Mateschitz attacks current regulations, threatens FIA?

[Londoner]

http://kurier.at/sport/motorsport/mateschitz-im-interview-oeffentliche-praesenz-die-zeit-ist-mir-zu-schade/57.148.044

Roughly translated, Mateschitz isn't a fan of the new regulations. He's also warning that Red Bull will not stick around in F1 indefinitely which, considering the timing of said interview, seems to come across as a threat towards the FIA, what with the fuel sensor appeal next month.

This could get ugly.

English link

[jackanderton]

FIA should call that bluff pretty convincingly.

[CoopsII]

Sorry Mr Mateschitz, that approach only works if you're Ferrari. Close the door on your way out.

[FMecha]

Sorry Mr Mateschitz, that approach only works if you're Ferrari. Close the door on your way out.

"Red Bull International Assistance" is a thing since Silverstone tyre controversy last year (iirc) you know

[dr-baker]

Sorry Mr Mateschitz, that approach only works if you're Ferrari. Close the door on your way out.

"Red Bull International Assistance" is a thing since Silverstone tyre controversy last year (iirc) you know

Thing is, doesn't work quite so well as a joke:

FIA = Federation International de l'Automobile
FIA = Ferrari International Assistance
RBIA - Red Bull International Assistance

See the difference?

[CoopsII]

Thing is, doesn't work quite so well as a joke:

FIA = Federation International de l'Automobile
FIA = Ferrari International Assistance
RBIA - Red Bull International Assistance

See the difference?

Blimey Doc, that was quite cutting for you. Been on the Red Bull yourself

[DanielPT]

Sorry Mr Mateschitz, that approach only works if you're Ferrari. Close the door on your way out.

Thing is, they support 2 teams in F1. That should offset the fact that they are not Ferrari a bit. But it is also a fact that Red Bull won't stay forever in the sport as it is not their reason to exist. Red Bull should have plenty of buyers specially if they keep Newey. As for Toro Rosso it will be harder... I do dislike this kind of approach. Win and everything is ok, lose and you are blackmailing the sport into suiting the rules for you. That sucks.

[Ferrim]

And people wonder why Red Bull are disliked... Of course they won't be around indefinitely, that's exactly why the FIA shouldn't make too much to appease them.

[Ataxia]

If Red Bull were indeed planning to go, then perhaps the budget cap forecast for the future will lose one of its bigger adversaries.

I used to have a bit of respect for Mateschitz, since he was usually the sensible one in the Red Bull camp; with staff like Helmut Marko shooting their mouths off to cry foul at every little point of consternation, Mateschitz usually had a more objective view. However, this is a thinly-veiled and misguided attempt ahead of their fuel-flow hearing to throw the FIA off of upholding their disqualification. He complains about the political atmosphere of F1 and the FIA, but considering the context of this comment he's just being rather hypocritical.

Everybody else managed to stick to the FIA's sensor guidelines, except Red Bull. I'm fully aware that everyone's trying to push the envelope as much as possible, but Red Bull just need to accept defeat and move on. If you're going to cheat, cheat in a manner nobody can detect.

[Sublime_FA11C]

Except he didn't threaten to leave F1, he gave a vague anwser and defended his team's decision to take a performance benefit rather than a hit. If Red Bull pulled out, they would sell the teams that's all. The staff would remain in F1. Not even a billionaire would just park his cars and go home.

They will lose the case, but if they honestly belive they are right, which i belive they do, then they will fight till the end. Then lose. :)

EDIT - Oh unless they are trying to force the FIA to admit that RB was DQ for not breaching the FIA regulations but rather for ignoring the race director's advice, which is not a rule. That is still a vain hope because in all cases stewards and race director have final say in all matters, wheter covered by rules or not. Heck, they coul DQ all cars not painted red if they wanted to. And Chilton would score his 1st podium! \o/

[go_Rubens]

And people wonder why Red Bull are disliked... Of course they won't be around indefinitely, that's exactly why the FIA shouldn't make too much to appease them.

Exactly. Well said, as as far as I'm concerned, Red Bull are only in the sport for selling drinks. Of course they won't be around forever if the team is about marketing their energy drink. If they really don't see the regulations fit for being able to get screen time and sell, then they may just pull out and put it up for sale.

