal circuit has very high fuel consumption so it may be critical in any case and even more so if the race doesn't have much incidents which would cause SCs.

Interesting thought: Considering Montreal has such a high probability of safety car periods, and safety cars will reduce fuel consumption, it might be worth it to gamble on a SC session or two happening and short fuel the car. Basically, the car starts the race without enough fuel to make it to the end unless there are safety car periods, but the trade off is you gain that extra tenth or two per lap throughout the race. It could add up to perhaps a 10 second advantage through the course of the race if it works.

Post by **mario** » 09 Jun 2010, 13:29

eagleash wrote:Mario wrote

Depends; sometimes, teams would go through more then that - Toyota went through 6 a year on average. On the other hand, at Renault, Alonso tended to be reluctant to change a chassis once he'd become used to its characteristics - in 2006, for example, he used the same chassis throughout the year, from initial shakedown to the Brazilian GP.

I am thinking of previous years not the last five minutes, when I say that many chassis were used in a season, sometimes 10 or more. You only have to check the suffix Nos in reports to see that.

As far as I am aware, it was more usual to produce three/four per driver, with an additional chassis produced for crash testing at the start of the season, although the teams have tended to produce a smaller number of replacement chassis recently (for example, Ferrari only produced two last year per driver - one for the start of the year, and an upgraded one for the F60B for Barcelona onwards).
To me, 10 or more sounds a bit on the high side; remember that a chassis is quite labour intensive to build (you are probably looking at at least six weeks, and probably closer to 8 weeks, once you account for the curing time, installation of the mounting points for the suspension and so forth). It might be the case that some teams have gone through that many, and I could well be wrong, but I would have thought that around 8 was more normal.

Anyway, onto the race itself. There would be a certain logic to underfilling a car in the anticipation of a safety car, or wet weather, but the potential for a mistake is high. For example, according to a BBC article, Turkey and Melbourne have very similar fuel burn rates, but whilst at Melbourne, they put 165kg of fuel per car on average, at Turkey that was reduced to 155kg. Knocking 10kg of fuel weight off would save around 0.3s a lap, which would explain why both Mclaren and Red Bull (thought to have been quite aggressive with their fuel strategies inTurkey) streaked away more quickly then you might have expected in Turkey.
However, in Turkey, both Red Bull and Mclaren were caught out by the sheer pace at which their drivers were going, and the fact that the tyres were holding on so well meant that the lap times were dropping faster then they thought - hence the desperate need by both teams to save fuel at the end. Now, in that case, they had established a gap, so they could afford to back off. Now, if you did underfill, in the early stages of the race, you will have a big advantage, but you will be vulnerable if you have to turn the engine down sooner - and although we talk about a safety car, there may not be one at all. Take Monaco in 2009 - you'd normally bet on a safety car there, especially after Vettel's crash at St. Devote, but none came.
So, the big teams are unlikely to underfill, because they can't afford to take the risk, and the new teams, who will want to make it to the finish in the hope of a point or two (through sheer attrition) probably wouldn't risk it either (besides, they know they will be off the pace, even if they did underfuel). However, given that it is so tight in the midfield, an advantage of a tenth or two will have a bigger impact, so those teams would be the most likely candidates to be the most marginal on fuel.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 09 Jun 2010, 14:18

mario wrote:
eagleash wrote:Mario wrote

Depends; sometimes, teams would go through more then that - Toyota went through 6 a year on average. On the other hand, at Renault, Alonso tended to be reluctant to change a chassis once he'd become used to its characteristics - in 2006, for example, he used the same chassis throughout the year, from initial shakedown to the Brazilian GP.

I am thinking of previous years not the last five minutes, when I say that many chassis were used in a season, sometimes 10 or more. You only have to check the suffix Nos in reports to see that.

As far as I am aware, it was more usual to produce three/four per driver, with an additional chassis produced for crash testing at the start of the season, although the teams have tended to produce a smaller number of replacement chassis recently (for example, Ferrari only produced two last year per driver - one for the start of the year, and an upgraded one for the F60B for Barcelona onwards).
To me, 10 or more sounds a bit on the high side; remember that a chassis is quite labour intensive to build (you are probably looking at at least six weeks, and probably closer to 8 weeks, once you account for the curing time, installation of the mounting points for the suspension and so forth). It might be the case that some teams have gone through that many, and I could well be wrong, but I would have thought that around 8 was more normal.

