Heidfeld will be replaced by Senna... ?

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 27 Jul 2011, 08:48

Well i received some tweets with the text

Brunno Senna to replace Heidfeld for Hungary.
But is this tru ?
I don't see why they wanna put a non-talent guy who's only driving because of his family name by Renault, or is it the money ?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 Jul 2011, 08:52

It's true but only for FP1.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 27 Jul 2011, 09:11

f1-gast wrote:I don't see why they wanna put a non-talent guy who's only driving because of his family name by Renault, or is it the money ?

That's where i'm stopping you. I've said this time and time again, Senna is NOT untalented. Now, while his name has generated a lot of publicity about him, it's not all that's got him so far. He's where he is because of his skill. He's done very well in all of the feeder series, even beating some drivers who are on the F1 grid today. While his name has gotten him fans, it's also gotten him hate, like your post showed.

Renault have already said before that Nick needs to improve. He's hardy beating Vitaly, this would be fine if he were bringing in masses of sponsorship money, opened up an entire market to Renault, and was number 2 driver. But he's not. He's being payed, and was brought on only to lead the team in Kubica's absence. He's not performing well enough for a 1st driver, and Renault may bee looking to test their reserve driver in preparation for if they ever decide to show Nick the door.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 27 Jul 2011, 10:15

Peter wrote:
f1-gast wrote:I don't see why they wanna put a non-talent guy who's only driving because of his family name by Renault, or is it the money ?

Renault have already said before that Nick needs to improve. He's hardy beating Vitaly, this would be fine if he were bringing in masses of sponsorship money, opened up an entire market to Renault, and was number 2 driver. But he's not. He's being payed, and was brought on only to lead the team in Kubica's absence. He's not performing well enough for a 1st driver, and Renault may bee looking to test their reserve driver in preparation for if they ever decide to show Nick the door.

For me, he's doing his usual job - steady and unspectacular. If they wanted someone faster, maybe they could have brough Taku back from IndyRacing. I think Heidfeld's most valuable asset is his experience, and that's a big part of the reason he's now driving in F1.

However, seeing how Renault's season is turning up to be, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to evaluate either Senna or Grosjean to partner Kubica next season.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 27 Jul 2011, 10:33

Peter wrote:
f1-gast wrote:I don't see why they wanna put a non-talent guy who's only driving because of his family name by Renault, or is it the money ?

That's where i'm stopping you. I've said this time and time again, Senna is NOT untalented. Now, while his name has generated a lot of publicity about him, it's not all that's got him so far. He's where he is because of his skill. He's done very well in all of the feeder series, even beating some drivers who are on the F1 grid today. While his name has gotten him fans, it's also gotten him hate, like your post showed.

Even Taki Inoue has beaten some F1 drivers before he came into the F1 so that doesn't say a thing.
But all the reserve/test drivers of renault aren't good, Ho Ping Tung (stop make me laughing) got also no talent, only a big mouth he managed it to f1, and saying every winter again to "OUR" Dutchies he is in negotiation to be a driver for some Formula 1 team, and at the end he is just got anywhere.

Maybe i'm a bit negative, but this is how i see it.
They can better at Nakajima behind the wheels, or even jackie Stewart so he will complete his 100th race.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 27 Jul 2011, 10:52

f1-gast wrote:Even Taki Inoue has beaten some F1 drivers before he came into the F1 so that doesn't say a thing.
But all the reserve/test drivers of renault aren't good, Ho Ping Tung (stop make me laughing) got also no talent, only a big mouth he managed it to f1, and saying every winter again to "OUR" Dutchies he is in negotiation to be a driver for some Formula 1 team, and at the end he is just got anywhere.

Maybe i'm a bit negative, but this is how i see it.
They can better at Nakajima behind the wheels, or even jackie Stewart so he will complete his 100th race.

I don't agree with that idea of Taki and Ho Ping being talentless. I think they are major talents at being rejects and I fully support their presence in F1. F1 needs rejects as much as champions...

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 27 Jul 2011, 10:54

Im not saying Taki shouldn't be in the formula 1.
I only want to say that Hop Ping Tung is yelling to hard from the rooftops !

