Your Reject of the Year!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Sep 2010, 09:14

Okay, so as we enter the final away leg for the year, it has become my tradition to launch this thread: nominations for the coveted title of Reject of the Year. Just as Jamie and Enoch do in the yearly wrap up, you'll need to nominate first, second and third places.

3rd Place - Nico Hulkenberg
Hulkenberg was picked up early on by Williams, and groomed for the seat all through German F3 and GP2. But his races have been patchy and he has consistently proven to be his own worst enemy.

2nd Place - Virgin's gearboxes
The beginning of 2010 was a shaky start for Virgin, but they've quickly become the most reliable of the new teams. The problem lies in the gearbox - countless times, Glock and di Grassi have qualified well, only to incur a grid penalty demoting them behind the Hispanias. And by the time they clear the HRTs, Lotus are too far ahead.

1st Place - Ferrari
Between team orders and their countless attacks on the new teams, Ferrari have become a shell of their former selves. Virgin, Lotus and Hispania might be slow, but there was a time twenty years ago when they were commonplace. If Ferrari are so afraid Alonso can't lap a car six seconds slower than he is, maybe they should start asking themselves why he's even racing at all.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Sep 2010, 09:34

It may be a bit early, but I want to discuss this myself.

3rd - Nico Hulkenberg and Michael Schumacher: for me, they're both underperforming with respect to expectations. Hulkenberg has the excuse of inexperience in the face of a car that, up to Valencia, was a dog; but I agree he's been way to aggressive. The Schu has just been slow compared to Rosberg.

2nd - Red Bull: way too many mistakes inside the pits, on the pits, in terms of driver management. They have a pace advantage over close competitors that we hadn't seen since 2002, maybe even 1996. And still, still, they're hardly ahead in the Championship mostly because of their own mistakes.

1st - HRT: has to be. They've been farcical all along. Take Virgin: the silly X-Trac boc has compromised their season, they designed a car which couldn't finish a race because not enough fuel would fit, their car has never seen the inside of a wind tunnel - and still their car has been developed and is almost as fast as the Lotus (admittedly, not a very high stake, but still!). Virgin are proper rejects - slow, unreliable, but trying. HRT's pace is awful, the management is risible (they've burned all bridges with Dallara, remember?), pit lane organisation is sorely lacking, technical development is something they've read about in a book, and they haven't been able to capitalise on having a Brazilian Senna and an Indian driver. What they did to Senna in Silvertone was awful, and then they repeated it with Chandhok in Germany. Go home, Colin Kolles.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 19 Sep 2010, 09:59

3rd Place - Mercedes
Considering they were meant to be the main title challengers with Ferrari and Mclaren, rather than Red Bull. They have just not been good enough, first of all, a distant 4th best team at the very best and they're struggling to keep Renault behind them. Mercedes is all Rosberg this season who is driving the wheels of his sh*tbox.

2nd Place - Michael Schumacher
Where do I begin, the comeback that just wasn't to be. We all overhyped his comeback and he's turned out to be crap. Demolished by Rosberg, whatever happens, he's definitely DBTMOTR, even ahead of Petrov. I know he loves the sport like none other, maybe except Barrichello who'll be in a mobility scooter whilst still racing in F1. To put it simply, not good enough.

1st Place - HRT
Simply awful, well off even the pace of Trulli, Kovalainen, Glock and sometimes Di Grassi as well. And swapping Senna for Yamamoto at Silverstone and swapping the legendary Chandhok for Yamamoto at every race since is just stupid. Swap them for Klien if anyone, at least he has some talent. In the words of CarlosFerreira, Go Home, Colin Kolles.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 19 Sep 2010, 10:02

My nominations:

3rd - Tonio Liuzzi: In the pre-season Vitantonio Liuzzi was a man under pressure as Force India were interested in running Paul Di Resta in a race seat. With the European season over to say that Tonio Liuzzi hasn't delivered is a massive understatement. He may have 13 points on the board but Sutil has scored 45 and if we were using the previous points system Sutil would be outscoring Liuzzi 15-2. The fact that Tonio still has a drive is a miracle in itself

2nd - Michael Schumacher: Sure he may have been away for 3 years but Pedro de la Rosa has also returned after a 3 year haitus and he isn't doing bad against Kobayashi. However Kobayashi isn't no legend yet and neither is Nico Rosberg. However Schumacher has been throughly thrashed by the young German and I see Rosberg winning a championship for Mercedes rather than Michael because Rosberg must be riding on a massive wave of confidence right now.

1st - Red Bull: The fact that they could be leading the constructors championship by 200 points quite easily right now says it all. From mechanical failures to driver errors to strategic blunders Red Bull have made errors left, right and centre. What makes it worse is that all of it have been major bugbears since 2006 and it doesn't look like changing anytime soon. They're wasting what is easily the best car on the grid if not the best car in the history of Formula 1 right now which is why they will be lucky to walk away with either title.

Dishonourable mentions to Mercedes on a whole, Officialdom, Hispania, Ferrari Engines and for the most part Nico Hulkenberg, Sebastien Buemi and Jaime Alguersuari.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 19 Sep 2010, 10:47

This season, the decision on this website's prestigious annual awars is pretty much less obvious than in previous years. I'm actually happy that I do not need to make that decision since none of the campaigns has stood out as much as those of the previous years, such as the CVC-FIA vs FOTA struggle and Nelsinho's campaign.