Anyway, onto the race itself. There would be a certain logic to underfilling a car in the anticipation of a safety car, or wet weather, but the potential for a mistake is high. For example, according to a BBC article, Turkey and Melbourne have very similar fuel burn rates, but whilst at Melbourne, they put 165kg of fuel per car on average, at Turkey that was reduced to 155kg. Knocking 10kg of fuel weight off would save around 0.3s a lap, which would explain why both Mclaren and Red Bull (thought to have been quite aggressive with their fuel strategies inTurkey) streaked away more quickly then you might have expected in Turkey.
However, in Turkey, both Red Bull and Mclaren were caught out by the sheer pace at which their drivers were going, and the fact that the tyres were holding on so well meant that the lap times were dropping faster then they thought - hence the desperate need by both teams to save fuel at the end. Now, in that case, they had established a gap, so they could afford to back off. Now, if you did underfill, in the early stages of the race, you will have a big advantage, but you will be vulnerable if you have to turn the engine down sooner - and although we talk about a safety car, there may not be one at all. Take Monaco in 2009 - you'd normally bet on a safety car there, especially after Vettel's crash at St. Devote, but none came.
So, the big teams are unlikely to underfill, because they can't afford to take the risk, and the new teams, who will want to make it to the finish in the hope of a point or two (through sheer attrition) probably wouldn't risk it either (besides, they know they will be off the pace, even if they did underfuel). However, given that it is so tight in the midfield, an advantage of a tenth or two will have a bigger impact, so those teams would be the most likely candidates to be the most marginal on fuel.

You are correct in the modern era (although 4/driver + crash test = 9). I am going back too far of course.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 09 Jun 2010, 21:16

On a side issue, I am currently on holiday in Crete and only have a small selection of international tv channels. Does theGerman RTL still have the F1 rights? And qualy and race are on what time BST/CET?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 09 Jun 2010, 21:29

dr-baker wrote:On a side issue, I am currently on holiday in Crete and only have a small selection of international tv channels. Does theGerman RTL still have the F1 rights? And qualy and race are on what time BST/CET?

I think RTL only covers the qualifying and the race. Also, Lucky Bastard Christian Danner is one of the commentators.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 09 Jun 2010, 21:36

Just qualy and the race is fine as my dad and I don't really speak much German but want to watch the action live nonetheless... Thanks. Just need to know when to watch it now please!

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 09 Jun 2010, 22:17

redbulljack14 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:On a side issue, I am currently on holiday in Crete and only have a small selection of international tv channels. Does theGerman RTL still have the F1 rights? And qualy and race are on what time BST/CET?

I think RTL only covers the qualifying and the race. Also, Lucky Bastard Christian Danner is one of the commentators.

Aaaaaaand the highlights of Saturday Free Practice!

Times are 19:00 (qualifying) and 18:00 (race) CEST. If you're on Crete, though, you might rather need EEST, which would be 20:00 and 19:00 respectively

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 10 Jun 2010, 13:18

Coverage (though not necessarily the actual session) of qualifying begins on BBC(2) at 5PM BST (7PM Athens time according to World Clock website) on Saturday & coverage of the race (Sunday..obviously!) at 4PM BST...start 5PM.....7PM Athens time.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 10 Jun 2010, 16:40

Klon wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:On a side issue, I am currently on holiday in Crete and only have a small selection of international tv channels. Does theGerman RTL still have the F1 rights? And qualy and race are on what time BST/CET?

I think RTL only covers the qualifying and the race. Also, Lucky Bastard Christian Danner is one of the commentators.

Aaaaaaand the highlights of Saturday Free Practice!
Times are 19:00 (qualifying) and 18:00 (race) CEST. If you're on Crete, though, you might rather need EEST, which would be 20:00 and 19:00 respectively

Crete is indeed BST +2; I was going to allow for that. I was just allowing for peple to mention the times in a neibouring time zone and adjust accordingly, but thanks anyway. And to complicate matters, RTL is listed as an available channel but is not actually available anywhere through the available channels. There is, however, Rai 2, Nova Sports 1 and 2, Eurosport 2, ESPN (any American motorsport there this weekend?), and several others that won't be showing it like CNN, BBCNews World, Animal Planet, etc. Do any of the mentioned channels show it? Or should I wait until I get home on Tuesday and watch it on BBC iPlayer?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 10 Jun 2010, 16:43

And sorry for any bad typing, I'm currently accessing the Internet each evening via my sister's iTouch and I have fat fingers and a loathing of touchscreens...