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 27 Jul 2011, 12:02

I don't think Renault would have much to lose by giving Senna or Grosjean a race drive, maybe 3 races each.

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 27 Jul 2011, 14:39

I agree, a couple of chassises at most.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 27 Jul 2011, 18:32

Frentzen127 wrote:I agree, a couple of chassises at most.

Obviously from Grosjean

If there's 2 things Senna isn't, it's slow, and crash prone. Unless a dog wonders onto track, Bruno will be fine.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 27 Jul 2011, 18:44

I don't rate Senna at all, he got beaten by Chandhok and Yamamoto on occasions, and got obliterated by Klien. Not sure he would do any better than Heidfeld.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 28 Jul 2011, 00:06

Mister Fungus wrote:I don't rate Senna at all, he got beaten by Chandhok and Yamamoto on occasions, and got obliterated by Klien. Not sure he would do any better than Heidfeld.

Jeez, my Senna defensive sword is getting rather dull now.

The only times Chandhok finished ahead of Bruno was because of Senna having very poor reliability in the first half of the season or Bruno running into problems in the races. And Senna was consistently ahead of Yamamoto for the ENTIRE time he was in the car. Senna would've most likely beaten Klien as well, but he ran into bad luck again for the 3 races Klien was there in qualifying, Singapore spending half the session the wrong way, and Brazil being on the wrong tyres at the wrong time and failing to set a good lap. In Abu Dhabi, Senna outqualified him, and if you look at practice sessions, Bruno was ahead of Christian more often. He beat all his teammates in 2010, Klien to a lesser extent that the other 2, but Bruno did an ok job. If I were a team manager, i'd analyze the stuff in more detail as to why Klien was ahead whenever and see it was bad luck for Bruno more than being slow.

RainierSassetti · Post by **RainierSassetti** » 28 Jul 2011, 00:23

If true, lotsa YAY to Bruno

A driver do not need to be in a F1 team young driver's programme to be successful... he could surprise a few people. Maybe he was sandbagging in feeder series for that moment

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 28 Jul 2011, 00:49

Interesting thing i've jsut seem. Bruno Senna beat, in 2008 in GP2, Lucas di Grassi, Roman Grosjean, Pastor Maldonado, Sebastian Buemi, Vitaly Petrov, Karun Chnadhok, Jerome d'Ambrosio, Kamui Kobayashi and Sakon Yamamoto. Anyone else call him talentless and i'll aim the papaya launcher at you :evil:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 28 Jul 2011, 01:15

Peter wrote:Interesting thing i've jsut seem. Bruno Senna beat, in 2008 in GP2, Lucas di Grassi, Roman Grosjean, Pastor Maldonado, Sebastian Buemi, Vitaly Petrov, Karun Chnadhok, Jerome d'Ambrosio, Kamui Kobayashi and Sakon Yamamoto. Anyone else call him talentless and i'll aim the papaya launcher at you

So did Giorgio Pantano. And di Grassi missed the first 3 rounds and still only wound up a point behind Senna.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Jul 2011, 01:17

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Peter wrote:Interesting thing i've jsut seem. Bruno Senna beat, in 2008 in GP2, Lucas di Grassi, Roman Grosjean, Pastor Maldonado, Sebastian Buemi, Vitaly Petrov, Karun Chnadhok, Jerome d'Ambrosio, Kamui Kobayashi and Sakon Yamamoto. Anyone else call him talentless and i'll aim the papaya launcher at you

So did Giorgio Pantano. And di Grassi missed the first 3 rounds and still only wound up a point behind Senna.

And how exactly is beating Maldonado and Yamamoto an achievement?

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 28 Jul 2011, 02:41

Wizzie wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Peter wrote:Interesting thing i've jsut seem. Bruno Senna beat, in 2008 in GP2, Lucas di Grassi, Roman Grosjean, Pastor Maldonado, Sebastian Buemi, Vitaly Petrov, Karun Chnadhok, Jerome d'Ambrosio, Kamui Kobayashi and Sakon Yamamoto. Anyone else call him talentless and i'll aim the papaya launcher at you

So did Giorgio Pantano. And di Grassi missed the first 3 rounds and still only wound up a point behind Senna.

