Mclaren to run Honda mills in 2015 per BBC

[Ferrim]

BTW, is the McLaren-Mercedes relationship the longest in history (apart from Ferrari, of course)? They will get up to 18 consecutive seasons together.

[Backmarker]

BTW, is the McLaren-Mercedes relationship the longest in history (apart from Ferrari, of course)? They will get up to 18 consecutive seasons together.

Tyrrell ran Cosworth engines for 17 and-a-half seasons before switching to Renault for the second half of 1985 and all 1986. BRM would have had a longer collaboration with themselves (1956-1977) had they not had one season using Climax engines in 1961 owing to their own engine not being ready in time for new regulations. So it might actually be the longest, which is quite incredible to think, especially as 1995 doesn't seem that long ago to old farts (by this forums standard) like me.

[Alextrax52]

This is probably a good reason to keep Binson Jitton on board for 2015 as someone who knows how the Honda engine works having raced it throughout his entire time at BAR and Honda. If he stays on board then they might get some ideas on how to make a good chassis

[takagi_for_the_win]

Have to say, it'll be weird calling them McLaren-Honda's, rather than McLaren-Mercedes. I mean, they've been powered by Merc since before I was born, it's always rolled off the tongue quite well for me.

[Alextrax52]

. I mean, they've been powered by Merc since before I was born.

Same here but that's F1 for you. Change is always afoot in this sport

[Backmarker]

Have to say, it'll be weird calling them McLaren-Honda's, rather than McLaren-Mercedes. I mean, they've been powered by Merc since before I was born, it's always rolled off the tongue quite well for me.

Same here but that's F1 for you. Change is always afoot in this sport

Oh God, I feel like I must be the only adult here!

[Zetec]

This is probably a good reason to keep Binson Jitton on board for 2015 as someone who knows how the Honda engine works having raced it throughout his entire time at BAR and Honda. If he stays on board then they might get some ideas on how to make a good chassis

You mean Jenson Button? Why always giving drivers insulting names? This is really getting a bad habit in this forum...

Anyway, I don't think Button can bring any advantage to McLaren. You can't compare these engines. The engines Button raced were introduced in 2000 and 2006 (Honda RA000E V10 + Honda RA806E V8). Now Honda will bring a turbocharged 1.6 liter engine. It's like comparing fish and meat.

[mario]

BTW, is the McLaren-Mercedes relationship the longest in history (apart from Ferrari, of course)? They will get up to 18 consecutive seasons together.

Tyrrell ran Cosworth engines for 17 and-a-half seasons before switching to Renault for the second half of 1985 and all 1986. BRM would have had a longer collaboration with themselves (1956-1977) had they not had one season using Climax engines in 1961 owing to their own engine not being ready in time for new regulations. So it might actually be the longest, which is quite incredible to think, especially as 1995 doesn't seem that long ago to old farts (by this forums standard) like me.

From what I have seen, it is indeed the longest engine supply partnership that has existed between two separate outfits (McLaren and Mercedes HPE), given that their contract expires in 2014. All in all, it is a remarkably lengthy partnership given how rapidly the field has changed since then - eight different outfits have disappeared completely, another four have completely different owners and three different tyre manufacturers have come and gone from the sport altogether.
Speaking of Cosworth, though, McLaren also had a pretty lengthy relationship with them too - they ran the DFV from 1968 to partway through the 1983 season (switching to the TAG-Porsche engine for the closing races that season), so they probably have both the longest and second longest engine supply deals in F1 history.

This is probably a good reason to keep Binson Jitton on board for 2015 as someone who knows how the Honda engine works having raced it throughout his entire time at BAR and Honda. If he stays on board then they might get some ideas on how to make a good chassis

You mean Jenson Button? Why always giving drivers insulting names? This is really getting a bad habit in this forum...

Anyway, I don't think Button can bring any advantage to McLaren. You can't compare these engines. The engines Button raced were introduced in 2000 and 2006 (Honda RA000E V10 + Honda RA806E V8). Now Honda will bring a turbocharged 1.6 liter engine. It's like comparing fish and meat.