Yet, there are some nominees that deserve to be mentioned in time, if only in passing:

a) Ken Anderson's US-F1 - for not pulling out in time and saving face
b) the Ferrari engine department - for blowing up too many units spread over their 3 teams
c) Sakon Yamamoto - he has yet to show that his comeback was worth the trouble

All others are far closer to where I expected them to be at this point in the championship, even Schumacher, De La Rosa, Liuzzi and Buemi, all of whom have had rather anonymous seasons so far.

But who knows, maybe this time, not a racing entity at all but a sponsor gets the award. How about Richard Branson, who went from having his stickers on the championship winning car to naming the CFD experiment of Wirth Research that struggled mightily without a wind tunnel, wings flying off, the fuel tank being too small, the reserve driver quitting mid-season for lack of perspective. In the end, he might lose his bet with Tony Fernandez and have to work as an air hostess - only because Alan Donnelly lured him in to sponsor the team of Mosley's buddy Wirth.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 19 Sep 2010, 11:11

Dishonourable mentions go to:

Vitantonio Liuzzi
Toro Rosso
Jonathan Legard
Colin Kolles
Red Bull management

Post by **mario** » 19 Sep 2010, 11:43

Yannick wrote:b) the Ferrari engine department - for blowing up too many units spread over their 3 teams

Actually, thinking about it, only two of the three Ferrari powered teams suffered from reliability problems at the beginning of the year - I don't recall any of the Toro Rosso engines failing during the race or in free practise, and their engine usage is essentially the same as the rest of the grid. Then again, it is rumoured that Ferrari have been giving them a different specification engine, and are getting Toro Rosso to rack up as many miles as possible to see how their engine performance drops off with use.

Looking at the nominations, I do have to agree with a number of the recommendations here, and here are my suggestions:

3rd - Mercedes GP. I accept that the team is working to the Resource Restriction Agreement this year, and would have struggled to match the bigger spenders, but they are struggling to keep behind them a Renault team which started the season well behind them. As per usual, whatever incarnation of the team, they have produced a flawed car (this year, it is the weight distribution), and when they've brought updates, they can't get them to work - their F-duct is inefficient, and they still suffer from overheating problems with their blown diffuser, despite having had it on the car since Valencia. And to add insult to injury, the very team that they have moved out of - Mclaren - is beating them comprehensively, and may very well win the Constructors title this year.

2nd - Vitantonio Liuzzi. With Force India having developed their car into a much more consistent mid field package, Liuzzi has a car which is, although not a world beater, is capable of finishing within the top 10 regularly. However, despite this, he has been far too inconsistent - earlier in the season, he made some very wild and erratic mistakes, such as taking out several other drivers in the Chinese GP, and he has only beaten Sutil twice on merit (in Bahrain and Canada). He may have started the season well, with 9th and 7th place in Bahrain and Australia, but since then, he has faded away - and, frankly, it is a surprise that he has held onto his seat ahead of several other drivers.

But, for me, the winner has to be
1st - Xtrac. OK, a slightly unusual suggestion - but the transmission that they have sold to the new teams is, frankly, not fit for purpose (and it didn't work first time around when they sold it to Williams in 2006). How often have we heard one of the new teams complain of hydraulic problems, or gearbox problems? No wonder Lotus went to Renault to ask for a new transmission system (and ended up with an engine deal on top) - nor, for that matter, when we have senior figures within Lotus making comments like "I hate this transmission", or Fernandes saying "Jarno retired [due to] gearbox. Oh well, making decisions easier."
And it is worth noting that the first thing that all three teams started looking for were experts in hydraulic systems - which shows how much faith they had in Xtrac...

However, there are a whole host of dishonourable mentions here - Schumacher (not so much for the lack of pace but for his disregard for the safety of others when defending his position), HRT (which was a shambles under Adrian Campos's direction from the start), Colin Kolles (for putting sponsorship dollars ahead of drivers who could actually improve the car (i.e. Klien and Chandhok), and having the nerve to then say that he will continue 'business as usual' http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86738 ), and the Red Bull strategy team, for being so slow witted, when they have had one of the most dominant cars since the Ferrari F2004.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 19 Sep 2010, 11:57

mario wrote:
Yannick wrote:b) the Ferrari engine department - for blowing up too many units spread over their 3 teams

Actually, thinking about it, only two of the three Ferrari powered teams suffered from reliability problems at the beginning of the year - I don't recall any of the Toro Rosso engines failing during the race or in free practise, and their engine usage is essentially the same as the rest of the grid. Then again, it is rumoured that Ferrari have been giving them a different specification engine, and are getting Toro Rosso to rack up as many miles as possible to see how their engine performance drops off with use.

I'm pretty sure Alguersuari lost an engine earlier in the season but I may be incorrect.

Post by **mario** » 19 Sep 2010, 13:43

Wizzie wrote:
mario wrote:
Yannick wrote:b) the Ferrari engine department - for blowing up too many units spread over their 3 teams

Actually, thinking about it, only two of the three Ferrari powered teams suffered from reliability problems at the beginning of the year - I don't recall any of the Toro Rosso engines failing during the race or in free practise, and their engine usage is essentially the same as the rest of the grid. Then again, it is rumoured that Ferrari have been giving them a different specification engine, and are getting Toro Rosso to rack up as many miles as possible to see how their engine performance drops off with use.

I'm pretty sure Alguersuari lost an engine earlier in the season but I may be incorrect.