And how exactly is beating Maldonado and Yamamoto an achievement?

I'd say beating Buemi, Petrov and Kamui is though. Senna deserves a proper go. I'm hoping he impresses is FP1 so someone takes a chance on him.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 28 Jul 2011, 03:57

Wizzie wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Peter wrote:Interesting thing i've jsut seem. Bruno Senna beat, in 2008 in GP2, Lucas di Grassi, Roman Grosjean, Pastor Maldonado, Sebastian Buemi, Vitaly Petrov, Karun Chnadhok, Jerome d'Ambrosio, Kamui Kobayashi and Sakon Yamamoto. Anyone else call him talentless and i'll aim the papaya launcher at you

So did Giorgio Pantano. And di Grassi missed the first 3 rounds and still only wound up a point behind Senna.

And how exactly is beating Maldonado and Yamamoto an achievement?

I must say, neither of those drivers are bad drivers. The pastor has sorted himself out somewhat and is now outqualifying Rubens, though he always falls back in the races. And Yamamoto though not fast, wasn't painfully slow and could usually keep the car out of the dirt. I'd rate Sakon no lower than i'd have rate Nakajima.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 28 Jul 2011, 07:24

Faustus wrote:I don't think Renault would have much to lose by giving Senna or Grosjean a race drive, maybe 3 races each.

Yes, they do - the opportunity to put Kubica in the car at the end of the year (if he's ready). A team can only run four drivers in a season - this is what caught Sassetti out in 1991. Petrov and Heidfeld make up two of those drivers. Replacing Heidfeld with Senna and then Senna with Grosjean once the GP2 championship is over would use up Renault's driver quota. There is talk that Robert Kubica will be able to return to the sport as early as Abu Dhabi (or Brazil, depending on who you talk to), and Renault would no doubt want to get him back in as soon as he's ready. But unless they can apply to the FIA for a special injunction to let them run a fifth driver, putting Senna and Grosjean in car #9 will only prevent Kubica from returning.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 28 Jul 2011, 10:11

AdrianSutil wrote:I'd say beating Buemi, Petrov and Kamui is though. Senna deserves a proper go. I'm hoping he impresses is FP1 so someone takes a chance on him.

Normally, I would agree with you - certainly as far as Petrov and Kobayashi are concerned - but considering that we're talking about the 2008 GP2 season, and that in said season, Lucas di Grassi was able to miss the first 3 rounds and beat all three of those drivers, and came within a point of knocking Bruno Senna out of 2nd does not speak highly of Senna's abilities.

Peter wrote:I must say, neither of those drivers are bad drivers. The pastor has sorted himself out somewhat and is now outqualifying Rubens, though he always falls back in the races.

Which is why he is not rated highly by many people - qualifying is useless if you cannot convert it to race results

Peter wrote:And Yamamoto though not fast, wasn't painfully slow and could usually keep the car out of the dirt. I'd rate Sakon no lower than i'd have rate Nakajima.

That's not exactly a good thing, Nakajima failed to score in the 2009 Williams, which was not a bad car. Saying Bruno Senna is better than them is like saying you're better at running than a man with a twisted ankle.

All of that aside, though, I think Senna deserves a shot in practice at least. I'm just not going to be holding my breath.

Post by **tommykl** » 28 Jul 2011, 10:27

Peter wrote:And Yamamoto though not fast, wasn't painfully slow and could usually keep the car out of the dirt. I'd rate Sakon no lower than i'd have rate Nakajima.

This.

I see Sakon Yamamoto as a newer version of Pascal Fabre or Alex Yoong.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 28 Jul 2011, 11:23

Captain Hammer wrote:But unless they can apply to the FIA for a special injunction to let them run a fifth driver, putting Senna and Grosjean in car #9 will only prevent Kubica from returning.

I'd be surprised if they couldn't and I would be even more surprised if it is rejected. Would you want to be THAT guy who didn't let Kubica have his "heroic comeback"? I don't think anyone at the FIA would want that either.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 28 Jul 2011, 11:25

Klon wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:But unless they can apply to the FIA for a special injunction to let them run a fifth driver, putting Senna and Grosjean in car #9 will only prevent Kubica from returning.