Post by **mario** » 10 Jun 2010, 19:33

A few shots of the latest Renault front wing (they are putting a fair amount of development in this area, and it seems to have paid off so far):

Also, a quick shot of the rear wing

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 11 Jun 2010, 06:07

Somewhat major news:
Fittipaldi to be stewards' advisor in Canada

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 11 Jun 2010, 06:21

The race takes place in Sunday. On the same day, there's a football World Cup match between Germany and Australia. Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber have collided in earlier race of the season.

In 2006, Canadian GP took place on same day as Portugal vs. Netherlands in World Cup. Tiago Monteiro and Christijan Albers who had collided at Monaco, collided again in Canada. Isn't it spooky?

Off-topic, but Portugal vs. Netherlands was very memorable match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeOoJ2SQTTo

coops · Post by **coops** » 11 Jun 2010, 06:41

Wizzie wrote:Somewhat major news:
Fittipaldi to be stewards' advisor in Canada

Bah! I was hoping it was going to be Christian.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 11 Jun 2010, 08:39

coops wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Somewhat major news:
Fittipaldi to be stewards' advisor in Canada

Bah! I was hoping it was going to be Christian.

Everyone would have gone head-over-wheels for that selection.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 11 Jun 2010, 16:25

I don't need any more help with finding tv coverage - a wikipedia search said that it is available on one of the Greek channels available.

and button is fastest in fp1, ahead of schumi and Hamilton!

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 11 Jun 2010, 16:29

Seems both the McLaren and the Mercs are tops for FP1. McLarens arnt too much of a surprise but Mercedes are somewhat. Still, Its only 1st practice...

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 11 Jun 2010, 16:55

Mark Webber 14th? Is Red Bull taking something out of his car, perhaps? But I think we'll have to wait until the actual race to be sure of that. Then again, if I remember correctly this isn't exactly Mark Webber's favorite track in the world...

Post by **mario** » 11 Jun 2010, 17:25

Cynon wrote:Mark Webber 14th? Is Red Bull taking something out of his car, perhaps? But I think we'll have to wait until the actual race to be sure of that. Then again, if I remember correctly this isn't exactly Mark Webber's favorite track in the world...

It is a bit surprising that Webber is so far behind - I'm currently listening to the BBC First Practise Session coverage to see if I can find anything, and there have been quite a few comments which are both interesting and entertaining (the coverage is quite good from the technical side because Heidfeld is contribuiting (since Davidson is currently driving at Le Mans)).
The interesting side - it seems that Mclaren are being quite cautious on brakes, as it seems that they have gone for particularly large brake ducts and really maxing out the cooling. Meanwhile, from looking around at the data so far, it seems that Renault have been topping the speed traps, with Petrov clocked at 319kph and Kubica at 318kph (ahead of Button and Hamilton who are on 315kph) - so much for Horner's assertions that the Renault engine is down on power...

As for the entertaining side, we had Heikki complaining about the lack of grip, saying "It feels like a Finnish Rally stage", whilst at the beginning of the coverage, the camera cut to Hamilton roaring with laughter as he turned up in his garage - because all of his mechanics had turned up with the biggest clip on earrings they could find...

[EDIT} Interesting - Mclaren are, it seems, running the steepest angle of attack for their rear wing. It make sense, because they can take advantage of the fact they can run the steeper wing and not pay the drag penalty, and if it does rain, as seems quite possible, then Mclaren will have even more of an advantage.

watka · Post by **watka** » 11 Jun 2010, 19:56

The biggest news of the weekend so far is Chandhok being approximately 0.5 sec a lap faster than Trulli over the 2 practice sessions, and way faster than the Virgins.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 11 Jun 2010, 19:59

watka wrote:The biggest news of the weekend so far is Chandhok being approximately 0.5 sec a lap faster than Trulli over the 2 practice sessions, and way faster than the Virgins.

That damn unibrow must take away downforce...

I'm pleasantly surprised that the Renault v. Mercedes battle appears to be just as intense as the battle at the front of the field, if not moreso... would comment more but I have a paper to write. ;[

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 11 Jun 2010, 23:51

From what I'm reading on Autosport the super softs are useless after about 10 laps.

This probably throws up the biggest dilema in human history tomorrow in Qually. If you make Q3 do you want to go for glory with the softs and be forced to pit after 10 laps or play it safe with the mediums and hope the guys up front don't skip away?