You're right that he has had an engine fail (during the Hungarian GP, where it failed on the opening lap), although, according to the Technical Report from Monza, both Toro Rosso drivers have used 7 engines this season (with the 7th being used at the Italian GP). Buemi, meanwhile, has had no engine failures (although he did have a hydraulics system failure in Spain).

As it stands, the team that have used the fewest engines so far are Renault (both drivers have used 6 engines so far, up to and including Monza), Mark Webber (he re-used his engine from Spa at Monza, and still has two fresh engines), and although Hamilton took a fresh engine for Monza, because of his accident on the opening lap, he effectively has two fresh engines (it'd have done FP3 and qualifying). Fernando is going to have to be careful, though, as he has not got any fresh engines left now (he used his last new engine for Monza).

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 19 Sep 2010, 14:54

mario wrote:1st - Xtrac.

Yes, that's a good suggestion - their role is underrated in the problems of the new teams.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 19 Sep 2010, 17:00

Ed24 wrote:
mario wrote:1st - Xtrac.

Yes, that's a good suggestion - their role is underrated in the problems of the new teams.

Agreed.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 19 Sep 2010, 17:57

Yannick wrote:
Ed24 wrote:
mario wrote:1st - Xtrac.

Yes, that's a good suggestion - their role is underrated in the problems of the new teams.

Agreed.

Another agreed here, they've been terrible. However, I'll go with the F1rejects vein (apart from f1 officialdom (2007)) and nominate drivers/teams.

3. Michael Schumacher
As the year wears on it becomes clear he won't be competitive - but why? Yes, he hasn't driven for three years, the tyres are new and the car is a dog - but if you compare that to the frankly stellar Rosberg in the same car it becomes clear there's only so long those excuses will stick. Add the controversy of Hungary, rookie antics in Canada, (questionable) rule flouting in Monaco and it is clear the Red Baron is a shadow of his former self - with only the worst parts intact!

2. HRT
Although not much was expected of them from the start, the Spanish team has done nothing but suck. A last-minute buyout, pay driver antics, lack of funds and poor organisation means they will probably never be at the admirable level that Lotus and Virgin have fought over all year. Although promise shows from the drivers - even if one of them may not race again - it remains to be seen if the team will be competitive next year, or even on the grid.

1. Lucas di Grassi
No driver has been more anonymous this year. Despite being in the second worst car on the grid, even teammate Glock has managed to mix it with the Lotuses. Poor Lucas, however, has done no such thing and it will be a surprise to see him with the team next year.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 19 Sep 2010, 18:05

CarlosFerreira wrote:It may be a bit early,

Agreed, seconded etc. But like you, I'm going to comment, albeit briefly, as I'll be reserving judgement until the season is truely over.

Schumacher has to win it, if based on precedent alone. Apart from his 1997 disqualification, he is currently on course for his worst championship finishing position since... his debut part-season in 1991! And then, he only entered 6 races, scored four points and came 14th. Since then, he had his 1997 disqualification, but would have been 2nd. Even in 1999, when he broke both his legs and only entered 10 races, he was 5th in the championship. He is currently 9th, a mere 1 point ahead of Sutil, who is driving for last year's tail-enders (admittedly mid-fielders this year).

His championship positions (DSQ in 1997, Did Not Enter in 2007-2009):
14th-3rd-4th-1st-1st-3rd-DSQ-2nd-5th-1st-1st-1st-1st-1st-3rd-2nd-DNE-DNE-DNE-9th (provisional)

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 19 Sep 2010, 18:57

3-Tonio Luizzi: Tonio had a great start, scored points in first 2 races while sutil are crashing with others drivers. But after your engine failure in sepang, he's dropped so much.

2-HRT: Andrea Moda of modern F1.

1-FIA: Stewards errors (like in italian gp, they didnt punished hulkenberg), no new teams for 2011, poor choice of teams for 2010 (why lola is out!?

) and Ferrari are acquitted from team order accusation. All these reject stuff are enough for a ROTY.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Sep 2010, 19:32

3rd................STR for being totally anonymous. They're just dull. They can't even liven things up by being truly terrible.

2nd................Michael for a disappointing comeback. He's off Rosberg's pace. Next year if he stays will have to be an improvement. Rosberg is showing signs of fulfilling some of the promise of his early races for Williams.

1st.................HRT for being a shambles.

Dishonourable mention for Force India, who, after last year's effort, look a bit like Jaguar compared to Stewart.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 19 Sep 2010, 19:44

3rd - Xtrac: Pretty much all the problems I've heard from the new teams have been down to hydraulics or the gearbox. I'd barely heard of Xtrac before reading this thread, but their apparent incompetence in making reliable equipment seals a podium position for them nicely. If I had heard more of them, they'd probably be a bit higher.

2nd - Michael Schumacher: By far and away the least impressive driver who isn't a rookie or Sakon Yamamoto this season. While Rosberg has been a miracle-worker, Michael has been trundling around for most of the season picking up very minor points, fighting with Adrian Sutil for 9th in the championship. He may be willing to keep fighting, but fighting spirit is not enough when the only noteworthy things he's done is drive questionably when defending position, and I can't see why Mercedes would want to keep him. Honestly, if I was in charge, I would be begging Sutil to take over in 2011 - not only would he be a good counter to Rosberg, but he's done enough this season to warrant a move up, and is German to boot, meaning Mercedes get keep their all-German lineup.

In short, he's been overhyped, underperfoming, and wholly disappointing, but is saved from ROTR only by...