I'd be surprised if they couldn't and I would be even more surprised if it is rejected. Would you want to be THAT guy who didn't let Kubica have his "heroic comeback"? I don't think anyone at the FIA would want that either.

Isn't that rule open to special cases and requests?

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 28 Jul 2011, 11:28

DanielPT wrote:Isn't that rule open to special cases and requests?

I have looked it up

19.1 a) During a season each team will be permitted to use four drivers. Changes may be made at any time before the start of the qualifying practice session provided any change proposed after 16.00 on the day of scrutineering receives the consent of the stewards.
Additional changes for reasons of force majeure will be considered separately.

So we could have the driver changes and the unlikely Kubica comeback.

Post by **mario** » 28 Jul 2011, 19:11

Klon wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Isn't that rule open to special cases and requests?

I have looked it up

19.1 a) During a season each team will be permitted to use four drivers. Changes may be made at any time before the start of the qualifying practice session provided any change proposed after 16.00 on the day of scrutineering receives the consent of the stewards.
Additional changes for reasons of force majeure will be considered separately.

So we could have the driver changes and the unlikely Kubica comeback.

It's possible, but I would agree that it is unlikely, given the severity of Kubica's injuries. On a rational basis, if I were at Renault, I would not want to rusk Kubica into the cockpit, since there would be the risk of causing greater problems and delaying his return to the cockpit still further. It would also remain to be seen whether Sid Watkins would permit it - I suspect that he would also caution against a hurried return, and would almost certainly be prepared to veto any attempt to put Kubica into the cockpit if he thought that he wasn't fit to race.

To be honest, though, I doubt the situation will arise - it's more likely that Senna will be given time in the Friday practise sessions, with Grosjean taking over Heidfeld's seat on a permanent basis. In some ways, it would probably be better for Senna - he would be under considerably less pressure to perform, yet would still have a reasonable chance to showcase his skills. Grosjean, however, would be under considerable pressure to justify being selected over Heidfeld, were that to happen, and coming in partway during a season with little to no practise means that he might struggle.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 28 Jul 2011, 22:50

Didn't Sid Watkins retire some years ago, although he still serves on safety committees & the like?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 28 Jul 2011, 23:11

I doubt Senna is the next Deletraz, but what I do think is that Senna is the next Badoer. Just plain unlucky. I doubt he'll get the job. Better a driver that has experience than a driver which has zero experience (well, HRT doesn't really count). (Bruno) Senna is just a walking bank, he puts his uncle's name in shame...

Yes I said uncle. He doesn't have any of his genes, folks! (What are people going to say about Josh Hill once he comes into the F1 picture??)

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 28 Jul 2011, 23:25

JeremyMcClean wrote:I doubt Senna is the next Deletraz, but what I do think is that Senna is the next Badoer. Just plain unlucky. I doubt he'll get the job. Better a driver that has experience than a driver which has zero experience (well, HRT doesn't really count). (Bruno) Senna is just a walking bank, he puts his uncle's name in shame...

Yes I said uncle. He doesn't have any of his genes, folks! (What are people going to say about Josh Hill once he comes into the F1 picture??)

Josh Hill isn't all that to be honest. Won't be long before he's given a test in F1 either. Kubica should stay away from the cockpit until pre-season, where he's given enough time to get back into the right frame of mind, bringing him back for the last couple of races won't help him or Renaults cause.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 29 Jul 2011, 00:45

Captain Hammer wrote: A team can only run four drivers in a season - this is what caught Sassetti out in 1991.

Sure about that? I have my doubts about that rule. I know it exists, but I don't think it was there in 91.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 29 Jul 2011, 01:09

JeremyMcClean wrote:I doubt Senna is the next Deletraz, but what I do think is that Senna is the next Badoer. Just plain unlucky. I doubt he'll get the job. Better a driver that has experience than a driver which has zero experience (well, HRT doesn't really count). (Bruno) Senna is just a walking bank, he puts his uncle's name in shame...

Yes I said uncle. He doesn't have any of his genes, folks! (What are people going to say about Josh Hill once he comes into the F1 picture??)

