Mclaren to run Honda mills in 2015 per BBC

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 04 Mar 2013, 15:32

http://f1droid.com/6Ur

Its a mobile link so I hope it works. But the BBC doesn't just make rumors up do they? I mean this is most likely legit right? How huge is this, and how out of left field!

HonoraryNortherner · Post by **HonoraryNortherner** » 04 Mar 2013, 15:46

Yeah I saw this article earlier today too, not quite sure what to make of it. It doesn't seem as if they're quoting a source per say, but I'd like to think the BBC don't just make things up. I'm a little suspicious that they haven't even qualified it with a "Eddie Jordan's cat's vet's sister's Milkman's postman's dog has heard" line.... They even quote Honda and McLaren sources who decline to comment or validate the article.

Plus I caught the beeb refering to Sauber as "BMW Sauber" in one of their articles acouple of weeks ago and commented on the fact, which lead to the hasty changing of the article.

I guess this is a wait until it's in Autosport kinda situation, although this rumour has been around for a little while. It would be interesting, but would Honda be willing to jump into F1 again after beeing burned badly last time?

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 04 Mar 2013, 15:47

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21655985

There's the regular link.

The rumours have floated around for a while, but I don't think anyone seriously considered anything would come of it. The BBC, whilst perhaps more likely to report a rumour than Autosport, don't just put up anything and everything so there must be some weight behind this. They don't specify where or when they obtained this information though, or where it came from, so I'm not completely convinced just yet.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 04 Mar 2013, 15:48

I say it's going to happen. Honda will go back to F1, and McLaren will return to Honda power for the first time since 1992. However, Martin Whitmarsh's harsh words are spot on: while the current economic climate isn't the idoneous for a change in engine regulations of such magnitude, if there's enough interest from OEMs, then by all means they should do it. And they shouldn't have doubts about it and postpone it out of the blue.

Post by **mario** » 04 Mar 2013, 16:55

HonoraryNortherner wrote:Yeah I saw this article earlier today too, not quite sure what to make of it. It doesn't seem as if they're quoting a source per say, but I'd like to think the BBC don't just make things up. I'm a little suspicious that they haven't even qualified it with a "Eddie Jordan's cat's vet's sister's Milkman's postman's dog has heard" line.... They even quote Honda and McLaren sources who decline to comment or validate the article.

Plus I caught the beeb refering to Sauber as "BMW Sauber" in one of their articles acouple of weeks ago and commented on the fact, which lead to the hasty changing of the article.

I guess this is a wait until it's in Autosport kinda situation, although this rumour has been around for a little while. It would be interesting, but would Honda be willing to jump into F1 again after beeing burned badly last time?

There were one or two whispers about McLaren supposedly contacting Honda about an engine deal a while ago, plus rumours that were in Racecar Engineering a few months ago that Honda had started a conceptual design on an F1 spec turbo engine. However, the main instigators of this rumour appear to be Auto Motor und Sport, who ran a story a couple of days ago claiming that McLaren were trying to secure a deal with Honda for 2015 and arrange a one year deal with Mercedes for 2014 to cover the gap (most of the information in the BBC article seems to be quite similar to that from AMuS).

Is the deal possible? Yes - I imagine that the two sides might be interested in such a deal for the marketing potential (particularly given Button's popularity in Japan). However, I would likewise want to see confirmation from another source - after all, Honda has sometimes shown interest in F1 only to later cancel the projects, and it has to be said that Honda have been struggling for the past few years.
Equally, would it necessarily be entirely in McLaren's interests to go with Honda too? Honda's V10 engines were reasonably competitive, but their V8 engines became increasingly uncompetitive over time (by the time of their departure at the end of 2008, they possibly had the worst engine in the entire field), so there is no guarantee that a Honda turbo engine would give them any sort of competitive advantage.

Divina_Galica · Post by **Divina_Galica** » 04 Mar 2013, 17:45

a) sounds possible, and
b) would be good to have another engine in F1

The bit I don't undersatnd though is the from 2015 bit. Where would McLaren get an engine, oops, sorry, power unit from in 2014 as I assume Merc wouldn't want to just supply for one season, and having two different installations in the first two years of the new formula wouldn't be ideal

DG

Post by **Ataxia** » 04 Mar 2013, 17:46

mario wrote:Equally, would it necessarily be entirely in McLaren's interests to go with Honda too? Honda's V10 engines were reasonably competitive, but their V8 engines became increasingly uncompetitive over time (by the time of their departure at the end of 2008, they possibly had the worst engine in the entire field), so there is no guarantee that a Honda turbo engine would give them any sort of competitive advantage.

