End of the road for Sauber?

Post by **Londoner** » 03 Apr 2016, 21:56

Lots of worrying rumours flying around Twitter at the moment that we may have seen the Sauber team for the final time in Formula One. Apparently they are so cash strapped that they cannot afford to fly to China for the next race. Martin Brundle alluded to this rumour whilst commentating mid-race.

Given Monisha Kaltenborn wasn't at Bahrain this weekend, the situation looks dire at Hinwil.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 03 Apr 2016, 22:32

Yeah saw this too. Someone on reddit reported that Dutch media had covered the same rumour, so something must be going around. Not good news at all, especially as there was meant to be rumours of them securing a title sponsor soon.

gnrpoison · Post by **gnrpoison** » 03 Apr 2016, 23:14

Be a shame if it is
1993 - 2016, 24 seasons of F1 wonder if that is longer then Ligier, Tyrrell, Brabham managed?

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 03 Apr 2016, 23:28

gnrpoison wrote:Be a shame if it is
1993 - 2016, 24 seasons of F1 wonder if that is longer then Ligier, Tyrrell, Brabham managed?

Ligier - 21 seasons (1976-1996), 26 seasons counting Prost Grand Prix (1976-2001)
Tyrrell - 29 seasons as a constructor (1970-98), 31 seasons counting Matra International (1968-98). And no, I won't count BAR onwards given the massive transformation the team underwent.
Brabham - 26 seasons (1962-87), plus 4 seasons (1989-92), missing the 1988 season due to a change in ownership.

gnrpoison · Post by **gnrpoison** » 03 Apr 2016, 23:35

Simtek wrote:
gnrpoison wrote:Be a shame if it is
1993 - 2016, 24 seasons of F1 wonder if that is longer then Ligier, Tyrrell, Brabham managed?

Ligier - 21 seasons (1976-1996), 26 seasons counting Prost Grand Prix (1976-2001)
Tyrrell - 29 seasons as a constructor (1970-98), 31 seasons counting Matra International (1968-98). And no, I won't count BAR onwards given the massive transformation the team underwent.
Brabham - 26 seasons (1962-87), plus 4 seasons (1989-92), missing the 1988 season due to a change in ownership.

So very close then, think Minardi were 1985 - 2005 and Arrows were 1978 - 2002 so in those brackets as well. Yh can see the reckoning for Tyrrell being the same with Matra/Tyrrell BAR/Honda Brawn/Mercedes split like with Stewart Jaguar and Red Bull or Jordan, Midland, Spyker and Force India. Have to say I am amazed they survived so long since BMW left, apart from 2012 always felt they were on a stay of execution.

watka · Post by **watka** » 04 Apr 2016, 12:33

Sauber are looking like they might well be the slowest team on the grid, or at least I wouldn't be surprised if Manor and Renault had out-developed them come the second half of the season. Given their identity as a Swiss team, I can't see them being bought out as it is surely not as desirable as a team in Motorsport Valley, UK. Look at Prost, nothing has happened with their base since they left F1.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 04 Apr 2016, 13:53

Sauber have always been one of my favourite teams, lets hope they can at least finish the season

AdrianBelmonte_ · Post by **AdrianBelmonte_** » 04 Apr 2016, 14:11

They need to take cash from literally everywhere to at least finish the season

Plus if they stay for '17 they will sign Rio Haryanto, you heard it here first

Post by **Nuppiz** » 04 Apr 2016, 15:08

Quick, someone call Colin Kolles!

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 04 Apr 2016, 15:18

I think that Sauber's biggest problem is that they're so isolated. They're not a junior set-up for a parent team (like Haas, Manor, Toro Rosso are for Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull), and they're not subsidised by a road car manufacturer (like McHonda and Renault).

It's why neither they, nor Force India has a sustainable future in the sport, and why Williams may start to find themselves in an uncomfortable position.

Post by **Miguel98** » 04 Apr 2016, 16:03

Aislabie wrote:I think that Sauber's biggest problem is that they're so isolated. They're not a junior set-up for a parent team (like Haas, Manor, Toro Rosso are for Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull), and they're not subsidised by a road car manufacturer (like McHonda and Renault).