Quite - the V6's will have completely different characteristics to the earlier V10's and V8's (the target is to have much broader power curves compared to those engines and the quest for higher revs has been reversed - Renault have indicated that their engine probably won't rev beyond 12,500rpm, even though they're allowed to go up to 15,000rpm, because the fuel flow limits and frictional losses at those rpm's would cost them more power than they could gain). In fact, Honda are probably hoping that their V6 doesn't behave entirely like their older engines, because one criticism of their older engines was that the usable power curve was narrower than their rivals.

[Alextrax52]

Blame East Londoner who came up with Bunsen Jetton and someone else came up with Benson Jutton so i to give my nickname for him.

[Londoner]

Blame East Londoner who came up with Bunsen Jetton and someone else came up with Benson Jutton so i to give my nickname for him.

Ah, but it wasn't me who came up with Bunsen. It was a Murrayism that I discovered.

[Alextrax52]

Blame East Londoner who came up with Bunsen Jetton and someone else came up with Benson Jutton so i to give my nickname for him.

Ah, but it wasn't me who came up with Bunsen. It was a Murrayism that I discovered.

Ok you were the one who used it the earliest and originally used it when he's shockingly bad (Monaco and Canada 2012) nowadays we seem to use it all the time

[Salamander]

Blame East Londoner who came up with Bunsen Jetton and someone else came up with Benson Jutton so i to give my nickname for him.

Ah, but it wasn't me who came up with Bunsen. It was a Murrayism that I discovered.

Ok you were the one who used it the earliest and originally used it when he's shockingly bad (Monaco and Canada 2012) nowadays we seem to use it all the time

All the time? I can't recall being used for ages.

[Onxy Wrecked]

This is probably a good reason to keep Binson Jitton on board for 2015 as someone who knows how the Honda engine works having raced it throughout his entire time at BAR and Honda. If he stays on board then they might get some ideas on how to make a good chassis

You mean Jenson Button? Why always giving drivers insulting names? This is really getting a bad habit in this forum...

Anyway, I don't think Button can bring any advantage to McLaren. You can't compare these engines. The engines Button raced were introduced in 2000 and 2006 (Honda RA000E V10 + Honda RA806E V8). Now Honda will bring a turbocharged 1.6 liter engine. It's like comparing fish and meat.

The Honda that would appear in F1 would be more like the ones in the IndyCar series on both size and turbo driven nature. Not promising given that out of the fastest qualifiers you won't find a Honda above 11th fastest. It's not just fish and meat, but more like fish and meat flavoured tofu! I would go as far as saying that it would be a sitting duck at Monza.

[dinizintheoven]

Oh God, I feel like I must be the only adult here!

Worry ye not. When I were a lad, if I'd been watching F1 when I was still an embryo, there'd have been some bloke called Willi Kauhsen trying to make a Lotus 79 out of a few cardboard boxes and some wheels nicked from a VW Beetle, nobody had any idea who Ron Dennis was, drivers got drunk on the podium (actually, that's not so different today, is it, Kimi?), everyone in the stands all wore flares and instead of tyre barriers there were dry stone walls with sheep at the side of the track. And if you tell the kids that these days, they won't believe you. They won't!

[CoopsII]

Oh God, I feel like I must be the only adult here!

Its a groomers paradise...

[IdeFan]

This is probably a good reason to keep Binson Jitton on board for 2015 as someone who knows how the Honda engine works having raced it throughout his entire time at BAR and Honda. If he stays on board then they might get some ideas on how to make a good chassis

You mean Jenson Button? Why always giving drivers insulting names? This is really getting a bad habit in this forum...

Anyway, I don't think Button can bring any advantage to McLaren. You can't compare these engines. The engines Button raced were introduced in 2000 and 2006 (Honda RA000E V10 + Honda RA806E V8). Now Honda will bring a turbocharged 1.6 liter engine. It's like comparing fish and meat.

The Honda that would appear in F1 would be more like the ones in the IndyCar series on both size and turbo driven nature. Not promising given that out of the fastest qualifiers you won't find a Honda above 11th fastest. It's not just fish and meat, but more like fish and meat flavoured tofu! I would go as far as saying that it would be a sitting duck at Monza.

The Honda Indycar engines are produced by Honda Performance Development, a US based subsidiary that is responsible for it's US based racing (and also engines for it's European sportscar effort, which is derived from it's ALMS program).

We don't know where it's new F1 engine will be produced yet, but historically they have handled F1 development in house in Japan, I wouldn't expect their F1 program to have anything to do with their Indycar program.