Yes, but Honda are no slouches. I feel that their potential with the V8 was somewhat masked by two terrible chassis and perhaps coupled to another car would have delivered. In any case, if Honda are really going to dip a toe back into F1 they would be best off doing so with McLaren who have a thriving technological aspect to them. As engine supply has become more partnership based over the last few years, McLaren can definitely work with Honda to produce the best V6 they can in time for 2015. I wouldn't expect Honda to just suddenly go it alone.

This probably puts to bed the rumours of McLaren purchasing Cosworth though.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 04 Mar 2013, 18:15

Mclaren would also be able to offer Honda, potentially, a market in high-end performance cars if later editions of the MP4-12C and P1 have a Honda road unit in them.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 04 Mar 2013, 18:28

sswishbone wrote:Mclaren would also be able to offer Honda, potentially, a market in high-end performance cars if later editions of the MP4-12C and P1 have a Honda road unit in them.

An excellent point. What engines are McLaren currently using? They're certainly not from any major manufacturer as far as I'm aware, and McLaren don't have the capability to make them themselves, so by utilising Honda engines the road cars are likely to be far more reliable and driveable, thus increasing their desirability.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 04 Mar 2013, 18:40

AndreaModa wrote:
sswishbone wrote:Mclaren would also be able to offer Honda, potentially, a market in high-end performance cars if later editions of the MP4-12C and P1 have a Honda road unit in them.

An excellent point. What engines are McLaren currently using? They're certainly not from any major manufacturer as far as I'm aware, and McLaren don't have the capability to make them themselves, so by utilising Honda engines the road cars are likely to be far more reliable and driveable, thus increasing their desirability.

McLaren offered Honda to build engines for the F1 road car, but they turned it down and BMW made it instead, IIRC.

Post by **mario** » 04 Mar 2013, 18:42

AndreaModa wrote:
sswishbone wrote:Mclaren would also be able to offer Honda, potentially, a market in high-end performance cars if later editions of the MP4-12C and P1 have a Honda road unit in them.

An excellent point. What engines are McLaren currently using? They're certainly not from any major manufacturer as far as I'm aware, and McLaren don't have the capability to make them themselves, so by utilising Honda engines the road cars are likely to be far more reliable and driveable, thus increasing their desirability.

The engine they are using is designed and built by Ricardo, an independent mechanical engineering specialist (and is, very loosely, based on the engine that Nissan used in the R390 GT in the late 1990's).

Post by **Nuppiz** » 04 Mar 2013, 19:18

Well, as Cosworth are more than likely to not build a turbo unit, and PURE turned out to be pure bollocks, I'm all for new manufacturers joining in as engine suppliers. When I started watching F1, there were 6-7 different engine manufacturers, on top of which many of them were rebadged to bring even more variety in the series (remember Petronas, Mecachrome, Playlife, Supertec, Acer, European, Fondmetal and Asiatech?). Nowadays it's just Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes and Cosworth, with only three of them in contention for points (unless Marussia really pulls out something from the bag this season). Adding Honda to that list is only a good thing, and in my opinion McLaren-Honda sounds even more legendary that Williams-Renault.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 04 Mar 2013, 19:43

Nuppiz wrote:Nowadays it's just Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes and Cosworth, with only three of them in contention for points (unless Marussia really pulls out something from the bag this season).

I believe!

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 04 Mar 2013, 19:58

The fact Honda wasn't all that succesful in the 2000s is not really that valid. BAR didn't coax them enough to give their all, at least until 2003 when David Richards was running the show, and the V8 design couldn't have been that bad if they managed to win a race in 2006, put some very competitive performances together and manage to drag the underwhelming RA107/RA108 chassis to points.