It's why neither they, nor Force India has a sustainable future in the sport, and why Williams may start to find themselves in an uncomfortable position.

Well, to a certain point, both Williams and Force India share technical alliances with Mercedes. And a lot of Mercedes drivers have found themselves in either Force India or Mercedes grounds: Paul Di Resta, Wehrlein (he drove a test with FI IIRC) or Gary Paffett.

Post by **Ataxia** » 04 Apr 2016, 16:14

It's not much of a surprise, considering they're probably still paying off Giedo van der Garde after taking his money and doing a runner. Kaltenborn's apparently been scrabbling around in Switzerland for more sponsorship, but having gone from a reasonable financial position to a hand-to-mouth existence must raise some questions about her managerial abilities.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 04 Apr 2016, 16:15

Miguel98 wrote:
Aislabie wrote:I think that Sauber's biggest problem is that they're so isolated. They're not a junior set-up for a parent team (like Haas, Manor, Toro Rosso are for Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull), and they're not subsidised by a road car manufacturer (like McHonda and Renault).

It's why neither they, nor Force India has a sustainable future in the sport, and why Williams may start to find themselves in an uncomfortable position.

Well, to a certain point, both Williams and Force India share technical alliances with Mercedes. And a lot of Mercedes drivers have found themselves in either Force India or Mercedes grounds: Paul Di Resta, Wehrlein (he drove a test with FI IIRC) or Gary Paffett.

Agreed, but I think that kinda ended at the end of last year when they got Wehrlein into Manor. Although that may have had just as much to do with contracts and things (I don't know that there were any race seats available at either Force India or Williams) but with their sheer financial muscle I imagine that Mercedes could have elbowed out an under-performing Hulkenberg if they really wanted to.

Post by **Londoner** » 04 Apr 2016, 16:47

Aislabie wrote:I think that Sauber's biggest problem is that they're so isolated. They're not a junior set-up for a parent team (like Haas, Manor, Toro Rosso are for Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull), and they're not subsidised by a road car manufacturer (like McHonda and Renault).

It's why neither they, nor Force India has a sustainable future in the sport, and why Williams may start to find themselves in an uncomfortable position.

Williams have diversified into engineering and hybrid technology in the last few years, so unlike Sauber they do have a fallback should the FOM monies reduce after this season.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 04 Apr 2016, 18:31

What we want is BMW to buy themselves back in, with the glorious overdue return of Quick Nick Lars Heidfeld!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Apr 2016, 18:41

Rob Dylan wrote:What we want is BMW to buy themselves back in, with the glorious overdue return of Quick Nick Lars Heidfeld!

The future of Formula 1: Wehrlein at Mercedes vs Wittmann at BMW?

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 04 Apr 2016, 21:18

East Londoner wrote:
Aislabie wrote:I think that Sauber's biggest problem is that they're so isolated. They're not a junior set-up for a parent team (like Haas, Manor, Toro Rosso are for Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull), and they're not subsidised by a road car manufacturer (like McHonda and Renault).

It's why neither they, nor Force India has a sustainable future in the sport, and why Williams may start to find themselves in an uncomfortable position.

Williams have diversified into engineering and hybrid technology in the last few years, so unlike Sauber they do have a fallback should the FOM monies reduce after this season.

I knew they did something over at Williams Advanced Engineering - although no idea what (thanks for the extra info!) - which was why I'd not grouped them with Force India. Do you know whether the F1 Team helps fund WAE, or vice versa?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Apr 2016, 21:26

Aislabie wrote:I knew they did something over at Williams Advanced Engineering - although no idea what (thanks for the extra info!) - which was why I'd not grouped them with Force India. Do you know whether the F1 Team helps fund WAE, or vice versa?

Pretty sure WAE makes a profit while the F1 team has been making a loss in recent years. But they do try to keep the two entities separate, so that if one goes down, it doesn't drag the other down with it. That's what nearly happened to Lola in 1997, and why Eric Broadley ended up having to sell to Martin Birrane.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 04 Apr 2016, 23:19

We all knew they were possibly falling towards this, but not after two races of a season... if we lose a team in this manner (you know, again), it says a lot about F1 that we sort of already knew but now it isn't happening to one of the 2010 guys so it's even worse.