As for the appeal, I feel Mateschitz is really in over his head. Well, RBR are in over their heads. Realistically, they should have got a reprimand or a fine for not obeying their orders. Their DQ will likely stand, as not only is Mateschitz being an inglorious bastard (excuse the horrible pun) to the media, how would Red Bull be able to prove their reasings are right? As far as I'm concerned, The fuel flow is supposed to be measured through the sensors. They may be unreliable, but everyone but RBR and Ricciardo used them and came away clean. Are Red Bull so set at overachieving on race weekends when they were expecting much less that they completely ruin their own reputation, or like to try experiments to see if they can get over the rules? I even wonder whether Red Bull are actually getting away easy thanks to FOM's heavy bias for the top teams in just about every subject.

Well, there is one thing to make of this, I guess:

Making fools of yourself or your company won't sell your products.

[watka]

I actually have said before that I thought Red Bull were in the sport more than just for the marketing as I can't imagine that the cost of running a Formula 1 team means an equivalent level of sales. However with this kind of tantrum, I suspect my view was wrong.

[Aerospeed]

Please file under P for Publicocrap - this is only there because enough people dislike Red Bull for them to read his argument. Then again, this confirms yet again that the only problem with Red Bull is their shoddy PR department. Issuing threats (or at least implying that you're issuing threats) won't earn you any fans.

[CoopsII]

Having thought about it for a bit maybe some of us have been a bit guilty of jumping to put the boot into Red Bull because its Red Bull.

Whilst the comments attributed to Mateschitz could undoubtedly be considered as, shall we say, whiney bullshit, Ive read similar comments by team principals over the years when they've maybe gone down the wrong road with the technical regulations or had some results go against them. Im thinking of Di Montezemolo, Dennnis and current Mouth-For-Hire Briatore.

Yes its dumb but its not a new approach.

[DanielPT]

Having thought about it for a bit maybe some of us have been a bit guilty of jumping to put the boot into Red Bull because its Red Bull.

Whilst the comments attributed to Mateschitz could undoubtedly be considered as, shall we say, whiney bullshit, Ive read similar comments by team principals over the years when they've maybe gone down the wrong road with the technical regulations or had some results go against them. Im thinking of Di Montezemolo, Dennnis and current Mouth-For-Hire Briatore.

Yes its dumb but its not a new approach.

Well, in my case, that is not it I must say. I don't like threats like this from Red Bull just like I didn't liked when Ferrari did it. I suspect it is like this with some people also. They also only try to influence rules whenever they are losing, much like Ferrari a decade ago. And back then Ferrari had the benefit of being Ferrari and having a lot of fans with them which I don't think it is the Red Bull case because they are not around for that long. As for the other two cases you mentioned, I don't remember Dennis and Briatore issuing such a threat. Sure they moaned, but it was just for the sake of it.

[Rusujuur]

I honestly think that only 3 teams are there for the racing, and they are Ferrari, McLaren and Williams. You can count Sauber in that group at this point in time, but I am afraid they wont be around for a long time if their situation is as it is. We have seen the likes of Jordan go and I think Sauber will be the next and last of these teams. The trio have alot more going for them then just their team, they are all part of the racing industry so to say. They have all built a business around the team that far surpaces the actual racing and that also brings in profit.

The rest of the field are much less conected to F1 as a brand and can easily be bought or sold at the whim of their owners. Their financial situation quite often depends on the willingness of the owners to spend their own money just for the "fun" of it. In case of Red Bull the money that has gone into building Red Bull & Toro Rosso (+ multidudes of lower level sponsorship) to be what they are has definetly been more expensive compared to the amount of drinks they have sold. Dieter just really liked F1 and motorsports and decided to use his wealth there, partly just for "fun". If the fun-factor runs out there is no reason for them to continue. From a marketing point of view they could sell RB and focus on Toro Rosso or just be a title sponsor for another team and get much of the exposure they have now for a fraction of the cost. It still seems to be fun for Mallia and Lopez but not so much for Fernandez. From recent times we also have Branson trying it out but finding it wasn't for him very quickly.

Another thing is also challenge. Quite many very good businessmen like a good challenge and when they have achieved what they set out to do they lose interest. Just like the drivers and engineers in the sport the owners also want new challenges but for them it is mostly outside of F1. Just like Newey toying with the idea of building a yacht or Kimi going into Rally.

So I think we should't hold it against Dieter for being grumpy. He doesn't like the current formula and so he might be thinking of leaving. Well, so what. There are others who might want to pick it up. If Red Bull went up for sale I would think there would be many potential buyers. Maybe a manufacturer might want to give it a go as they wouldn't have to start from scratch. A bit like Brawn and Mercedes, especially if the Mercs go on a rampage this year and remain succesful for some time. Maybe another billionaire will step out of the shadows and embrace his love for F1. I would imagine some IT tycoons might like this higly technical sport.