[Onxy Wrecked]

[

The Honda Indycar engines are produced by Honda Performance Development, a US based subsidiary that is responsible for it's US based racing (and also engines for it's European sportscar effort, which is derived from it's ALMS program).

We don't know where it's new F1 engine will be produced yet, but historically they have handled F1 development in house in Japan, I wouldn't expect their F1 program to have anything to do with their Indycar program.

I noticed that the F1 engines (1.6L) will be even smaller than the IndyCar engines (2.2L) currently are which leaves the Japan option as quite viable.

[go_Rubens]

[

The Honda Indycar engines are produced by Honda Performance Development, a US based subsidiary that is responsible for it's US based racing (and also engines for it's European sportscar effort, which is derived from it's ALMS program).

We don't know where it's new F1 engine will be produced yet, but historically they have handled F1 development in house in Japan, I wouldn't expect their F1 program to have anything to do with their Indycar program.

I noticed that the F1 engines (1.6L) will be even smaller than the IndyCar engines (2.2L) currently are which leaves the Japan option as quite viable.

The situation of Honda handling F1 matters in Japan seems like a valid point, given that IndyCar uses different spec engines than F1 will use.

[nome66]

i found a Telmex Honda they could draw ideas from...

[Backmarker]

In other engine news: Williams to use Mercedes engines in 2014!

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Autosport or it didn't happen

[Backmarker]

Autosport or it didn't happen

Noch nicht.

[Klon]

Well, the source is one of the trustworthier ones in Germany from what I remember. Anyway, that'd throw a wench into things. Although I must admit the only thing weirder than Williams-Mercedes would be Williams-Ferrari.

[Backmarker]

Well, the source is one of the trustworthier ones in Germany from what I remember. Anyway, that'd throw a wench into things. Although I must admit the only thing weirder than Williams-Mercedes would be Williams-Ferrari.

Given the Toto Wolff link, it's believable.

[DanielPT]

Well, the source is one of the trustworthier ones in Germany from what I remember. Anyway, that'd throw a wench into things. Although I must admit the only thing weirder than Williams-Mercedes would be Williams-Ferrari.

Given the Toto Wolff link, it's believable.

Joe Saward is also saying, through 'his' spies, that Williams is switching to Mercedes and Toro Rosso is switching to Renault. With that, Renault will be at 4 teams (Whine Bull, Enstone, Toro Rosso and Caterham), Mercedes also at 4 (Mercedes, McLaren, Force India and Williams) and only Ferrari will have 2 (Ferrari and Sauber). Marussia-Ferrari for 2014 anyone?

Oh, and given the Marussia-McLaren ties, it wouldn't be out of order to think that eventually Marussia might switch to Honda in 2015 or later.

[CoopsII]

Autosport or it didn't happen

Noch nicht.

Agreed, are we not allowed to discuss things before the holy bible has had time to get involved?

[Divina_Galica]

Well, the source is one of the trustworthier ones in Germany from what I remember. Anyway, that'd throw a wench into things. Although I must admit the only thing weirder than Williams-Mercedes would be Williams-Ferrari.

Given the Toto Wolff link, it's believable.

Joe Saward is also saying, through 'his' spies, that Williams is switching to Mercedes and Toro Rosso is switching to Renault. With that, Renault will be at 4 teams (Whine Bull, Enstone, Toro Rosso and Caterham), Mercedes also at 4 (Mercedes, McLaren, Force India and Williams) and only Ferrari will have 2 (Ferrari and Sauber). Marussia-Ferrari for 2014 anyone?

Oh, and given the Marussia-McLaren ties, it wouldn't be out of order to think that eventually Marussia might switch to Honda in 2015 or later.

Marussia are quite close to a Ferrari deal for 2014 and are expected to get a cheaper deal if they keep Bianchi.

Lotus may go with Mercedes for 2014 as well as Williams as the Merc will be cheaper than the Renault package

DG

[DanielPT]

Lotus may go with Mercedes for 2014 as well as Williams as the Merc will be cheaper than the Renault package

DG

What about the supply limit? I know it was 3 and that was when there were 4 engine manufacturers, which they will be again in 2015. I would prefer things more or less even to be honest. I reckon that Mercedes is probably getting too much influence.