How does he put the name to shame? Bruno's name is a helper as much as it is a curse, it creates attention, but almost equally hate and disappointment because he didn't go all Ayrton-esque and score podiums in backmarker cars. He did the best possible in the HRT. It's not like he was all Nelson Piquet style.

I need a new sword now

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 29 Jul 2011, 08:05

JeremyMcClean wrote:Yes I said uncle. He doesn't have any of his genes, folks! (What are people going to say about Josh Hill once he comes into the F1 picture??)

He will have some, given that Ayrton's parents are Bruno's grandparents. A nephew will share about 25% of their genes with an uncle.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 29 Jul 2011, 12:27

Jordan192 wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:Yes I said uncle. He doesn't have any of his genes, folks! (What are people going to say about Josh Hill once he comes into the F1 picture??)

He will have some, given that Ayrton's parents are Bruno's grandparents. A nephew will share about 25% of their genes with an uncle.

Yeah, and there is no reason to assume he will show more than 25 % of Ayrton's talent...

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 29 Jul 2011, 13:03

First time in the car since February, and under 8 tenths off of Petrov. Look me in the eye and tell me that he's an untalented walking bank. He did better than a lot of other drivers could manage. Now, can we show Heidfield the door please? Pretty please?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 29 Jul 2011, 14:08

Peter wrote:First time in the car since February, and under 8 tenths off of Petrov. Look me in the eye and tell me that he's an untalented walking bank. He did better than a lot of other drivers could manage. Now, can we show Heidfield the door please? Pretty please?

What? 0.8 tenths of Petrov? Meaning about 1.5s from Kubica? Au contraire, my friend, that is mighty fast! :lol:

*

*Before the papayas start to fly in, I know it was only his first outing for many months, so I am joking and I know he might improve given more time, eventually.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 31 Jul 2011, 19:39

mario wrote:It's possible, but I would agree that it is unlikely, given the severity of Kubica's injuries. On a rational basis, if I were at Renault, I would not want to rusk Kubica into the cockpit, since there would be the risk of causing greater problems and delaying his return to the cockpit still further.

I have thought about that for a bit - I can see Boullier being very interested in getting Grosjean (the whole "pupil thing") or Senna (We're in the money...) into the cockpit for 2012. They need Petrov for his cash. Leaves three drivers for two cockpits. Lotus Renault, however, cannot afford to simply release Kubica because that would give them negative press that would make the whole Lotus vs. Lotus-debacle look like a planned advertising campaign. Therefore I wouldn't put it above them to force an early comeback of Kubica to use his presumably sub-par performance to give the "excuse" that he "doesn't have it" anymore for firing him.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 31 Jul 2011, 21:54

Klon wrote:
mario wrote:It's possible, but I would agree that it is unlikely, given the severity of Kubica's injuries. On a rational basis, if I were at Renault, I would not want to rusk Kubica into the cockpit, since there would be the risk of causing greater problems and delaying his return to the cockpit still further.

I have thought about that for a bit - I can see Boullier being very interested in getting Grosjean (the whole "pupil thing") or Senna (We're in the money...) into the cockpit for 2012. They need Petrov for his cash. Leaves three drivers for two cockpits. Lotus Renault, however, cannot afford to simply release Kubica because that would give them negative press that would make the whole Lotus vs. Lotus-debacle look like a planned advertising campaign. Therefore I wouldn't put it above them to force an early comeback of Kubica to use his presumably sub-par performance to give the "excuse" that he "doesn't have it" anymore for firing him.

That is awfully cynical of you isn't it? Sadly however I actually find that believable.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 31 Jul 2011, 22:22

It would be rather harsh of Renault to sack Heidfeld after they've just tried to cook him.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 31 Jul 2011, 22:25

Paul Hayes wrote:It would be rather harsh of Renault to sack Heidfeld after they've just tried to cook him.

They didn't try to cook him, he was fired.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 31 Jul 2011, 22:27

Klon wrote:
Paul Hayes wrote:It would be rather harsh of Renault to sack Heidfeld after they've just tried to cook him.

They didn't try to cook him, he got fired.

Methinks the Renault team got "fried" and "fired" mixed up!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 01 Aug 2011, 00:45

They need to replace Heidfeld. Even before his car became crispy around the edges, he was having another bad race.