Besides losing a team, and such a long-lived one, it'll be sad to see Nasr join the ranks of drivers like [all Formula E drivers] who deserve to be in F1 but there just isn't the room for.

Post by **mario** » 05 Apr 2016, 05:49

Ataxia wrote:It's not much of a surprise, considering they're probably still paying off Giedo van der Garde after taking his money and doing a runner. Kaltenborn's apparently been scrabbling around in Switzerland for more sponsorship, but having gone from a reasonable financial position to a hand-to-mouth existence must raise some questions about her managerial abilities.

In many ways, Sauber's cash grab from van der Garde only made things worse for them - it damaged their reputation, making it harder to raise finance, whilst in the longer term their compensation payments to van der Garde have ended up costing them more money than they raised in the first place.

The rumours of cash flow issues have been swirling around Sauber for several years now - Hulkenberg's salary went unpaid in 2013, whilst there have been several rumours of Ferrari threatening to suspend their supplies of engines and gearboxes in 2012 and 2013 due to overdue payments.

It is true that the current financial climate makes things an uphill struggle for the team, but even in periods where the team was having more success - they finished 6th in the WCC in 2012 and managed to secure three podiums that year - there were already signs of trouble. I do agree that the situation does cast some questions over Kaltenborn's management, given that Williams have gone through a similar situation and have nevertheless managed to find a way out without resorting to the same extreme measures that Kaltenborn has.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 05 Apr 2016, 10:09

It wasn't that long ago there were rumours of a couple of mid-table teams going to the wall but then it sort of went away again. I always thought it was Force India and Sauber they were referring to and having read this thread and saw FI's performance on Sunday it's looking more and more likely.

How long until the tedious 'three car team' concept rears its ugly noggin again?

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 05 Apr 2016, 13:08

CoopsII wrote:How long until the tedious 'three car team' concept rears its ugly noggin again?

I give it until Bernie find this thread and decides it's such a great idea it gets implemented for the next race.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Apr 2016, 14:11

dinizintheoven wrote:
CoopsII wrote:How long until the tedious 'three car team' concept rears its ugly noggin again?

I give it until Bernie find this thread and decides it's such a great idea it gets implemented for the next race.

No need for it. With Red Bull effectively owning two teams, Mercedes edging closer to Manor and if Marchionne's manages to buy Sauber in the end you will end up not with 3 but for 4 cars per team although they will evidently have different names for image purposes.

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 05 Apr 2016, 14:16

http://www.grandprix247.com/2016/04/05/ ... eo-return/

A potential Lifeline for Sauber?

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 05 Apr 2016, 14:40

DanielPT wrote:No need for it. With Red Bull effectively owning two teams, Mercedes edging closer to Manor and if Marchionne's manages to buy Sauber in the end you will end up not with 3 but for 4 cars per team although they will evidently have different names for image purposes.

The only difference between your 4-car team thought and the previously floated 3-car team idea is that for the 3-car teams they would actually be driving the senior team's car. The idea being that there would be more cars competitive at the front. Personally I don't like the idea of 3-car teams. I read an interview with Luca di Montezemolo in this month's Motor Sport magazine in which he supported the idea of 3-car teams because he thought that fans would be more interested in seeing more cars at the front of the grid competing for wins (i.e. 3 ferraris and 3 mercedes cars). Again, I'm not in favor of 3-car teams, but the idea of "4-car" teams in the fashion that you mention might work a little better, giving the junior teams a decent chance at survival. However that might make the true independents like Williams, McLaren, Haas, and Force India much more vulnerable to financial difficulty and failure.

In the end, the current setup but with a cost cap would be the most ideal situation in my opinion. That way we'd have independent teams that would be somewhat competitive with the factory teams.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 05 Apr 2016, 14:59

Because the best option for Alfa Romeo would totally be to buy an ailing and bankrupt team rather than setting up a new team using the Haas method (which, with Grosjean and Gutierrez in the race seats, is a Ferrari B team anyway now).

More likely that it's bought out and becomes Rotstier than Alfa.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 05 Apr 2016, 15:28

Aislabie wrote:Because the best option for Alfa Romeo would totally be to buy an ailing and bankrupt team rather than setting up a new team using the Haas method (which, with Grosjean and Gutierrez in the race seats, is a Ferrari B team anyway now).

