Grand Prix Rejects

Hello everyone, hope we're all staying alert as per the advice from Boris Johnson.

This lockdown has proven to be the best thing for GPR content since the heady days of 2017! Born from fruitful discussions on our Discord channel, Aislabie has cast a critical eye on the many circuits that have played host to Formula One in the last 70 years, and came up with a top 10 name and shame list, featuring choices which will no doubt cause some controversy. The first part is now live, which you can read with your mid-morning breakfast!

The Ten Worst Formula One World Championship Circuits Of All Time – Part One

Trying to guess what will be in part two. I assume India, Korea and Le Mans Bugatti will be there. Possibly Valencia too. Not sure what the other track might be.

I'm liking the article so far, good work!

I was watching a video about this same subject the other day, and the circuit that I thought was a dead cert to be in there... was merely an "honourable mention".

I wonder if that circuit will make the GP Rejects top 5? I'll reveal what it was when the rest of the article is published.

Yas Marina and Marina Bay could possibly feature. Strip away the "OMG! It's under the lights!" aspect and you've got two tracks where you don't really get great racing. Yas Marina is so bad that Alonso lost the WDC because he couldn't overtake a midfield runner on it, and Lewis was able to intentionally slow down Rosberg without being immediately overtaken.

Aida for being in a narrow and in the middle of nowhere may feature in the top 5 too. (Although it's quite agreeable to race on in something slower than an F1 car)

Enforcer wrote:Aida for being in a narrow and in the middle of nowhere may feature in the top 5 too. (Although it's quite agreeable to race on in something slower than an F1 car)

So suitable for MasterCard Lola and Life then.

dr-baker wrote:Not sure what the other track might be.

AVUS or Zeltweg seem like good candidates.

Featuring copious amounts of poor design, controversy and outright insanity, the second half of Aislabie's article has now gone live. We expect this to generate a good amount of discussion, so fire away.

The Ten Worst Formula One World Championship Circuits Of All Time - Part Two

East Londoner wrote:Featuring copious amounts of poor design, controversy and outright insanity, the second half of Aislabie's article has now gone live. We expect this to generate a good amount of discussion, so fire away.

The Ten Worst Formula One World Championship Circuits Of All Time - Part Two

Definitely agree with the Montjuic and AVUS choices! And I can understand your argument for Old Spa, although, as Montjuic demonstrates, many circuits of the time lacked what we now consider adequate safety features, it was not unique to Spa alone.

I got Yas Marina right. I should've thought of Zeltweg and AVUS, but I was being too 'recent' in my thought process.

I get the Spa pick. It's best known for being lethally dangerous in the cars in that drove it and loads of people got killed. Not really a reason for a track to be good.

And here's the thing: if you drive it on a sim in any F1 or LMP car made after 1980, with things like downforce and big fat slicks, it's actually not a hard track to drive apart from Masta. So if it was somehow still used, it actually wouldn't be that interesting.

Modern Spa is far, far better in every respect.

dinizintheoven wrote:I was watching a video about this same subject the other day, and the circuit that I thought was a dead cert to be in there... was merely an "honourable mention".

I wonder if that circuit will make the GP Rejects top 5? I'll reveal what it was when the rest of the article is published.

And here, it came in at number one.

And the other one of the first two tracks I thought of when watching that video ranked third...

Regarding number 1 I could understand why AVUS was revived. The tensions in living in a city split in two and surrounded by another (not very friendly) country must of been stressful, and holding a Grand Prix in Berlin would be a way to relieve the tension. Thankfully saner heads prevailed and the German Grand Prix moved elsewhere, somewhere more safe, or at least as safe as F1 was in the 1950s

Good job with this list, I enjoyed reading about each track! I assume Bugatti circuit and Charade where in consideration but not picked?

F1 never raced at the original original Spa. And I thought that that reason for AVUS being shortened was a myth.

Nitpicks aside, I pretty much agree with the list, all I think I'd do is reorder it a little. With the reasoning explained, all the picks make sense. I thought Zeltweg would be first with its four unique corners, because as it turns out AVUS is literally that forgettable.

Couple of minor edits to the pieces, firstly I've been informed that we did indeed put down the long-debunked reason for AVUS being shortened on the article. This has now been rectified.

Also, we've received boatloads of complaints from our Wallonian members regarding the "lorry depot" at Nivelles-Baulers, as it is in fact a TEC bus depot, and if there's one thing Wallonia takes seriously it is their public bus operator. We just hope you can forgive us for such a blunder.

Thanks for this - a really enjoyable read .

Yas Marina in my view isnt that bad as a layout , and the non-F1 categories seem to cope with it quite well in terms of finding a way to race each other .
Even F1 - in 2012 Vettel started in the pit lane and finished 3rd , passing cars on track (as well as in the pits), and there is some passing .
But yes - given the money available , it has to be seen as an open goal comprehensively missed!

Completely agree with old Spa ( and maybe old Hockenheim with hardly any real corners and just an opportunity to kill yourself as you evaluate your machine's power and drag coefficient against the others)

Terrific stuff - thanks

Talking about Abu Dhabi I don't know if that hotel was designed to be exactly where it is and Tilke would have been advised to take that route under it.