In any case, the time of "in it for live or untill bancrupsy" teams was over a long time ago. I'd say the final blow was the manufacturer era of 2000s but it was going this way already earlier as the costs are just too high to run a team purely on enthusiasm.

[girry]

We're confusing Red Bull the Fizzy Drink Company, and Arden Racing the Racing Team here. Arden Racing is in F1 for the motorsport and fields the Newey cars. Red Bull is just a sponsor who also happens to own the team.

every Racing Team in F1 is in F1 for the motorsport.

[Rusujuur]

We're confusing Red Bull the Fizzy Drink Company, and Arden Racing the Racing Team here. Arden Racing is in F1 for the motorsport and fields the Newey cars. Red Bull is just a sponsor who also happens to own the team.

every Racing Team in F1 is in F1 for the motorsport.

Well, not exactly, RB is more of an amalgam of Stewar->Jaguar outfit in Milton Keynes and Arden is a separate entity running from Prodrive facilities. They are both financed by Red Bull and managed by Horner but the ownership and operations are separate. At least that is how I understand.

But yes, you are correct in saying that every racing team is in the sport for the racing but they are managed differently now. In the "olden times" you had a progression of a team rising through the ranks and then going for it in F1. Currently the teams and facilities are rather fixed and the ownership is rotated around. If RB would leave then the Milton Keynes based Racin outfit could not continue on it's own, it has to find a new owner and a new source of income. That new owner however is not 100% racing oriented, they have some other motivation. So their stance in the internal F1 politics is much more short-term compared to the trio I mentioned above.

[jackanderton]

Does anyone really expect Red Bull to risk being known as the brand who pack up their toys and go home when the going gets tough?

Red Bull - It Makes You Whiny And Want To Give Up*



*Mark Webber no's this feel

[mario]

Having thought about it for a bit maybe some of us have been a bit guilty of jumping to put the boot into Red Bull because its Red Bull.

Whilst the comments attributed to Mateschitz could undoubtedly be considered as, shall we say, whiney bullshit, Ive read similar comments by team principals over the years when they've maybe gone down the wrong road with the technical regulations or had some results go against them. Im thinking of Di Montezemolo, Dennnis and current Mouth-For-Hire Briatore.

Yes its dumb but its not a new approach.

It is certainly true that most other major teams have, at some point or other, made threats to withdraw or otherwise destabilise the sport as a way of pressurising those in power, such that nothing is different in that regard.

The same cannot be said of the impending tribunal though. What is different is that Red Bull are doing something that no team has done before and is challenging the legality of the FIA's Technical Directives (and, implicitly, the ability of the FIA to create regulations) in a direct manner. Their argument is that the FIA's regulations only specify the fuel flow limit, but not the means by which the fuel flow is measured - the instructions on the use of the FIA's fuel flow meter are in a separate Technical Directive.

Now, Red Bull are arguing that the Technical Directive, which is intended to instruct the teams on how the FIA would interpret the regulations, are in a bit of a legal grey area - nobody has tested the legality of those instruments since, until now, there has been a "gentleman's agreement" between the FIA and the teams for the best part of a decade that agreed not to contest the Technical Directives as a way of keeping a lid on some of the arguments that were taking place between the teams and a way of preventing overuse of the FIA's own tribunals.

What Red Bull are essentially saying is that Technical Directives are not legally binding documents and, therefore, they do not have to use the FIA's own fuel metering system to measure the fuel flow rate: instead, they are free to use their own measurement system to determine whether or not they exceeded the 100kg/h flow rate. http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/24239 ... ing-appeal

In that sense, the nature of Red Bull's appeal is, in some ways, a much more serious challenge to the authority of the FIA than anything we have seen before - we've seen di Montezemolo or Ron Dennis throw their weight around with the FIA, but never seen them actually directly attack the very means by which the FIA runs the sport.

[DanielPT]

It is certainly true that most other major teams have, at some point or other, made threats to withdraw or otherwise destabilise the sport as a way of pressurising those in power, such that nothing is different in that regard.

The same cannot be said of the impending tribunal though. What is different is that Red Bull are doing something that no team has done before and is challenging the legality of the FIA's Technical Directives (and, implicitly, the ability of the FIA to create regulations) in a direct manner. Their argument is that the FIA's regulations only specify the fuel flow limit, but not the means by which the fuel flow is measured - the instructions on the use of the FIA's fuel flow meter are in a separate Technical Directive.