More likely that it's bought out and becomes Rotstier than Alfa.

It is a good option: Sauber have existing facilities and an existing workforce, whereas Haas had to be built from the ground up, which at the end of the day is far more expensive. Furthermore, Haas would most likely not be interested in running under the Alfa Romeo name, as it goes completely against his long-term goal of turning the team into a true independent outfit in its own right.

Marchionne seems pretty dead set on bringing back Alfa Romeo. This is very likely to be his best chance.

Post by **Ataxia** » 05 Apr 2016, 15:47

Simtek wrote:
Aislabie wrote:Because the best option for Alfa Romeo would totally be to buy an ailing and bankrupt team rather than setting up a new team using the Haas method (which, with Grosjean and Gutierrez in the race seats, is a Ferrari B team anyway now).

More likely that it's bought out and becomes Rotstier than Alfa.

It is a good option: Sauber have existing facilities and an existing workforce, whereas Haas had to be built from the ground up, which at the end of the day is far more expensive. Furthermore, Haas would most likely not be interested in running under the Alfa Romeo name, as it goes completely against his long-term goal of turning the team into a true independent outfit in its own right.

Marchionne seems pretty dead set on bringing back Alfa Romeo. This is very likely to be his best chance.

Sauber's facilities are excellent, they just haven't had the money to use them to their full potential. A FIAT takeover would be amazing, and as long as Nasr remains in F1 then it's win-win for me!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Apr 2016, 16:03

Ataxia wrote:
Simtek wrote:It is a good option: Sauber have existing facilities and an existing workforce, whereas Haas had to be built from the ground up, which at the end of the day is far more expensive. Furthermore, Haas would most likely not be interested in running under the Alfa Romeo name, as it goes completely against his long-term goal of turning the team into a true independent outfit in its own right.

Marchionne seems pretty dead set on bringing back Alfa Romeo. This is very likely to be his best chance.

Sauber's facilities are excellent, they just haven't had the money to use them to their full potential. A FIAT takeover would be amazing, and as long as Nasr remains in F1 then it's win-win for me!

Only if he goes to Williams, seeing as he is a Williams backed driver. I am sure FIAT would trial young Ferrari potential drivers. On top of my mind, they could line up Hulkenberg and Marciello. Together with Grosjean at Haas they can quickly compare all of them and avoid those Vettel-upsetting rumors of going with Ricciardo instead.

Post by **Miguel98** » 05 Apr 2016, 16:33

DanielPT wrote:
Ataxia wrote:
Simtek wrote:It is a good option: Sauber have existing facilities and an existing workforce, whereas Haas had to be built from the ground up, which at the end of the day is far more expensive. Furthermore, Haas would most likely not be interested in running under the Alfa Romeo name, as it goes completely against his long-term goal of turning the team into a true independent outfit in its own right.

Marchionne seems pretty dead set on bringing back Alfa Romeo. This is very likely to be his best chance.

Sauber's facilities are excellent, they just haven't had the money to use them to their full potential. A FIAT takeover would be amazing, and as long as Nasr remains in F1 then it's win-win for me!

Only if he goes to Williams, seeing as he is a Williams backed driver. I am sure FIAT would trial young Ferrari potential drivers. On top of my mind, they could line up Hulkenberg and Marciello. Together with Grosjean at Haas they can quickly compare all of them and avoid those Vettel-upsetting rumors of going with Ricciardo instead.

Marciello is no longer backed by Ferrari I think. Considering his performances the past two years, it's not a surprise... He can be so quick on his day, as good as Vandoorne (Belgium 2014), and then be reckless or an idiot (Catalunya 2015 comes ot my mind)...

I think if FIAT would turn them into Alfa Romeo, they would employ their chinese driver from F3 (who was actually fairly quick this weekend at Paul Ricard), Guanyu Zhou, and they would find a more experienced driver to lead the facility, but with obvious connections to Ferrari: Jean-Eric Vergne comes to my mind immediatelly.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 06 Apr 2016, 00:15

Problem number 1: Sauber's base isn't in Italy. Why would you have a factory Alfa team in Switzerland?