As the marina area is as it is then it needed to have a slow section before or after the underpass.

Thanks for the great article. I love that topic.

Personally, I would have had to give Sochi the benefit of the doubt since it had not been long on the calendar when my attention turned away from F1 when the dominance of one local team organisation that likes painting their cars silver had started to make it slightly boring. The one race I saw from Sochi, probably the 1st one, was pretty enjoyable.

I have never watched a race at Nivelles since that happened in another era. However, that Bahrain Endurance race was a complete bore and they did the only sensible thing when they went back to the original layout.

Caesars Palace is just Caesars Palace, no more and no less, and it would not be Caesars Palace if it were not mentioned on these kinds of lists. It is kind of like the original Mickey Mouse Track and therefore, I like it because I have a thing for weird, conceptual tracks. And did I mention it is Caesars Palace? The place where, to leave the track after a race, spectators reportedly and inevitably had to walk through the hall of the casino. Tunneling a crowd of sweaty F1 fans through a tight area filled with bored people in front of slot machines must have been a nightmare in terms of crowd management. But that is Caesars Palace. Or was, for that matter.

The Dallas story has been most interesting to me of all of those, especially the fact that it fell apart during the weekend of the race. I remember an IndyCar race weekend in the last decade when that happened at the Belle Isle street circuit in Detroit. A track falling apart is just the right reason to include it on such a list.

Other tracks which have probably been considered for the Top 5 include that Tilke street circuit in a country with no motorsport history in a city that has never been built and that was in a location fairly remote and not a city at all. I cannot remember the name. Yeongam maybe. I remember reports from that race quoting drivers that this felt like racing through a building site.

Also, AVUS should be mentioned because of the mistakes in the construction of the banked corners and the dangers that came from these.

Maybe, the Zeltweg Airfield gets a mention as a boring layout.

The new (current) Hockenheim probably does not get mentioned in the Top 5 because it does produce great racing action at times in front of the Mercedes Tribune. Yet, it is just bland in comparison to its predecessor. That hiking path towards the old Ostkurve looks very inviting for everyone who is both into racing and hiking.

And Valencia Marina, a street circuit built annually in a city which already had a permanent circuit with an FIA Grade 1A license, would be my choice for the most rejectful track. It wasn't just a waste of money to build, it was also a waste of money for those fans who got grandstand tickets for seats that were located so low that they couldn't even see the track behind the barriers. Also, the most memorable race from that circuit was when Luca Badoer in his comeback for Ferrari received a drivethrough penalty three times in a row - for pitlane speeding I think it was. Tilke learned a hard lesson here: meandering "straights" which invite for swerving do not invite for overtaking but just for swerving. It is arguably his worst track. And it has since been fallen into disrepair and looted as well.

We will see if other one-off or three-off circuits get a mention. But dangerous ancient places like the woods of Bremgarten and Clermont-Ferrand with the many stones cars would spray into the air by getting just a little off track, and Montjuich Park with its near-unassembled guardrails will need to be mentioned somewhere as well.
In the light of these, the bore that Sochi might have become is rather tolerable for a distant spectator sitting behind a screen.

Glad to see Yas Marina on there, dreadful circuit.

Thought Phoenix might have been on it, but I suppose it has to be exempted on the basis that Nigel Mansell was outqualified by a Eurobrun there.

Yannick wrote:The new (current) Hockenheim probably does not get mentioned in the Top 5 because it does produce great racing action at times in front of the Mercedes Tribune. Yet, it is just bland in comparison to its predecessor. That hiking path towards the old Ostkurve looks very inviting for everyone who is both into racing and hiking.

There does seem to be this rather peculiar split between the public interest in the Hockenheimring and the attitude from the drivers and teams that raced there.

Fans seem to have enjoyed the circuit for its reputation as a "car breaker" and for the high speeds, but conversely the drivers themselves don't really seem to have enjoyed it. There was the clip during one of the old podcasts of Hunt complaining about the "Noah's Ark" effect, where cars were coming round two by two in one race, or Brundle talking about how he was bored in most races because most of the circuit presented relatively little challenge, or interest, to the driver.

There were also those journalists who, in their reports, seemed to find the Hockenheimring similarly wearisome - there was one article by Jenkinson where he commented about the "monotonous dullness" of the circuit, of slate grey skies and dark backdrops that seemed to desaturate and suck the colour and life out of everything, particularly if the high temperatures left the circuit marooned in an island of listless heat.

I wonder if people would look on the races at the old Hockenheimring in quite the same way if they had played out with modern day levels of reliability.

mario wrote:.

I wonder if people would look on the races at the old Hockenheimring in quite the same way if they had played out with modern day levels of reliability.

I wonder if that is a factor why the new Hockenheim is not seen in the same light as the previous version.

Those are some interesting points you raise about the old Hockenheim.

When I wrote my previous posting, I had not noticed the 2nd part of the article had already been online.
Having read it now, "old Spa" fills the spot of the "dangerous old and long track" mainly due to that weekend of horror it hosted. It's just sad there was so little safety (if at all) back in the day.