Now, Red Bull are arguing that the Technical Directive, which is intended to instruct the teams on how the FIA would interpret the regulations, are in a bit of a legal grey area - nobody has tested the legality of those instruments since, until now, there has been a "gentleman's agreement" between the FIA and the teams for the best part of a decade that agreed not to contest the Technical Directives as a way of keeping a lid on some of the arguments that were taking place between the teams and a way of preventing overuse of the FIA's own tribunals.

What Red Bull are essentially saying is that Technical Directives are not legally binding documents and, therefore, they do not have to use the FIA's own fuel metering system to measure the fuel flow rate: instead, they are free to use their own measurement system to determine whether or not they exceeded the 100kg/h flow rate. http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/24239 ... ing-appeal

In that sense, the nature of Red Bull's appeal is, in some ways, a much more serious challenge to the authority of the FIA than anything we have seen before - we've seen di Montezemolo or Ron Dennis throw their weight around with the FIA, but never seen them actually directly attack the very means by which the FIA runs the sport.

I've found this on the commentaries to the Sky Sports linked news piece:

Quote from Technical Regs: "5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h." ... "5.2.5 Cars must be fitted with homologated sensors which provide all necessary signals to the FIA data logger in order to verify the requirements above are being respected." ... "5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger. 5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank."

I still wonder why are they so confident that they will win the appeal, but I'm no lawyer. It seems to clearly say that the sensor must be homologated.

[Sublime_FA11C]

In my opinion for Red Bull's claims to have any effect, they would have to be joined by a majority or even by all other teams. That is not going to happen. The FIA Technical Directives have up to now been completely non-binding, yet all teams followed them because these Directives keep Regulations steady and free from haphazard and constant changes or clarifications, and because the Directives supplement the Regulations by further explaining them in case of vague or poor wording. No team wanted to butt heads with Techincal Directives because they are overall usefull and rarely put one team at a disadvantage.

Red Bull may claim they were disadvantaged and this is to an extent true. But the fact they lost points due to a Directive (which is almost illegal because they did not violate any rule) is largely their own fault. They made a risky choice and the likely penalty was assigned. Now they will try to weasel out of punishment, but they will be very alone in this matter.

Politics aside, the other teams will not support Red Bull because challenging Technical Directives both weakens the power of FIA stewards and rule enforcers, and creates opportunities for any team to ignore Directives and interpret the Rules the way they see fit, leading to more disputes and setting a terrible precendent. While individually each team would like the opportunity to take advantage, collectively they would like to see NO team have such opportunity. So i belive it will be FIA + all teams vs Red Bull on this issue.

I still think the FIA are to blame for the screwup, but attacking Techical Directives further weakens FIA and will not be accepted. If RB get really stubborn about it, then so will all the other teams.

As for the line Mateschitz mentioned, that would need to be crossed before he decided to pull out of F1. That may be a reference to the 2005 regulation changes which were designed with the explicit purpose of finally destroying the Ferrari domination. Red Bull have never enjoyed such superiority but still they won everything in sight for several years. The 2014 regulation upheaval was designed with the purpose of reshuffleing the grid, not specifically to target RB. I don't think he feels threatened, but i'm sure he would not enjoy his efforts being destroyed by rule changes.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Is there any difference between the fuel flow sensor the FIA uses and say, the method the FIA uses to test front wing deflection? If red bull win their appeal, what's to stop them from saying their front wing deflection tests are more accurate than the FIA's methods? Or how about the thickness of the plank? Or any other measurement on or of the cars that the FIA performs. This seems like it could be a bigger deal than I (and many others) initially thought. It really makes me hope that red bull loses their appeal.

[Sublime_FA11C]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Graeme Lowdon expressed a similar view - http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... peals-2014 - which is why i'm thinking Red Bull have no chance in hell of winning even if they are technically correct. All the teams allways have a chance to challenge/appeal penalties or Directives but generally find it most convenient to accept.

Red Bull are pissy because this particular Directive hurt them while it had no effect on some of their rivals. Mercedes were quick enough even with the fuel flow penalty and Ferrari were hurt by their electrical issues more than the fuel flow would have hurt them. McLaren and Williams presumably lost a little performance so if Red Bull win the appeal to keep their 2nd place, McLaren would most likely apeal that decision and fight to keep their positions. Some reckon Ricciardo would have likely finished either slightly ahead of or behind Alonso had RB obeyed the Directive.

Even if Red Bull are correct that FIA fuel flow equipment is faulty, and that the Directives are not Regulations, and even if they can 100% prove they did not exceed the limit, reinstating Ricciardo would be unfair to McLaren who accepted the performance penalty and had lower fuel flow than RB. And it would open the door to any team that wanted to use their own sets of weights and measurements.