1st - HRT: Somebody here (can't remember who) summed it up perfectly when they said that while Lotus and Virgin are the kind of rejects we like to see - hard trying, unlucky, but determined to succeed, HRT are the bad side of rejectdom. Questionable team management, an uncaring boss, replacing the most likable driver on the grid with Sakon Yamamoto, who has done very little to prove he deserves to be in F1 at best, and it's really a no-brainer for me. Go Home, Colin Kolles.

Kobacrashi · Post by **Kobacrashi** » 19 Sep 2010, 19:52

A bit early to decide on this one as we are only three quarters of the way through the season, but fun none the less -

3rd place - USF1 - Massive dissapointment and let down. They made HRT look bad as they didn't even show up to make the last row of the grid when in reality HRT may be a horrendously inept outfit but at least they managed to turn up. USF1 just embarressing.

2nd Place - HRT, a team of such incompetence has not been seen this millenium, maybe they will keep going and become the plucky underdogs, like minardi or more likely vanish and never be mentioned again accept for on this site.

1st Place - Sebastian Vettel, Yes Red Bull has made mistakes but he has buggered up a lot, some of it was reliabilty but at te start of the season if you had said that he would have been behind Webber you would not have believed it. His mitake in Hungary leaps out at me for being to far behind at the safety car restart which in reality gave Webber the win and basically after the team sticking with Vettel all the way through the season he forced them into making Mark the number one driver. He basically this season has gone from being a future champion to being a slighty inept competitor who most certainly cannot overtake. Verdict, not good enough.

Dan B · Post by **Dan B** » 19 Sep 2010, 20:01

4) Red Bull: Not because of their pace, which they have plenty of, but rather, it's their consistency which is their biggest downfall. Cars breaking down in inopportune times, pit lane screw ups which other teams take advantage of, and infighting between drivers. It's one thing to see this at a smaller team, like Sauber or Force India, but for one of the Big 4 this year, it's embarrassing; and with their numerous gaffes, Ferrari and McLaren have since chipped away at their chances of both WDC and WCC.

3) Nico Hulkenberg: Like Red Bull, Hulkenberg suffers from inconsistency. Despite him being groomed from GP3 and GP2, he has been outstripped by Barrichello, and even when the car was improved, he has been extremely spotty in terms of his drives. While Kobayashi and Petrov might have their bad qualifying sessions, they make it up by going through the field and thus they finish in the points. I haven't seen that from Hulkenberg. Maybe I am a tad harsh on him, but coming from a great GP2 season should at least show that one is a great driver.

2) XTrac: How many hydraulic failures have the new teams had this year altogether? A real shocker for a company that supposedly knows what they are doing. Yet when one of those cars (HRT, Virgin, Lotus) retires, it's most likely because of hydraulics. And when top executives from Lotus start complaining about the transmission, something is amiss.

1) Hispania Racing Team Cosworth: It is one thing to have no funding. It is another to constantly chase money while not doing anything on the car. Having severed their ties with Dallara doesn't help; yes, the Dallara they have is a jalopy, but at least they have a car. But what about next year? I doubt Lola will be interested in working with them, ditto with Toyota, Prodrive, and Epsilon-Euskadi. Replacing a competent driver for a pay driver shows that the team is just looking for money rather than looking for positions. Take a look at Sauber; the car that they have isn't great, and suffers from numerous issues much like the HRT. However, they are working on the car, and slowly but surely they are getting points, and attracting some sponsorship. Or take a look at Virgin. As mentioned, the car had barely enough fuel to run the race, never saw a wind tunnel, and is extremely hard to drive, but they are fast as Lotus, and they are trying their darndest (much like their ancestors, Simtek). For a while, I though HRT was doing just that with Chandhok. His performance at Monaco was great, and even though he was clouted by Jarno Trulli, he was classified at 14th, which for an HRT, was commendable. Chandhok though is gone, and in comes in the Japanese version of Giovanni Lavaggi. While Yamamoto finishes (which is a start), he has been outpaced by Bruno Senna (who in turn was outpaced by Chandhok!). Monza's pit lane schemozzle could have happened to any team but here they weren't even fighting for position; why bother being trigger happy? The fact that they are running with a one-size-fits-all aero package, coupled with Colin Kolles's penchant for doing "business as usual," makes the team look like a bunch of amateurs.

Even their car is ugly. Lotus's and Virgin's look fetching, and looking back, so were Pacific's, Simtek's, Fondmetal's, and (dare I say it), Andrea Moda's. I feel like Colin Kolles doesn't care. And if he truly does, then he should put Klien and Chandhok in their respective seats, and POSSIBLY get something going. However, this isn't happening. While I can seem them start for 2011, I doubt they will finish it.

Dishonorable Mentions:
- The Stewards: Alguersuari gets penalized for cutting a chicane but he didn't gain any advantage. Hulkenberg cut the chicane at Monza 3 times, on top of the chicanes he cut at Canada and elsewhere, but there was nothing done about it. The incident at Shanghai at the pitlane should have been looked at and BOTH Vettel and Hamilton should have been disqualified for the subsequent race, but again, nothing happened. Please, put Mansell or Warwick as permanent stewards; something might get done.

- Bridgestone: First making a hard tire that couldn't finish the race, and then making a soft tire that can. What's next, making a slick tire that handles extremely well in the wet while the wets do just the opposite?

- Mercedes GP: The new Toyota.