The "winner" takes the cake fully deservedly.

Can't disagree with most of the Top 10 list, though I also think Zolder may have found its way into the 'also rans' section, if only for the 2 disastrous consecutive races, the sheer processional nature of many of the races, and (unless I've misremembered this) that drivers and journos had about as much enthusiasm for it as the old Hockenheim for similar reasons.

If the old Hockenheim was in the desert, everyone would've hated it.

Barbazza wrote:Can't disagree with most of the Top 10 list, though I also think Zolder may have found its way into the 'also rans' section, if only for the 2 disastrous consecutive races, the sheer processional nature of many of the races, and (unless I've misremembered this) that drivers and journos had about as much enthusiasm for it as the old Hockenheim for similar reasons.

I live close to Zolder, can confirm, it produces shitty racing for almost all categories. Only endurance somewhat works but teams hate it because it's hard on the brakes and gearboxes. The paddock and pits is still super cramped, not as much as in the old days but still a lot. The endless amount of almost 90 degrees corners, chicanes and short straights feels very repetitive to drive on and to look at. If it werent for the forest, the bolderberg hill in the background and the albert canal lying next to it giving it some charm, it would be hated a lot.

This wrote:

Barbazza wrote:Can't disagree with most of the Top 10 list, though I also think Zolder may have found its way into the 'also rans' section, if only for the 2 disastrous consecutive races, the sheer processional nature of many of the races, and (unless I've misremembered this) that drivers and journos had about as much enthusiasm for it as the old Hockenheim for similar reasons.

I live close to Zolder, can confirm, it produces shitty racing for almost all categories. Only endurance somewhat works but teams hate it because it's hard on the brakes and gearboxes. The paddock and pits is still super cramped, not as much as in the old days but still a lot. The endless amount of almost 90 degrees corners, chicanes and short straights feels very repetitive to drive on and to look at. If it werent for the forest, the bolderberg hill in the background and the albert canal lying next to it giving it some charm, it would be hated a lot.

I take it it would be very difficult to renovate and change the layout, almost as difficult as Zandvoort?

CaptainGetz12 wrote:

This wrote:

Barbazza wrote:Can't disagree with most of the Top 10 list, though I also think Zolder may have found its way into the 'also rans' section, if only for the 2 disastrous consecutive races, the sheer processional nature of many of the races, and (unless I've misremembered this) that drivers and journos had about as much enthusiasm for it as the old Hockenheim for similar reasons.

I live close to Zolder, can confirm, it produces shitty racing for almost all categories. Only endurance somewhat works but teams hate it because it's hard on the brakes and gearboxes. The paddock and pits is still super cramped, not as much as in the old days but still a lot. The endless amount of almost 90 degrees corners, chicanes and short straights feels very repetitive to drive on and to look at. If it werent for the forest, the bolderberg hill in the background and the albert canal lying next to it giving it some charm, it would be hated a lot.

I take it it would be very difficult to renovate and change the layout, almost as difficult as Zandvoort?

On the main straight it's pushed to a somewhat steep hill, so it's unlikely, on the next side pushed towards the albert canal (would probably take 20 to 30 years to get the paperwork done, knowing belgium...), then the back straight theres a residential area, there will be so much complaints that this isn't possible, so in theory, only between the Terlamen-turn and the Bolderberg-turn, some extension would be possible. But that's probably a nature zone... Between the straight between the Rindt and Ickx curve, there is some space to push the track closer to the hill, so they could tackle to overtaking problem by putting the Ickx-chicane closer to the Bolderberg-turn and get rid of the Rindt Chicane altogether or at least make the exit of the Bolderberg smoother. . This would by no means make the track more exciting though. To solve the problem of the cramped pitlane would be nearly impssible. In theory the Rindt-Ickx straight could be used, but that would require removing the camping area in the middle of the track. If the track were designed as a figure 8, it would be a hella more fun. (and its not like Hugenholz hasn't designed another track like that...)

Just got round to reading now. Very interesting, especially about the older tracks I didn't know much about. A constant reminder of how far safety has become.

When I saw the headline "Top Ten Most Rejectful Tracks", my gut instinct's first reaction was Valencia.



But by far most interesting for me is that these circuits all fit into two halves:
1. Over-funded and turned out dreadful, despite the fact that it really should have ended up at least half-decent. A case of good money getting thrown at bad rubbish.
2. Underfunded and not provided for, leading to fatal danger.

mario wrote:There were also those journalists who, in their reports, seemed to find the Hockenheimring similarly wearisome - there was one article by Jenkinson where he commented about the "monotonous dullness" of the circuit, of slate grey skies and dark backdrops that seemed to desaturate and suck the colour and life out of everything, particularly if the high temperatures left the circuit marooned in an island of listless heat.

From the research I did for my piece on Harald Ertl, it became quite clear that this was more an effect of Denis Jenkinson becoming a grumpy old man, disappointed that the new tracks were purpose-built with grandstands rather than 12km-long strips of public road surrounded by earth banks.