The more I think about it, the more I feel that outsourcing aspects of the manufacturing process is a sensible idea. It's ridiculous to think each team should be able to manufacture everything themselves, and most aren't doing that any more anyway. I guess that's what Max's ultimate idea was back in 2010 - by bringing Xtrac and Cosworth back into the fold. This has to be the way to do things. I said it before, but look at the 70s. Aside from chassis construction, everything was bought in. DFV engine, Hewland gearbox, etc, etc. I'm sure there's plenty of suppliers out there willing to supply if they can do so at a competitive cost that doesn't ruin them.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 06 Apr 2016, 04:02

Yes, the days when the team of that certain Max produced cars run by the team of a certain Frank...

Post by **mario** » 06 Apr 2016, 05:49

AndreaModa wrote:Problem number 1: Sauber's base isn't in Italy. Why would you have a factory Alfa team in Switzerland?

The more I think about it, the more I feel that outsourcing aspects of the manufacturing process is a sensible idea. It's ridiculous to think each team should be able to manufacture everything themselves, and most aren't doing that any more anyway. I guess that's what Max's ultimate idea was back in 2010 - by bringing Xtrac and Cosworth back into the fold. This has to be the way to do things. I said it before, but look at the 70s. Aside from chassis construction, everything was bought in. DFV engine, Hewland gearbox, etc, etc. I'm sure there's plenty of suppliers out there willing to supply if they can do so at a competitive cost that doesn't ruin them.

It could be argued that Haas has effectively become the modern embodiment of that concept, given that most of the manufacturing work on their car is outsourced to third parties, such as Dallara for the chassis.

To a certain extent, whilst Haas's success has been welcome, at the same time I can see their business model being used as an argument for loosening the restrictions on customer cars (if not full customer cars, we might see laxer rules on selling components to customer teams).

dinizintheoven wrote:
CoopsII wrote:How long until the tedious 'three car team' concept rears its ugly noggin again?

I give it until Bernie find this thread and decides it's such a great idea it gets implemented for the next race.

For what it is worth, according to an article on the Dailysportscar website, one of the preconditions that Audi has insisted on before entering F1 would be the right to enter additional cars "in the most important races". If the sport does make a serious effort to lure VW in, that might lead to a renewed push to allow third cars.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 06 Apr 2016, 09:33

If this is the end of the road for Sauber I won't be able to let go. It's unnatural, Sauber belongs to F1 and F1 belongs to Sauber.

Still I can't let go.

Ciaran · Post by **Ciaran** » 06 Apr 2016, 09:56

Personally, I don't see the point of a works team being the junior team to another, I just believe that if you're a works team you're subservient to no other teams.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 06 Apr 2016, 10:30

Regenmeister94 wrote:Personally, I don't see the point of a works team being the junior team to another, I just believe that if you're a works team you're subservient to no other teams.

Except when you depend on them completely to be midfield competitive like some are. And sure, you can be cheeky and managed to beat the main team here or there, but if you embarrass them on a regular basis you may find yourself going down the path of Super Aguri

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 06 Apr 2016, 11:07

Though that was more Honda's fault than theirs...

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 06 Apr 2016, 13:17

mario wrote:For what it is worth, according to an article on the Dailysportscar website, one of the preconditions that Audi has insisted on before entering F1 would be the right to enter additional cars "in the most important races". If the sport does make a serious effort to lure VW in, that might lead to a renewed push to allow third cars.

That was an April fools joke that particular article was.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/04/0 ... paign.html

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 06 Apr 2016, 13:26

roblomas52 wrote:
mario wrote:For what it is worth, according to an article on the Dailysportscar website, one of the preconditions that Audi has insisted on before entering F1 would be the right to enter additional cars "in the most important races". If the sport does make a serious effort to lure VW in, that might lead to a renewed push to allow third cars.

That was an April fools joke that particular article was.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/04/0 ... paign.html

Even so, at least half the conditions listed in that article are probably true :lol:

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 06 Apr 2016, 16:58

CoopsII wrote:If this is the end of the road for Sauber I won't be able to let go. It's unnatural, Sauber belongs to F1 and F1 belongs to Sauber.

Still I can't let go.

Well they started in sportscars. Maybe they can go back? It's infinitely cheaper than F1, assuming you don't try to outspend Audi.