- USF1: A team that makes HRT actually look good. Here was the team where everyone was expecting to be the top of the new 4. And so we waited for news...and waited...and waited...and waited some more, until we got a nosecone. That's great guys; Virgin and Lotus managed to get their cars up and running in time, and HRT barely managed to get a car but they did. But here we have the top tier new team with no car, one driver, and no resources anywhere. Just imagine if USF1 did make the grid. In any case they would have been the slowest (or conversely, World Champions).

Post by **mario** » 19 Sep 2010, 21:29

Dj_bereta wrote:3-Tonio Luizzi: Tonio had a great start, scored points in first 2 races while sutil are crashing with others drivers. But after your engine failure in sepang, he's dropped so much.

2-HRT: Andrea Moda of modern F1.

1-FIA: Stewards errors (like in italian gp, they didnt punished hulkenberg), no new teams for 2011, poor choice of teams for 2010 (why lola is out!? ) and Ferrari are acquitted from team order accusation. All these reject stuff are enough for a ROTY.

With regards Lola's bid for 2010, they were passed over for a guaranteed grid slot, but were offered the chance to be the first reserve team, should an existing entry, or a new entry, fail to make it. However, not wanting to accept a place on the reserve list, Lola promptly withdrew their entry in mid June - and so, the official first reserve team was Team Lotus. Had Lola not withdrawn their entry, then they, and not Team Lotus, would have been on the grid this year...

As for this years entrants, let us consider who we had - we had Durango/Villeneuve (a broke GP2 team with a penchant for shoddy repairs on the cheap, and a washed up former driver) and Epsilon Euskadi (although with facilities and technicians, thanks to their Le Mans efforts, expanding that to a full F1 team would have severely strained their finances). We can ignore Stefan, firstly because he later withdrew his entry, complaining about how long the FIA were taking, and secondly because all he had was a box of spare Toyota parts and a shell company.
Now, if we are honest, the remaining two teams weren't the cream of the crop, to say the least, so I can see why the FIA decided that they might as well decline the entrants this year, and run with the same grid as this year (assuming HRT are still around next year...)

As for the team orders debate, I have to agree with others here that the team orders rule, as it was, was not enforceable - we have seen so many other teams use team orders recently, albeit in code, that the rule was effectively toothless. As we have seen, there are those in the paddock who are fully in favour of team orders - Sauber and Williams both wrote to support Ferrari, whilst Whitmarsh, speaking as the head of FOTA, pointed out that either the FIA has to police the rule, or it has to withdraw the rule. Whether or not team orders should be allowed is another matter, but I can see why the WMSC came to the decision it came to.

However, that is not to say that I agree with everything the FIA has done - I agree that the stewarding has been bewilderingly poor at some races. Monza was the prime example, where Alguersuari was penalised for cutting a chicane, and Hulkenberg wasn't when he cut the chicane three times - which lead to Hulkenberg saying after the race that he thought that what he'd done was perfectly fine (surely not the mentality we want to instill - that cutting chicanes is effectively OK as long as you're lucky enough to get away with it).

Post by **mario** » 19 Sep 2010, 21:34

patrick wrote:1. Lucas di Grassi
No driver has been more anonymous this year. Despite being in the second worst car on the grid, even teammate Glock has managed to mix it with the Lotuses. Poor Lucas, however, has done no such thing and it will be a surprise to see him with the team next year.

Interestingly, it turns out that Di Grassi will be replaced during the Friday practise sessions at the remaining venues by D'Ambrosio - revealed by D'Ambrosio in an interview with the Belgian RTBF news network. Given that D'Ambrosio has been suggested as a possible replacement to Di Grassi, it isn't surprising to see that Virgin Racing are letting him show off what he can do at the last few venues. http://www.f1technical.net/news/15432

Looks like Di Grassi may have his work cut out if he wants to appear on the grid in 2011...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 19 Sep 2010, 21:37

Re the stewarding of the chicanes at Monza: whatever happened to those tight chicanes made up of tyre stacks or those giant barrier cushion things that go in front of the armco on the inside of each chicane? That would stop drivers cutting the corners, allows the tracks to keep asphalt run-off, and ensures its all safe. You used to see them all the time not only at Monza, but the old Hockenheim, and many other tracks where a new chicane was installed with the old track or inside still covered in tarmac. Definately something to consider for next year in my opinion.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Sep 2010, 22:00

mario wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:3-Tonio Luizzi: Tonio had a great start, scored points in first 2 races while sutil are crashing with others drivers. But after your engine failure in sepang, he's dropped so much.

2-HRT: Andrea Moda of modern F1.

1-FIA: Stewards errors (like in italian gp, they didnt punished hulkenberg), no new teams for 2011, poor choice of teams for 2010 (why lola is out!? ) and Ferrari are acquitted from team order accusation. All these reject stuff are enough for a ROTY.

With regards Lola's bid for 2010, they were passed over for a guaranteed grid slot, but were offered the chance to be the first reserve team, should an existing entry, or a new entry, fail to make it. However, not wanting to accept a place on the reserve list, Lola promptly withdrew their entry in mid June - and so, the official first reserve team was Team Lotus. Had Lola not withdrawn their entry, then they, and not Team Lotus, would have been on the grid this year...

As for this years entrants, let us consider who we had - we had Durango/Villeneuve (a broke GP2 team with a penchant for shoddy repairs on the cheap, and a washed up former driver) and Epsilon Euskadi (although with facilities and technicians, thanks to their Le Mans efforts, expanding that to a full F1 team would have severely strained their finances). We can ignore Stefan, firstly because he later withdrew his entry, complaining about how long the FIA were taking, and secondly because all he had was a box of spare Toyota parts and a shell company.
Now, if we are honest, the remaining two teams weren't the cream of the crop, to say the least, so I can see why the FIA decided that they might as well decline the entrants this year, and run with the same grid as this year (assuming HRT are still around next year...)