Unlike some other rumors, this one has a good foundation. McLaren and Honda had a devastating partnership between 1988 and 1992, McLaren has the resources to match Honda's ability and ambition, they could indeed have a sinergy in the road car division (what about the new NSX being partly engineered by McLaren?) and McLaren has two options in their Mercedes-Benz contract to extend the partnership until either 2014 or 2015. They could take 2014 as a transitional year with Mercedes-Benz power while Honda gets their V6 ready and launch a serious attack in 2015 and beyond.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 04 Mar 2013, 20:16

According to the BBC article, McLaren's contract with Mercedes runs until the end of this year, with additional options for a one and two year extension. So the BBC's theory is that McLaren will take up the one year extension into 2014, and then switch to Honda in 2015. In a way, if it proves to be correct, it's a smart move. The point about McLaren loosing "factory" status with Mercedes has been well made, so the opportunity to enter into a partnership with a new manufacturer and re-gain that preferred factory status will be a boost for the team in the longer-term. Plus, by entering in 2015, it allows Honda to see where the existing three manufacturers make mistakes and can then design their own unit without these problems. I hope it all turns out to be true.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 04 Mar 2013, 22:12

Divina_Galica wrote:a) sounds possible, and
b) would be good to have another engine in F1

The bit I don't undersatnd though is the from 2015 bit. Where would McLaren get an engine, oops, sorry, power unit from in 2014 as I assume Merc wouldn't want to just supply for one season, and having two different installations in the first two years of the new formula wouldn't be ideal

DG

Doesn't Merc have a contract with McLaren for 2014? Still, I agree with you, seems kinda weird.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 05 Mar 2013, 10:36

I see this as beneficial for both parties involved, especially if McLaren will use Honda engines in their road cars.

This would also pretty much make Button a McLaren driver until he retires as he is very popular in Japan.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 05 Mar 2013, 11:24

Oh gawd, I foresee numerous montages of the McLaren-Honda 'glory days' at the start of 2015. Some affecting music, Ayrton and Alain in slo-mo, this crap writes itself...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Mar 2013, 11:52

CoopsII wrote:Oh gawd, I foresee numerous montages of the McLaren-Honda 'glory days' at the start of 2015. Some affecting music, Ayrton and Alain in slo-mo, this crap writes itself...

It could be worse. Imagine if "Yellow Helmet" Hamilton was still at McLaren...

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 05 Mar 2013, 12:03

CoopsII wrote:Oh gawd, I foresee numerous montages of the McLaren-Honda 'glory days' at the start of 2015. Some affecting music, Ayrton and Alain in slo-mo, this crap writes itself...

It'll be worse. As usual they will only focus on Senna, ignoring one of the greatest drivers of all time. HWNSNBM-freakin'-dammit!

Post by **mario** » 05 Mar 2013, 12:08

JeremyMcClean wrote:
Divina_Galica wrote:a) sounds possible, and
b) would be good to have another engine in F1

The bit I don't undersatnd though is the from 2015 bit. Where would McLaren get an engine, oops, sorry, power unit from in 2014 as I assume Merc wouldn't want to just supply for one season, and having two different installations in the first two years of the new formula wouldn't be ideal

DG

Doesn't Merc have a contract with McLaren for 2014? Still, I agree with you, seems kinda weird.

There is an option in the current contract McLaren have with Mercedes for them to run Mercedes engines until 2015 (the current contract runs out, IIRC, this year, but had the option to be extended to 2015) - however, as is the case from this year onwards, McLaren would be getting those engines on customer rather than works terms, which would mean having to pay full price for those engines yet having to deal with a slight reduction in support at the same time.

Benetton wrote:I see this as beneficial for both parties involved, especially if McLaren will use Honda engines in their road cars.

This would also pretty much make Button a McLaren driver until he retires as he is very popular in Japan.

Mind you, Button's current contract would probably see him at McLaren until he retires anyway (his current contract will last for a few more years, I believe, and he is one of the oldest drivers on the grid). Button's popularity in Japan, no doubt, would be attractive for Honda as much as for McLaren, whilst there is always the possibility of collaborative efforts in the manufacturing field too (assuming Honda would be willing to supply bespoke engines to McLaren for future cars), so there is perhaps some commercial incentive for such a deal.

On the other hand, I am still a little cautious about the idea of such a deal because of Honda's recent financial weaknesses and internal problems - a works F1 program would be very expensive, and by the sounds of things Honda would effectively have to bear the brunt of the full development costs if McLaren wants manufacturer status. That could be a pretty substantial bill to swallow (given the currently quoted prices for future engine costs, we could be talking about £100 million up front and several tens of millions in long term development at least), and I am not sure that the board of Honda would willingly spend that much money given their recent struggles.
Yes, Honda do seem a little more interested in F1 these days now that the new turbo engines do seem to be more certain, but any F1 program would appear to be conditional on the success of other programs, so it is by no means assured (the F1 program was suggested, by Racecar Engineering some time ago, to be conditional on the success of Honda's Formula Nippon program, since the rumoured conceptual design of an F1 spec engine was effectively a downsized version of the 2L V6 that Formula Nippon will be using in the future). Maybe it'll come about, but given the lack of verifiable sources for the rumours I am still a little doubtful.