[pi314159]

Lotus may go with Mercedes for 2014 as well as Williams as the Merc will be cheaper than the Renault package

DG

What about the supply limit? I know it was 3 and that was when there were 4 engine manufacturers, which they will be again in 2015. I would prefer things more or less even to be honest. I reckon that Mercedes is probably getting too much influence.

I think it is quite even for 2014:

Renault: Red Bull, Lotus, Toro Rosso, Caterham
Mercedes: Mercedes, McLaren, Force India, Williams
Ferrari: Ferrari, Sauber, Marussia

What's wrong with that, especially considering Mercedes will lose McLaren in 2015?

[DanielPT]

I think it is quite even for 2014:

Renault: Red Bull, Lotus, Toro Rosso, Caterham
Mercedes: Mercedes, McLaren, Force India, Williams
Ferrari: Ferrari, Sauber, Marussia

What's wrong with that, especially considering Mercedes will lose McLaren in 2015?

It won't be, if, as Divina_Galica says, Lotus also switches to Mercedes. Also, it is not yet given that Marussia will have Ferrari although those are the indications.

[AndreaModa]

Christ people have short memories! Mercedes said a month or two ago that they're happy not supplying anymore teams than they currently are. I doubt Williams are going to switch to Mercedes, and Lotus definitely won't. Anyone making a link with Toto Wolff are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. He's selling his share in Williams to shut the German media up who keep banging on about a conflict of interest apparently (see the latest issue of F1 Racing).

[DanielPT]

Christ people have short memories! Mercedes said a month or two ago that they're happy not supplying anymore teams than they currently are. I doubt Williams are going to switch to Mercedes, and Lotus definitely won't. Anyone making a link with Toto Wolff are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. He's selling his share in Williams to shut the German media up who keep banging on about a conflict of interest apparently (see the latest issue of F1 Racing).

Yes, now that you talk about it, Mercedes said that. Regardless, Joe Saward, for what is worth (sometimes he manages to get a few right), is now saying that a Toro Rosso switch to Renault is 'anticipated' as is the Williams switch to Mercedes. He makes the connection with Toto Wolff no less. The deal between Williams and Mercedes is a bit strange though because it comes only 2 years after switching to Renault. Is the Renault package that much expensive?

[AndreaModa]

Christ people have short memories! Mercedes said a month or two ago that they're happy not supplying anymore teams than they currently are. I doubt Williams are going to switch to Mercedes, and Lotus definitely won't. Anyone making a link with Toto Wolff are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. He's selling his share in Williams to shut the German media up who keep banging on about a conflict of interest apparently (see the latest issue of F1 Racing).

Yes, now that you talk about it, Mercedes said that. Regardless, Joe Saward, for what is worth (sometimes he manages to get a few right), is now saying that a Toro Rosso switch to Renault is 'anticipated' as is the Williams switch to Mercedes. He makes the connection with Toto Wolff no less. The deal between Williams and Mercedes is a bit strange though because it comes only 2 years after switching to Renault. Is the Renault package that much expensive?

There's an article on Autosport saying the same thing, and I've no doubt that Toro Rosso will end up with Renault engines. The fact is though, Mercedes made it quite clear prior to all this furore that they weren't willing to go beyond their current supply agreements. Now obviously they'll loose McLaren in 2015, so it's likely that another team will come in, and maybe that will be Williams, but in the meantime, I expect Mercedes to stick with McLaren, themselves, and Force India.

[Divina_Galica]

Lotus may go with Mercedes for 2014 as well as Williams as the Merc will be cheaper than the Renault package

DG

What about the supply limit? I know it was 3 and that was when there were 4 engine manufacturers, which they will be again in 2015. I would prefer things more or less even to be honest. I reckon that Mercedes is probably getting too much influence.

I'm only quoting F1 Times:

http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/07626

DG

[CaptainGetz12]

Lotus may go with Mercedes for 2014 as well as Williams as the Merc will be cheaper than the Renault package

DG

What about the supply limit? I know it was 3 and that was when there were 4 engine manufacturers, which they will be again in 2015. I would prefer things more or less even to be honest. I reckon that Mercedes is probably getting too much influence.

I'm only quoting F1 Times:

http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/07626

DG

Well at least Red Bull took my advice and decided to actually name their engines Infiniti.