As for the team orders debate, I have to agree with others here that the team orders rule, as it was, was not enforceable - we have seen so many other teams use team orders recently, albeit in code, that the rule was effectively toothless. As we have seen, there are those in the paddock who are fully in favour of team orders - Sauber and Williams both wrote to support Ferrari, whilst Whitmarsh, speaking as the head of FOTA, pointed out that either the FIA has to police the rule, or it has to withdraw the rule. Whether or not team orders should be allowed is another matter, but I can see why the WMSC came to the decision it came to.

However, that is not to say that I agree with everything the FIA has done - I agree that the stewarding has been bewilderingly poor at some races. Monza was the prime example, where Alguersuari was penalised for cutting a chicane, and Hulkenberg wasn't when he cut the chicane three times - which lead to Hulkenberg saying after the race that he thought that what he'd done was perfectly fine (surely not the mentality we want to instill - that cutting chicanes is effectively OK as long as you're lucky enough to get away with it).

Thought this thread was just to nominate for ROTY. With some way to go there's room for change & re-thinking but Dj_bereta has given his noms. & his reasons & they are his opinions & as valid as any other member of this forum. It is up to Capt. Hammer (or whoever makes the final decisions) how much credence is given to them. I suppose it is also up to the Capt. (etc.) whether this becomes just another general discussion thread raking over the same old ground or not. If it is a voting forum it is just that, & everyone has an equal say & a vote or nom. is their's to cast as they see fit. Others may disagree & can vote for another option, & that is the point.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 19 Sep 2010, 22:05

Personally I preferred it when the reject podium was all drivers, so unless things change significantly in the last 5 races, I'll say:

Bronze: Di Grassi (who?)

Silver: Liuzzi
Gold: Schumacher

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 19 Sep 2010, 22:27

I still think its far too early to tell. But a few thoughts:-

I don't think you can nominate one of the three new teams or their drivers. Too easy. We new they would be slow and they were. ( Well maybe Yamamoto for buying his way back in and still being cr*p.)

Schumacher and Hulkenburg were the two most hyped drivers at the start of the season, and both have failed to perform to script. But Hulk is a rookie, and Michael is only really bad compared to his previous stellar record. So I don't know. Maybe Michael for repeated dangerous driving and setting a bad example to every new driver.

Red Bull have done their best to throw away the championship and generally embarrass themselves. And Vettell has been arrogant, fragile and done the pointy finger thing. So maybe the pointy finger thing or Helmut Marko, who I blame for all the things that have gone wrong at Red Bull. (But they might still win.)

Maybe 'everyone who thought that Hamilton would toast Button and that they would have a big punch up, including me'. ( But, there are still a few races to go, and Lewis is getting grumpy.)

Ferrari have under performed, and broken the odd rule. But they might still win.

I don't think its fair to nominate the stewards. Too easy. Ok they have made the odd bad decision. But its been pretty good compared to the nonsense of recent years.

Speaking of which I'd like to put forward Max for consideration. Now that he has gone and a sane man is running the FIA, notice how most of the bollocks politics and crazy stewarding has disappeared. It was his fault after all.

Generally, I think they have all done rather well. ROTR tricky this year.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 19 Sep 2010, 23:21

Joint 3rd) Mercedes Benz GP - Constructors Champions to 4th and miles off the pace in one winter. That's impressive. And only for the fact that they have two (well one and a half

)top drivers to Renault's one, they'd have slipped to 5th by now, and may still slip to 5th. The car is a dog, and Rosberg, in particular, has flattered it.

Joint 3rd) Michael Schumacher - Whilst my opinion of his car is fairly low, that Schumacher has been consistently outperformed by Rosberg is inescapable. I made a conscious decision at the start of the season, not to consider him for ROTR because I consider him coming back to the sport, for nothing other than the love of it, fundementally unrejectworthy. So that I've changed my mind on that tells you how disappointing I feel he's been.

2nd) Hispania Racing Team - Poorly organised, disastrous relationship with Dallara, barely made it to the grid, Kolles, Yamamoto, may not be in the sport beyond next season etc. etc. etc.

1st Stewarding and Suspect Safety car rules - Adding in ex-racing drivers will fix everything!! Nope. I honestly do not recall a season with this many controversial decisions, we've been talking about them every other race. That shouldn't be. I was getting an inkling that overtaking etiquette is being gradually edged towards the point where you can only overtake someone if you send a fax to their team beforehand advertising your intentions. Vettel's penalty in Belgium confirmed it. Drivers should not be penalised for making a genuine mistake when overtaking.
Schumacher's penalty at Monaco was stupid, and the length of time it took to figure out whether to penalise Hamilton or not at Valencia was ridiculous.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 20 Sep 2010, 07:59

Ross Prawn wrote:Speaking of which I'd like to put forward Max for consideration. Now that he has gone and a sane man is running the FIA, notice how most of the bollocks politics and crazy stewarding has disappeared. It was his fault after all.

In the manner commonly accepted in the Forum, I propose crying Bingo! and that somebody should give this man a beer.