DanielPT wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Oh gawd, I foresee numerous montages of the McLaren-Honda 'glory days' at the start of 2015. Some affecting music, Ayrton and Alain in slo-mo, this crap writes itself...

It could be worse. Imagine if "Yellow Helmet" Hamilton was still at McLaren...

They'll still probably play it up as much as possible - perhaps, given that Button is known to be a fan of Prost, they might end up with the same spin but a little more focussed on Prost instead (which, admittedly, would make for a change - there are always two sides to a story, but we've only been getting the views of one side for far too long recently).

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 05 Mar 2013, 16:43

mario wrote:They'll still probably play it up as much as possible - perhaps, given that Button is known to be a fan of Prost, they might end up with the same spin but a little more focussed on Prost instead (which, admittedly, would make for a change - there are always two sides to a story, but we've only been getting the views of one side for far too long recently).

It does appear to be a fact when it comes to big events that people are always more interested, morbidly perhaps, in the dead guy rather than the one thats still kicking. Im sure Prost is sensitive to the Senna family and, of course, being already perceived by some as a bad guy he could really make things worse but even so, if Prost really felt there was a massive injustice being dealt him he could put the record straight at any time. To me, one of the many things Prost and Senna have in common is that their legacy will remain intact for generations to come.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 05 Mar 2013, 16:50

Klon wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Oh gawd, I foresee numerous montages of the McLaren-Honda 'glory days' at the start of 2015. Some affecting music, Ayrton and Alain in slo-mo, this crap writes itself...

It'll be worse. As usual they will only focus on Senna, ignoring one of the greatest drivers of all time. HWNSNBM-freakin'-dammit!

I admire Gerhard Berger as much as the next man, but I would stop short of declaring him as one of the greatest drivers of all time.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Mar 2013, 16:55

Backmarker wrote:
Klon wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Oh gawd, I foresee numerous montages of the McLaren-Honda 'glory days' at the start of 2015. Some affecting music, Ayrton and Alain in slo-mo, this crap writes itself...

It'll be worse. As usual they will only focus on Senna, ignoring one of the greatest drivers of all time. HWNSNBM-freakin'-dammit!

I admire Gerhard Berger as much as the next man, but I would stop short of declaring him as one of the greatest drivers of all time.

I thought he was referring to Mika Häkkinen!

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 05 Mar 2013, 16:59

I thought he was referring to Mika Häkkinen!

Well, except for testing (and I'm not 100% that he did that), Mika never drove a McLaren Honda.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Mar 2013, 17:03

Backmarker wrote:I thought he was referring to Mika Häkkinen!

Well, except for testing (and I'm not 100% that he did that), Mika never drove a McLaren Honda.

I will quietly retire for today then (Somehow I though Hakkinen did at least a year in a McLaren Honda)...

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 05 Mar 2013, 18:10

DanielPT wrote:
Backmarker wrote:I thought he was referring to Mika Häkkinen!

Well, except for testing (and I'm not 100% that he did that), Mika never drove a McLaren Honda.

I will quietly retire for today then (Somehow I though Hakkinen did at least a year in a McLaren Honda)...

Mika Häkkinen never got his hands on a McLaren-Honda.

Post by **mario** » 06 Mar 2013, 08:32

As might be expected, Whitmarsh has now issued a rebuttal to the rumours linking McLaren to Honda in 2015 - in an interview with Sky Sports, he has stated that "What I can tell you is we have a contract with a long-standing partner, Mercedes-Benz, for 2013, 2014 and 2015. So we have a contract, they're our partners and we're going to try and win World Championships and races with them."

Of course, he does, later on in that interview, then go on to say that he does hope that other manufacturers will join the sport in the future, saying that the sport does need more engine suppliers (although, given that he is also head of FOTA, that is something that applies to the other teams as much as his own). The talk would therefore suggest that, if McLaren are looking at a potential future deal with Honda, it may be a little further into the future than currently speculated. http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... es-engines

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 06 Mar 2013, 09:10

Nothing different to Marios link but I post this one as they're the first to raid Google images for a historic McHonda picture.

http://www.racingfanatic.net/2013/03/ma ... ws-to.html

I have to say Senna does look effortlessly cool in this picture.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 06 Mar 2013, 18:01

Interesting... Be nice to have another engine manufacturer back in, given we're looking likely to be down to just three next year.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 15 May 2013, 09:46

Bringing back this topic to the top, Adam Cooper has a short update on the topic.