Im I the only one thinking that Nissan will eventually creep into F1 as well as they have done with other sports? (LMP, V8 Supercars...)

[nome66]

FINALLY red bull name their engines Infiniti. since V6s are slightly more relevant that a V8 powered Altima.

....or are they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EndhykHOfk

[Onxy Wrecked]

Im I the only one thinking that Nissan will eventually creep into F1 as well as they have done with other sports? (LMP, V8 Supercars...)

No, I know they will show up at some point with their NISMO Nissans.

[wsrgo]

Seems nobody wants Ferrari engines. There were rumours last year that Sauber were looking for Merc engines.
2014:
Mercedes: Mercedes, McLaren, Force India, Sauber, Williams
Renault: Red Bull (Infiniti), Lotus, Caterham, Toro Rosso
Ferrari: Ferrari
Mugen/Honda: Marussia
2015:
Mercedes: McLaren, Force India, Sauber, Williams
Renault: Red Bull (Infiniti), Caterham, Toro Rosso
Ferrari: Ferrari
Honda: McLaren, Marussia, Lotus.

[mario]

Christ people have short memories! Mercedes said a month or two ago that they're happy not supplying anymore teams than they currently are. I doubt Williams are going to switch to Mercedes, and Lotus definitely won't. Anyone making a link with Toto Wolff are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. He's selling his share in Williams to shut the German media up who keep banging on about a conflict of interest apparently (see the latest issue of F1 Racing).

Yes, now that you talk about it, Mercedes said that. Regardless, Joe Saward, for what is worth (sometimes he manages to get a few right), is now saying that a Toro Rosso switch to Renault is 'anticipated' as is the Williams switch to Mercedes. He makes the connection with Toto Wolff no less. The deal between Williams and Mercedes is a bit strange though because it comes only 2 years after switching to Renault. Is the Renault package that much expensive?

There's an article on Autosport saying the same thing, and I've no doubt that Toro Rosso will end up with Renault engines. The fact is though, Mercedes made it quite clear prior to all this furore that they weren't willing to go beyond their current supply agreements. Now obviously they'll loose McLaren in 2015, so it's likely that another team will come in, and maybe that will be Williams, but in the meantime, I expect Mercedes to stick with McLaren, themselves, and Force India.

According to Autosport, it looks like Caterham have confirmed they will be using Renault engines in 2014 (Fernandes has said that the deal with Renault ties into the wider plans that Renault has for its road car division, presumably referring to the revival of the Alpine name). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107630
In the same article they also seem to be fairly confident that Williams will be using the Mercedes turbo engine in 2014 (i.e. before McLaren and Mercedes part ways), saying that both sides seem to be close to reaching a deal. As the Mercedes engine is also reportedly cheaper than the Renault engine (which is why Williams are reportedly ditching Renault), they are also reporting that Lotus might also switch to either Ferrari or Mercedes, so Mercedes might be powering themselves, Lotus, Williams and Force India from 2015 onwards, with McLaren also a customer in 2014.

Joe Saward is also saying, through 'his' spies, that Williams is switching to Mercedes and Toro Rosso is switching to Renault. With that, Renault will be at 4 teams (Whine Bull, Enstone, Toro Rosso and Caterham), Mercedes also at 4 (Mercedes, McLaren, Force India and Williams) and only Ferrari will have 2 (Ferrari and Sauber). Marussia-Ferrari for 2014 anyone?

Oh, and given the Marussia-McLaren ties, it wouldn't be out of order to think that eventually Marussia might switch to Honda in 2015 or later.

I believe that, in an interview with James Allen, Marussia seemed to confirm that they will go with Ferrari engines for 2014 - perhaps Ferrari are offering more lenient terms to them for running Bianchi (it may be that other teams are not keen on their engines simply on cost grounds - Ferrari's customer engine deals have often been fairly expensive).
However, there is a hint from Autosport that Lotus are considering Ferrari engines, so Ferrari could potentially have more customers in 2014 than they do now - and if that did happen, then, ironically, the outfit that was keenest on the turbo engines (Renault Sport) may have the fewest customers come 2014.

[andrew2209]

I heard a rumour somewhere that Lotus were considering developing their own engines (which can't go any worse than the Indycar ones did). Do Lotus actually still have any ties with Renault?