Post by **mario** » 20 Sep 2010, 10:33

eagleash wrote:Thought this thread was just to nominate for ROTY. With some way to go there's room for change & re-thinking but Dj_bereta has given his noms. & his reasons & they are his opinions & as valid as any other member of this forum. It is up to Capt. Hammer (or whoever makes the final decisions) how much credence is given to them. I suppose it is also up to the Capt. (etc.) whether this becomes just another general discussion thread raking over the same old ground or not. If it is a voting forum it is just that, & everyone has an equal say & a vote or nom. is their's to cast as they see fit. Others may disagree & can vote for another option, & that is the point.

Sorry - it was meant to just be an elaboration on a few of his points, but it came out somewhat longer then perhaps I'd anticipated. I didn't intend it to sound like an attack on Dj_bereta, and I apologise if it has come across as such.

Still, we're getting some interesting suggestions, and it is also interesting to see which topics keep on coming up (namely, Michael Schumacher, Mercedes GP, HRT and the inconsistency of the stewards). Certainly, I agree that the first two have been lacklustre, the third the modern successor to Andrea Moda, as some have said, and the last is particularly frustrating, given the reforms to the stewards made by the FIA for this year.
What is especially annoying about the stewarding is not just the controversial decisions - there will always be marginal decisions, and questions about how to interpret a regulation, and inevitably there will be some decisions which seem bewildering to the outside world (for example, why Jaime was penalised at Monza for chicane cutting, but they bluntly rejected Red Bull's requests to even look at Hulkenberg's chicane cutting). For me, it is when the stewards miss the patiently obvious transgressions - Massa overshooting his grid box at Spa, albeit unintentionally, is the most recent example - which is most frustrating, because it smacks of a lack of professionalism in a sport which claims to be the pinnacle of motor sport.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 20 Sep 2010, 13:57

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Ross Prawn wrote:Speaking of which I'd like to put forward Max for consideration. Now that he has gone and a sane man is running the FIA, notice how most of the bollocks politics and crazy stewarding has disappeared. It was his fault after all.

In the manner commonly accepted in the Forum, I propose crying Bingo! and that somebody should give this man a beer.

I second this proposal.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 20 Sep 2010, 15:50

My pre-selection of rejects: Red Bull, Mercedes, Sauber, HRT, Vettel, Schumacher, Hulkenberg, Petrov, Liuzzi.

I'll make the final election when the season is over.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 20 Sep 2010, 17:48

for now this is my top 3.

3TH VETTEL:
He's starting to act as Michael Schumacher did before his second life in the formula 1.
He is very weak when he is in a losing position, and if he thinks he can do something about the situation he's getting almost worser then Judi Ide.
He know just see's that he is'nt the number one of RBR, and he can't handle that either, he just falls out against his Team mate. And probably he does to to the RBR management.
Can't inmagine that he doesn't do that.
He got a long road to go, and to learn, if he looks how the other Deutsche manschaft in the Formula 1 reacts, he should think what do they good what i don't do.

2ND HRT/Colin [] Colles
No good word for this team ass leader what does he really think ? Wauw look me i'm back in the formula 1 with my shitface, i'm only here to destroy the formula 1 team because i failed also by Midland and Spyker, and i'm also failing hard in the rest of the car sports im involved with. What does he really want ? Look what for stupid things he used to get a Yamamoto in the HRT, well Yamamoto doesn't it that bad, but the way how it happend. And why Chandock ? why not Senna he's just driving because his family name is Senna, His uncle was one of the best drivers ever although he was a bit psycho with his i was above my car and saw myself driving in the wet conditions. But to come back to HRT, what a mismanagement they got ?
Look what happend last race, don't tell me they are new that's why it happend, that guy was in the car still and they released Yamamoto to go back on the track ? Sorry but what a weird situation.
Well Colles when will Albers drive the last races ?
Maybe i should drive the HRT, i will pay you 90.000 airmiles a race.

1ST Bernie Ecclestone(d)
Where to start, well lets begin in Januari 2010,USF1 failed to get his money, why you choosed for that team ?
Peter Winsor you knowed that guy, back in the 80's he already failed in the f1, and he failed more and more but well they are real Americans they will be there.
Uh Uh WRONG !!! Oh and how much did you ask for some rights to show the formula 1 in a country ? Right your crazy.. and how much do you ask a organisation for a GP ? Right you should stop using drugs !!
Ofcourse youré a buisness man but your insane, not all the things should be that expensive, why are the GP tickets that high ? in times like these ?

watka · Post by **watka** » 20 Sep 2010, 21:08

My top 3 (so far):

3rd - Red Bull
I can't really put them any higher up the list because they've obviously had the fastest car, but they really have made a pig's ear of trying to tie up this championship, and it's been a collective effort. Vettel has made plenty of mistakes over the course of this season and has really been shown up for them. He stills looks immature and know he's lost that sparkle that everyone saw in him in Monza 2008. The jester to the hate figure if you like. Mark Webber is leading the championship but hasn't been consistent enough. He's been guilty of a few mistakes himself, like his poor getaways, and crash in Valencia. The team have done their part with some typical Red Bull mechanical failures at the start of the season (although to be fair, they've cleaned up their act now), laughable man management, and 9 times out of 10, clueless strategy calls. All this adds up to is these facts and figures that are coming out of our ears about just how many points they've dropped this season.