Post by **kevinbotz** » 15 May 2013, 10:46

Shizuka wrote:Bringing back this topic to the top, Adam Cooper has a short update on the topic.

Starting to feel slightly giddy with excitement.

Post by **mario** » 15 May 2013, 12:15

kevinbotz wrote:
Shizuka wrote:Bringing back this topic to the top, Adam Cooper has a short update on the topic.

Starting to feel slightly giddy with excitement.

Easy now - it depends on whether or not Honda can actually manufacture a competitive engine for 2015, and it also makes things very difficult for McLaren in 2014 as a result.

Mercedes have made it clear that, if McLaren are chasing a deal with Honda, that Mercedes will then do everything possible to prevent McLaren passing on information to Honda as a result, which therefore means that McLaren are likely to have very little technical support from Mercedes.
A works deal with Honda may help them from 2015 onwards, not least in terms of cash flow (they now have to pay Mercedes for their engines and that is taking a not inconsiderable chunk out of their budget), but it may mean that it hurts their competitiveness in 2014. They probably can't do worse than they are doing now, but it may be that they are out of the running for a second year in 2014 if they don't have Mercedes supporting their endeavours.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 15 May 2013, 12:22

And quite possibly that is why that certain Carlos Slim-backed Mexican is there at McLaren aside from his results

Divina_Galica · Post by **Divina_Galica** » 15 May 2013, 12:30

Another interesting question is who else might run Honda power units from 2015? Williams???

Honda would want to gain some (small) economies of scale by supplying more than one team...

DG

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 15 May 2013, 13:17

Divina_Galica wrote:Another interesting question is who else might run Honda power units from 2015? Williams???

Honda would want to gain some (small) economies of scale by supplying more than one team...

DG

Could be Enstone, who don't have the factory link with Renault any more.

Post by **mario** » 15 May 2013, 14:01

Shizuka wrote:And quite possibly that is why that certain Carlos Slim-backed Mexican is there at McLaren aside from his results

The prospect of sponsorship from the corporations under the Slim family is possible, especially with Vodafone walking away from McLaren (and Whitmarsh did indicate that commercial considerations did play some part in the choice of Perez). That said, Perez's upturn in form does suggest that McLaren were perhaps not only looking at that when they made their decision - we will have to wait and see how it pans out.

Backmarker wrote:
Divina_Galica wrote:Another interesting question is who else might run Honda power units from 2015? Williams???

Honda would want to gain some (small) economies of scale by supplying more than one team...

DG

Could be Enstone, who don't have the factory link with Renault any more.

It is not entirely clear if Honda is actually looking at supplying other outfits on the grid or whether McLaren would even want them to do that - the talks so far have only linked Honda to McLaren and indicated that McLaren expect full works support from Honda. It might be that McLaren do not want Honda to supply a rival team - equally, it is possible that the other teams might be a little reluctant to take a gamble on an engine that has not been confirmed and won't run in anger until at least a year later than everybody else.

Now, it is true that some outfits may well be looking for a new engine supplier in the near future - with Toro Rosso looking for a Renault engine, Renault Sport may be overstretched - they have said in the past that they would not want more than four customers, but they would be trying to supply Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Lotus, Williams and Caterham. Unless they are able to accommodate that extra team, something has to give and one of those outfits might be losing its engines - although, in the case of Williams, there were a few people wondering if, due to Toto Wolff's position at Mercedes and his not inconsiderable stake in Williams, whether there might be an attempt to broker a deal between Williams and Mercedes in the future.

There aren't that many other options, it would seem, for Honda to try - it's expected that Sauber will continue with Ferrari and Marussia have indicated that they are likely to go for Ferrari's engines (they really only have the option of either Ferrari or Mercedes if Renault already have more customers than they want), whilst Force India already has a contract in place with Mercedes (Force India are the only customer team that has definitely announced their engines for 2014 onwards).

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 16 May 2013, 07:41

AAAAAAND it's official!

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 16 May 2013, 07:49

Shizuka wrote:AAAAAAND it's official!

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 16 May 2013, 07:58

Button has confirmed it..if only via twitter. Tried to quote his tweet but kept getting a error message.