2nd - Officialdom
Maybe it's just the way we are on this forum, but there has been a lot of controversy in regard to penalty enforcement this season, the most I can remember since Schuey and the Benetton team were up to their tricks in 1994. What's more is there's been a distinct lack of consistency in the appliance of the rules. Does anyone actually know what constitutes as dangerous driving any more (I'm talking mainly about the Chinese GP here)? There have been times where the stewards/race control have completely missed incidents (Massa starting yards ahead of his gridbox, Hulkenberg jumping the chicanes). I think that using former drivers as stewards has been an abject failure as well, because again this encourages inconsistency as not all driver's will see an incident in the same way (Gerhard Berger vindicated Schumacher's move on Barrichello in Hungary, for crying out loud!). The rules themselves have been shown up as poorly written. I could go on and on...

1st - Hispania Racing Team
The team that best fulfils the title of reject has to be HRT. They said that Bahrain would be their test session, well it looks like the whole season has been their test session so far. The car is woeful and they were fully relying on Dallara for everything. So what do they go and do? Bad mouth Dallara! What's left is a shambolic shell of a team, who still don't really understand their own car and daren't do anything with it in an attempt to make it faster. They've got no cash, no future, yet they still plod along at the back of the grid just for the sake of being there and getting into other people's way. Bruno Senna must be crushed by his experience's this year; to think that he could have been racing a race winning car last season as well. Karun Chandhok would have been grateful just to get a drive, but it's still not nice to see him on the sidelines whilst a pay driver in the form of Sakon Yamamoto gets to potter around well off the pace (at least he brings it home in one piece). They are a reject team, but the most rejectful thing about them is that I don't even wish them well.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 20 Sep 2010, 23:16

Jamie and Enoch, on the Seasonal Preview, wrote:REJECTS IN 2010:

# Bahrain's 'endurance' layout
# Crowds (or lack thereof) in Istanbul
# The new teams' hopes of matching the established outfits
# Williams' aspirations of being a front-running team again
# Renault - you know you're in trouble when you're sponsored by Lada
# Virgin's all-CFD design
# The "BMW Sauber Ferrari" name
# Of the drivers, Vitantonio Liuzzi and Pedro de la Rosa
# Zoran Stefanovic - you know you haven't heard the last of him yet
# USF1's attempts to be back on the grid in 2011

At the very least, 8/10. The only clear miss is Renault. Not bad.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 21 Sep 2010, 01:52

3. The Stewards For obvious reasons like: Germany team-orders Gate, Safety Car rules, Hulkenburg's corner cutting incidents, Massa's jump start, qualifying penalties, just a typical performance this year from the stewards.

2. HISPANIA RACING TEAM (nee Campos) The joke of F1 this year, they have turned into a train wreck with financial issues, Colin Kolles, and Sakon Yamamoto all playing a part. They have provided the definition to a reject team with questionable management, slow cars and many nonsensical driver changes. I don't expect them to be on the grid next year.

1. MICHAEL SCHUMACHER After being hyped up as the new, quite old, big thing with Mercedes, he has done terribly. Just terribly. No podiums, no race wins, no points and being completely demolished by Rosberg in the dodgy Merc. I doubt he will get past his two-year deal. BRING SUTIL IN!

DisHonorable Mentions: Mercedes
Bahrain
Sebas
Ferrari
Liuzzi

baddriving50 · Post by **baddriving50** » 21 Sep 2010, 04:48

Based on what I've seen so far, I'll just leave this here...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Sep 2010, 07:50

tristan1117 wrote:Sebas

Sebastien Bourdais?

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 21 Sep 2010, 09:38

Ferrim wrote:
Jamie and Enoch, on the Seasonal Preview, wrote:REJECTS IN 2010:

# Bahrain's 'endurance' layout
# Crowds (or lack thereof) in Istanbul
# The new teams' hopes of matching the established outfits
# Williams' aspirations of being a front-running team again
# Renault - you know you're in trouble when you're sponsored by Lada
# Virgin's all-CFD design
# The "BMW Sauber Ferrari" name
# Of the drivers, Vitantonio Liuzzi and Pedro de la Rosa
# Zoran Stefanovic - you know you haven't heard the last of him yet
# USF1's attempts to be back on the grid in 2011

At the very least, 8/10. The only clear miss is Renault. Not bad.

What is other miss? I would probably say Williams.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 21 Sep 2010, 09:42

Bleu wrote:
Ferrim wrote:
Jamie and Enoch, on the Seasonal Preview, wrote:REJECTS IN 2010:

# Bahrain's 'endurance' layout
# Crowds (or lack thereof) in Istanbul
# The new teams' hopes of matching the established outfits
# Williams' aspirations of being a front-running team again
# Renault - you know you're in trouble when you're sponsored by Lada
# Virgin's all-CFD design
# The "BMW Sauber Ferrari" name
# Of the drivers, Vitantonio Liuzzi and Pedro de la Rosa
# Zoran Stefanovic - you know you haven't heard the last of him yet
# USF1's attempts to be back on the grid in 2011

At the very least, 8/10. The only clear miss is Renault. Not bad.

What is other miss? I would probably say Williams.

I'd say Virgin, simply because they are up and running with the Lotuses; yes, there was the disaster with the fuel tanks earlier during the year, but the car hasn't been atrocious.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 21 Sep 2010, 19:44

baddriving50 wrote:Based on what I've seen so far, I'll just leave this here...

That is absolutely fantastic.

baddriving50 · Post by **baddriving50** » 21 Sep 2010, 22:24

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
baddriving50 wrote:Based on what I've seen so far, I'll just leave this here...

That is absolutely fantastic.

Thanks.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 21 Sep 2010, 22:37

baddriving50 wrote:Based on what I've seen so far, I'll just leave this here...

Win.